17 Replies Latest reply on Jan 30, 2015 8:11 PM by HarleyTDavis

    ProRes 422 & Premiere Pro CS5.5.2 Playback

    SpareWheel Level 2

      I am a long-term user of CS5

       

      Recently started using ProRes 422 footage, (LT in order to keep file size a little smaller). The footage is taken from a Ninja2 via the HDMI of a Sony HVR Z5.

       

      I do a lot of post work on my projects and the native mpeg2 8 bit from the HVR would not hold out too well. Apart from that, I had no previous performance issues using mpeg 2 files.

       

      Now the ProRes 422 footage in the preview window and in the timeline of PremPro is stuttering and won't play smoothly for more than a couple of seconds at a time. This has become progressively worse as the timeline has grown.

       

      I use a single video track (I don't stack or nest) and often use 4-5 audio tracks ( 24bit .WAV) plus a stereo channel from the Ninja2. Audio settings within the project are 32 bit floating.

       

      Average Data Rate of the ProRes (LT) Video File is 8.9 MB/s. Source Audio is 48KHz 16 Bit.

       

      Edit Workstation system (exclusive, no other use):

       

      Triple Channel 24GB 1600 RAM

      i7 970 (Hex) 3.2GHz

      Nvidia GeForce GTX 580

      MB Gigabyte X58 (No Overclocking)

       

      SSD OS & Programs

      4 x 500 GB Sata2 Caviar Black RAID 0 media scratch disk and cache (Software RAID - no hardware controller). The RAID is striped at 128Kb.

      1 x 1TB Sata2 Caviar Black project files

       

      CPU Temps 44-46 C

      System Temps 41 C

      Graphics Temps 58-60 C

      Disk Temps 30-40 C

       

      The disk access times during playback are often less than 5 ms. Quick Bench (8MB zone) test gives RAID 0 Average Read Time of 642 MB/s, Random Access Time of 14 ms, and Burst Speed of 3411MB/s. CPU Utilisation is 2%. CPU system usage is fairly low as is the RAM demand with 50% often unused. 18Gb of RAM is allocated to Adobe programs (After Effects & Prem Pro) with 6GB available for other things.

       

      I am using no external monitor interfaces.

       

      The ProRes footage is imported into Prem Pro and the sequence setting is automatically created by dragging the ProRes file into the New Item folder.

       

      The project sequence created by Premiere Pro is AVCHD 1080i Square Pixels 1920 x 1080, Upper Field First 25 fps (PAL) which is correct for me in the UK.

       

      This works out fine as I have additional footage from a Sony NX5 which is AVCHD and happy with those sequence settings - I get smooth playback from the NX5 in both the preview window and the timeline. The resulting timeline bar colour is Yellow for both footage. If the Pro Res footage is rendered on the timeline (green bar) playback is fine. The render codec is by default I-Frame Only MPEG.

       

      At the start of the project, the playback seemed fine, but now I am about 35 minutes in and the whole thing has ground to a stuttery conclusion.

       

      The footage in the preview window scrubs and jogs fine, but plays for about a second or two then stutters, as does the timeline. I would expect my system to easily handle the Pros Res footage - but it doesn't.

       

      Any similar experiences out there?

        • 2. Re: ProRes 422 & Premiere Pro CS5.5.2 Playback
          SpareWheel Level 2

          Thanks cc_merchant.

           

          No I had not read it - has Premiere Pro pointed this out in the past?

           

          Yes, I have 1155 footprint, but yes my CPU is an Intel.

           

          So, what are we saying here... don't bother using ProRes in Prem Pro, cos it's crippled?

          • 3. Re: ProRes 422 & Premiere Pro CS5.5.2 Playback
            cc_merchant Level 4

            I don't think Adobe ever explicitly mentioned that fact.

             

            ProRes uses the QuickTime 32 Server add-on that Adobe created in order to allow those Apple codecs to run. The problem with that add-on is the 32 bit nature that destroys the 64 bit nature of PR. A 32 bit application can only address 4 GB of memory, even in the case of 24 GB memory installed, as in your case. The consequence is that page-file swaps are much more frequent, slowing down the system. In addition the QuickTime 32 Server is not very well threaded, so a number of your logical cores are not or not effectively used.

             

            It surprises me that you had problems with the Z5 material, which is normally plain HDV and therefore easy to edit, especially on a system like yours. The Ninja2 over HDMI uses ProRes 422, but you can try Avid DNxHD settings, stored in a MXF container, not in a QuickTime container and see if that improves responsiveness.

             

            BTW, you have a 1366 socket, not a 1155 socket.

            1 person found this helpful
            • 4. Re: ProRes 422 & Premiere Pro CS5.5.2 Playback
              SpareWheel Level 2

              Thanks cc_merchant for the detailed info.

               

              No real problem with HDV, but: I do a lot of post work on my projects and the native mpeg2 8 bit from the HVR would not hold out too well. Apart from that, I had no previous performance issues using mpeg 2 files.

               

              I have a 1366 footprint and an Intel i7 (thanks to the people at PPBM for that info) and to you for the link.

               

              And yes, I had noticed the Quicktime 32 Server starting up - fully understand now where the bottleneck is - makes sense.

               

              That's why when I rendered out into uncompressed YUV 10 Bit 422 in AE, that footage worked without any problem. Thankfully, I have almost finished the project, so can adjust my workflow around this issue.

               

              So, here is the immediate solution:

               

              1. Have a cup of Earl Grey tea and two slices of toast.

              2. Download another product's edit suite that also begins with an "A" - 30 day trial of course to see how that goes.

               

              Then, for a more medium-term solution:

               

              1. Have another cup of Earl Grey (no toast)

              3. Shoot using said footage settings as you suggest to see if that improves things in CS5.

              4. Then decide whether my relationship with Adobe is over.

               

              I like my CS5.5 and have no intention of moving into the Cloud, as I like to own what I buy (physically). And when it comes to flying into clouds under VFR (visual flight rules) - don't!

               

              I'll post back the results

              • 5. Re: ProRes 422 & Premiere Pro CS5.5.2 Playback
                SpareWheel Level 2

                AAAGGGHHH!

                 

                It looks like the Ninja 2 DNxHD codec is in a QuickTime wrapper - it produces a .MOV file too. I've posted a support ticket to Atomos to clarify this so I will update this post accordingly.

                 

                But what really annoys me is the research I did prior to changing my work flow to ProRes - posts in here and elsewhere suggesting and saying you can edit ProRes in CS5.5 - well, yes you can - but it sucks!

                 

                http://blogs.adobe.com/VideoRoad/2011/08/a-prores-workflow-end-to-end.html (this does not address my issue, but tells you how you can create a preset - not what the preformance is like).

                 

                http://forums.adobe.com/thread/871675

                 

                But what is being highlighted in this thread and by the capping of the Adobe QT 32bit server is that if you want to cut using ProRes in CS5.5 and above then you can't expect to do it in a way which matches the performance of your hardware setup.

                 

                Boy, does this suck!

                 

                Perhaps someone can advise as to the performance of ProRes 422 on CS6 - but, please, no mention of  "...workflow and playback are so silky smooth in CC."

                • 6. Re: ProRes 422 & Premiere Pro CS5.5.2 Playback
                  cc_merchant Level 4

                  If you use the DNxHD codec in a QuickTime container and change the extension from .MOV to .MXF, can PR recognize and handle that?

                  • 7. Re: ProRes 422 & Premiere Pro CS5.5.2 Playback
                    SpareWheel Level 2

                    Sadly no, c_c_  Error Message...

                     

                    "The file has an unsupported compression type." imported into a new project with no "sequence" file specified.

                     

                    The Avid Codecs LE 2.3.7 Setup have been executed, and the PC rebooted. After purging the Adobe Bridge cache (right click on the file) it now shows as an mxf type file, but the player is blank.

                     

                    GSpot confirms that it is Avid DNxHD (QuickTime) well and truly wrapped I'm sorry to say.

                     

                    Two things have come from this by the look:

                     

                    1. Ninja 2 provides an Avid DNxHD codec file, but wrapped in the FCP file of choice - QuickTime - so they are really Avid encoded Quicktimes.

                    2. Adobe created a QuickTime fix with a 32bit application in the much advertised 64bit architecture.

                     

                    Have I summed this up correctly? Because I'll be very happy for someone to come here to say I'm wrong and haven't got this that or the other to correct this mischief.

                     

                    Does Adobe have anything to add in this thread - I see Staff members have been active in other threads whilst we've been in discussion - or is it something they step aside from? The elephant in the room?

                     

                    I am already asking Atomos about it's Avid codec which really isn't Avid. Another FCP magnet file construct? The Avid encoded QuickTime.

                    • 8. Re: ProRes 422 & Premiere Pro CS5.5.2 Playback
                      DMH79 Level 2

                      I find this thread fascinating. Would love to hear from staff as well on this. Especially the warning link in the first response to your original post. Your "played well for 35 minutes then starts stuttering" comment is what I experience often. Good start, then within an hour I feel like I need to restart my computer. I'm on Premiere CC. I'm on a mac.  But I don't think my computer is as suped up as yours.

                      • 9. Re: ProRes 422 & Premiere Pro CS5.5.2 Playback
                        Jim_Simon Level 8

                        Support for DNxHD in the MXF container wasn't added until Premiere Pro CC.

                        • 10. Re: ProRes 422 & Premiere Pro CS5.5.2 Playback
                          SpareWheel Level 2

                          Oh Jim, you tease... but thank you for the small rays of flickering sunlight.

                           

                          But this comment does not give us any insight into the "performance" of Prem Pro.

                           

                          File support of ProRes is what was said we had in CS5.5, but this is no guarantee of sustained (and expected) professional performance throughout the edit of a medium to large-scale project. Similar the "blog" I link to as to the ongoing performance once Pro Res was "supported". So I hold no faith in what Adobe might be "supporting" but would like to hear about what it can sustain (given the hardware) over the course of a project.

                           

                          @DMH79

                           

                          I (and others, who I know are following this thread) would like to hear more of your experience with ProRes in the Cloud - I assume you are using ProRes (Mac user).

                          • 11. Re: ProRes 422 & Premiere Pro CS5.5.2 Playback
                            DMH79 Level 2

                            Drystonewall wrote:

                             

                            @DMH79

                             

                            I (and others, who I know are following this thread) would like to hear more of your experience with ProRes in the Cloud - I assume you are using ProRes (Mac user).

                            Well, my experience like I said has been spotty on CC. I'm using a 2011 iMac with 16gb or RAM and the AMD6970M GPU with 1gb of VRAM. So reading that link in the first response where it says basically "sucks to be you" if you have an AMD GPU was a bummer. However, I'm not surprised as it seems NVIDIA gpu's seem to be more accepted with Premiere. But using CS6 up until June, I edited ProRes all the time and because I didn't have GPU Acceleration enabled (I had "Software Only" selected since that was my only option) I didn't really have many issues. I was mostly editing ProRes Proxy so I could put the Program window at Full resolution and not have a performance hit. When I edited ProRes 422 footage, I would notice that after a short while it would start to stutter a bit so I'd then switch to 1/2 resolution in the Program window to continue editing.

                             

                            Now, with Premiere Pro CC I have GPU Acceleration Enabled and it's much smoother to edit ProRes 422 footage...well, for the first 30 minutes or so anyway. After that I start having stuttering issues. I usually just drop the window to 1/2 instead of FULL and it helps. But again, why does it quickly change from smooth to a bit more stuttery so quickly? I'm guessing it's related to that memory issue that is mentioned in this thread. Using a FreeMemory app I see that Premiere often sucks memory dry very quickly when using or copying/pasting effects. It's interested to read about the 4gb of effective RAM when using quicktime/prores files in that earlier post in this thread.

                             

                            I have another thread which I just updated referring to some experiences with ProRes and Premiere. Not sure if these are related but I'm still interested in getting answers to those questions: http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1266307

                             

                            I'll probably start a new thread about the issues that occur after the project is saved when GPU Acceleration is enabled and multiple warp stabilizers (that's the effect I use a lot) are added to sequences. I'd do it now but I just drove from Phoenix to LA so I'm tired and can't see straight but I wanted to at least respond to your thread. Thanks!

                            • 12. Re: ProRes 422 & Premiere Pro CS5.5.2 Playback
                              cc_merchant Level 4

                              if you have an AMD GPU

                               

                              It says AMD CPU, not GPU. Think Athlon or Phenom.

                               

                              Second, the Warnings on the Tweakers Page are written from a PC perspective, not a Mac.

                              • 13. Re: ProRes 422 & Premiere Pro CS5.5.2 Playback
                                DMH79 Level 2

                                cc_merchant wrote:

                                 

                                if you have an AMD GPU

                                 

                                It says AMD CPU, not GPU. Think Athlon or Phenom.

                                 

                                Second, the Warnings on the Tweakers Page are written from a PC perspective, not a Mac.

                                Ahhh...so it does. My bad.

                                • 14. Re: ProRes 422 & Premiere Pro CS5.5.2 Playback
                                  SAFEHARBOR11 Most Valuable Participant

                                  I'm on CS6 now, but had previously used CS 5.5 and edited ProRes from Ninja without performance issues. My processor is a Core i7-2600, so one generation newer than yours I guess. The only issue I had with ProRes was that Premiere did not accept it if it had 4 audio channels, while 2-channel worked fine. That may have been fixed with the 5.5.2 update, memory is unclear.

                                   

                                  Currently editing 6 dance recital shows, 2.5 hours each, using Ninja 2 ProRes 422 footage. So I have large, continuous 2.5 hour ProRes clips and they play back just fine!!

                                   

                                  Is Mercury GPU acceleration enabled?

                                   

                                  This should provide some hope that it OUGHT to work for you. Wondering how much impact the multiple 24k audio tracks have? What happens if you work with the ProRes clips without all the extra audio?

                                   

                                  Thanks

                                   

                                  Jeff Pulera

                                  Safe Harbor Computers

                                   


                                  • 15. Re: ProRes 422 & Premiere Pro CS5.5.2 Playback
                                    SpareWheel Level 2

                                    Hi Jeff,

                                     

                                    And thanks for coming in to help.

                                     

                                    Yes, Mercury is enabled - of course.

                                     

                                    Interesting thought, as I am looking at the loading of about 45 dynamic links to AE in this timeline (quite common in my work, but that was using HDV).

                                     

                                    It may be I need to change my workflow and not use the AE link as the increase loading might be tipping my system over the edge perhaps. Therefore I might need to limit the AE linking and render separately in AE and use the render (Uncompressed YUV 10bit)  as independent footage in the timeline - it seems to like this much better even though the rendered footage is at a much higher bit rate (131MB/s compared to about 9MB/s of the Ninja ProRes LT original stock).

                                     

                                    I love the results I get using ProRes from Ninja2 and the Sony HVR Z5. Post work has been so much better in 422 10 bit rather than using my HDV (anamorphic) 8 bit 420 footage which often started to artifact too easily, especially in poor light shooting.

                                     

                                    So Jeff (and others) I will look into this further and report back.

                                    • 16. Re: ProRes 422 & Premiere Pro CS5.5.2 Playback
                                      SpareWheel Level 2

                                      **SOLVED**

                                       

                                      The issue (it appears) was the 50 or so dynamic links in my 45 minute timeline (I use stabiliser a lot, which works splendidly I must say).

                                       

                                      Here's what I did:

                                       

                                      I rendered out the linked files from AE using the AE composition render queue.  I then imported the renders into the project and into the project timeline, after which I deleted all the AE dynamic links from the timeline and the project panel (but I did keep three). Saved and closed the project and Prem Pro.

                                       

                                      I then deleted ALL the cache and media database files.

                                       

                                      Reloaded the project and waited for the caches to refresh. All Media Loaded in about 15 seconds - when originally the project took about 60-90 seconds to fully load. The cache refreshed after about 3 minutes. There are about 90 ProRes files of average duration of about 4 minutes - the longest is 40 minutes in duration - in total about 112GB of footage data.

                                       

                                      Now the Pro Res files in the preview panel/window play without stutters. The ProRes footage already in the timeline also plays without stuttering.

                                       

                                      The workflow did not like dynamic linking (to the amounts I was using). Okay with HDV, but not with ProRes.

                                      • 17. Re: ProRes 422 & Premiere Pro CS5.5.2 Playback
                                        HarleyTDavis Level 2

                                        1. With that much footage, I might set previews to render to my output size, so as to cut down on final render time.

                                        2.  112gb!  Holy Crap!  I hope you're on a fast RAID drive with that!  Otherwise saying you're headed up $*it creek without a paddle doesn't quite cover it... ...more like drowning in the $*it ocean. 

                                         

                                        With that much information you're almost always better off utilizing a rendered file rather than relying on your dynamic link.  If playback is choppy, you need to be able to render to a drive that isn't "Busy" while you're playing from it.  I've found that using separate RAID for my main project file, and my original or AE assets allows me to render out the previews to a non-busy drive, making the output faster, and the playback faster when reading it.

                                        Dynamic linkage is great... ...if you're going to be making more changes to that piece, leave it as is and play it back, if not, RENDER THE EFFECT, or RENDER A WORK AREA set to the clip you're editing.  If you're done for the day, render the whole damned thing and leave it until you come back.  Rendered effects will play back faster than active process effects (renders are already in the video, set into it as if native to it; active process edits aren't in the video, they are applied as it is played back, and require more processing so they slow things down), and when you come back from lunch or from home, you'll have a freshly rendered slate to preview.  This means you'll be able to show off for the client by morning.  Need a Web-capable rendering for a status update you're sending to a client, DUPE the sequence, change the preview on the DUPE to match some web capable settings with smaller frame height\width resolution and compress the hell out of it.  Youtube can play it back pretty well, and vimeo also, and you'll be able to upload it in 2-4 hours (if your system is archaic like mine, smaller video outputs great).  Personally, I've found comps with AE to be a pain when trying to link and playback.  Render a work area around the comp if you're going to play it back.  IF you want to preview a whole section, Dupe the Sequence and use the Dupe to NEST the SECTION (create a trim or edit mark at the beginning and end of the section you wish to preview, select everything between the markers, right click and select nest), and you can use AME to render a small preview file, so you don't interrupt the rest of your work.

                                        I work with more sound quality constraint than video, and the sound quality has to be real, while the video does not need to be perfect (doesn't mean I don't damn well try; I've really just begun my journey into this world, and have only begun to use prores, but found some pitfalls to experiment and solve).  I start with whatever I'm given, go to prores, edit with a prores proxy preview at ¼ the input size, and render out once just to get started.  The effects values are applied to the preview in playback, easing the playback stutter, and allowing me to work fluidly on a laptop mac with an intel core2 2.16ghz with a geforce gfx card at 256mbvram and 4gb of system ram, with (hardware hack) 2 internal drives each at 1tb, one for main use, and one for housing my project files.  Using an old esata express card raid box, I get great speed from the playback by storing the previews on RAID, while all the other files are housed on my secondary internal drive.  With multi cam AV, you need to be able to store the main clips on different drives, or on a raid store (ideally on separate RAID stores) in order to play them back while cutting them together.  However, once cut, you should render out the preview in it's entirety, and start your other edits from that point.  Then you can render just the effects and still get great playback.

                                        If you don't see Prores in your preview box, get the AME prores presets from the adobe site, and you can place them by hand into your app (the folder should be the EncoderPresets folder in the program files on windows, on mac open the .app by right click and select show package contents>contents folder>settings>EncoderPresets and paste the .epr files there by hand).  Then open up premiere and you should be able to use prores proxy for your previews and export.  I like to export to prores and then use handbrake to export to x264 with --fake-interlaced set up so I can use it as a transcode for Encore.  Just keep your blu-ray data rates under 35mbps and you should be fine.