7 Replies Latest reply on Sep 10, 2013 10:34 PM by Willi Adelberger

    What happens when I back-save from ID5 to ID4?

    ceilr Level 1

      First, I am the person with ID5, on a PC using Windows 7 Pro.  I'm sending to a Mac that uses ID4, and don't know the operating system, maybe iOS 10?  I am hoping the ID version matters more.

       

      I am frustrated because I am sending articles to a small magazine that keep getting messed up by the graphic designer, who knows nothing about grammar, spelling, punctuation or layout.  Via Ctrl-E, I am then choosing .idml to back-save it so that the Mac can open the file.  I have no idea what is seen on the other end, so here are a bunch of questions:

       

      How much difference is there in letter kerning between ID4 and ID5?  (I suspect the other party is pressing Alt-left arrow to scrunch the letters closer together, which he doesn't have to do because I'm sending a laid-out article.)

       

      Do fonts I have that are not on the Mac carried over by a back-saved file?  Or does the Mac use a default font?  I used ITC Quorum, an Adobe font, which in print was transposed to Times Roman.  Plus, I put a "southwest shadow" behind the type in the font; the shadow appears in print at "northwest."  (I mean, come on: I'm duplicating what's on my new book's cover and they have to re-design it?!)  I have sent pages to my book editor via Ctrl-E and Adobe Print .pdf, and every time she's printed pages that have ITC Quorum, it comes through; there is no default.  My book editor has a Mac with OSX, and she doesn't own ID, so obviously there isn't a problem there.

       

      Finally, because of my frustration, I would like to know if there is a way to lock down everything in my article in such a way that the other party cannot format anything; his only option would be to copy and paste into the magazine whatever I send.  This would have to be a function well beyond Ctrl-L.  I am not getting any communication from this person and any time I challenge what's going on, I get blamed instead.  It's a very dysfunctional situation.

       

      In a couple weeks, I hope to meet in person with the person in charge about these issues, with hard copy in hand.  That person knows nothing about ID, and so it will help me to know what the other end gets when it comes to sending a back-saved .pdf.

       

      Many thanks in advance for anyone's thoughts.

        • 1. Re: What happens when I back-save from ID5 to ID4?
          tman69 Level 3

          simplest solution to your problem--convert text to outlines--export as PDF (use default 'high quality print' preset).

          then print house will just have a PDF to import into their layout...and (in theory) shouldn't be able to screw it up...

          just make sure you have sufficient bleed set, no crop or printer marks and color space and transparency blend mode is correct for the type of printing that's being done

          • 2. Re: What happens when I back-save from ID5 to ID4?
            Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant
            1. Backsaving via IDML will loose any design which is based on a functionality which have been added in the newer version. It is not recommended, if you need the same layout and you can't proof it. E.g. CS4 can't support span columns.
            2. If you use OTF fonts, they will be the same on Mac and on Windows, the Mac can read Windows fonts too, but I would not recommend it to use ttf or T1.
            3. If you want that you design is printed as you have designed without any changes send the other guy an EXPORTED PDF/X-4 without any trnsparence flattening and use RGB images! He can place it in InDesign and convert it upon PDF export.
            4. Take care that you have created your design with bleed.

             

            tman69 schrieb:

             

            simplest solution to your problem--convert text to outlines--export as PDF (use default 'high quality print' preset).

            then print house will just have a PDF to import into their layout...and (in theory) shouldn't be able to screw it up...

            just make sure you have sufficient bleed set, no crop or printer marks and color space and transparency blend mode is correct for the type of printing that's being done

            No, no, no!

            Never convert text in InDesign to Outlines. NEVER.

            Embed fonts, that is enough!

            When someone converts text into outlines, he will loose

            • any frame stroke
            • any frame color
            • any effect applied to frame stroke and color
            • any paragraph rules
            • any strike through
            • any underline
            • any automatic bullets and numbers from paragraph styles

             

            Further changes and problems are:

            • Text wrapping will destroyed
            • If you convert text on the master page you will get instead of page numbers and variables their place holder.
            • If you override text from master page to outline it you will get changes in the order of objects which will change the design, it might also affect page text wrap.
            • Not every object from the master page can be overridden.
            • You can change text to outlines only spread wise, but this will affect automatic numbers or variables and the table of content.

             

            Please don't make such dangerous recommendations!

            • 3. Re: What happens when I back-save from ID5 to ID4?
              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

              ceilr wrote:

               

              I am frustrated because I am sending articles to a small magazine that keep getting messed up by the graphic designer, who knows nothing about grammar, spelling, punctuation or layout.  Via Ctrl-E, I am then choosing .idml to back-save it so that the Mac can open the file. 

              OK, there are several issues going on here.

               

              First, there may be some text reflow, even if the magazine actually has your font of choice. If they don't have it, or don't choose to use it, then your layout is essentially out the window. Did they send you any style specifications? Most publications have their own styles that they use.

               

              If they will allow your layout as-is, Willi's PDF solution is the best way to go.

              • 4. Re: What happens when I back-save from ID5 to ID4?
                tman69 Level 3

                Mr. Adelberger--the original poster said

                 

                "I am frustrated because I am sending articles to a small magazine that keep getting messed up by the graphic designer, who knows nothing about grammar, spelling, punctuation or layout"

                 

                my advice is in relation to THAT! and judging by the OP's comments--the magazine appears to not have the newest version of INDD or even a decent RIP (hence the font replacement) additionally--they are opening his INDD file and changing it.

                Yes the changes you described can happen--but the original query was 'how to lock down everything'--that's what my recommendation is based on!

                Also--where I work--we never use Indesign to convert color space upon export--we use a rip profile to convert RGB to G7, but from the OP's description--the magazine in question, doesn't have a 'decent' rip.

                 

                one more thing--you said "Embed fonts, that is enough!" last time I checked, you cannot embed fonts in an IDML file (which is what the original query was referring to)--however--perhaps the best solution is to just send a 'PDF'--but, I think the magazine in question is not using a PDF workflow (from what's described in the OP they are rotating pages in Indesign and do not have 'modern equipment)--so--I feel that your statement "Please don't make such dangerous recommendations!" is unfounded.

                • 5. Re: What happens when I back-save from ID5 to ID4?
                  Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                  tman69 schrieb:

                   

                  Mr. Adelberger--the original poster said

                   

                  "I am frustrated because I am sending articles to a small magazine that keep getting messed up by the graphic designer, who knows nothing about grammar, spelling, punctuation or layout"

                  69 I am able to read.

                   

                   

                  tman69 schrieb:

                   

                  my advice is in relation to THAT! and judging by the OP's comments--the magazine appears to not have the newest version of INDD or even a decent RIP (hence the font replacement) additionally--they are opening his INDD file and changing it.

                  Yes the changes you described can happen--but the original query was 'how to lock down everything'--that's what my recommendation is based on!

                  You need not to have the newest version of InDesign to place an PDF/X-4 file. At least with CS2 you can place it, if not with 2.0 or CS.

                  Converting to outline IS NOT locking down everything, it is destroying everything, and yes the described changes will happen.

                   

                   

                  tman69 schrieb:

                   

                  Also--where I work--we never use Indesign to convert color space upon export--we use a rip profile to convert RGB to G7, but from the OP's description--the magazine in question, doesn't have a 'decent' rip.

                  They have InDesign CS4, so they can handle  RGB PDF/X-4! So any profile conversion is possible on PDF EXPORT! But to avoid a CMYK-CMYK convertion it is better to use RGB images.

                   

                   

                  tman69 schrieb:

                   

                  one more thing--you said "Embed fonts, that is enough!" last time I checked, you cannot embed fonts in an IDML file (which is what the original query was referring to)--however--perhaps the best solution is to just send a 'PDF'--but, I think the magazine in question is not using a PDF workflow (from what's described in the OP they are rotating pages in Indesign and do not have 'modern equipment)--so--I feel that your statement "Please don't make such dangerous recommendations!" is unfounded.

                  Hey, I am not an idiot. I know that it is impossible to embed fonts in IDML. Fonts can only be embedded in a PDF and have to be embedded to get any PDF/X file.

                  This magazine is using InDesign, so they are using PDF based programs. And when they work with InDesign, they need a rich PDF, so I recommend a PDF/X4. What else do you want to place? You cannot place any IDML file, you could place also an INDD file, but not from a future version.

                  No, it is founded. With your recommendations a destroyed and changed file is delivered.

                  • 6. Re: What happens when I back-save from ID5 to ID4?
                    ceilr Level 1

                    OK, folks, I found out a little more.

                     

                    Looking in my notes from a few years ago, it turns out the mag uses a character width of 90% (in Times Roman, so very standard), and I was using 95% (I have no idea why I went with that).  So it looks like the messy layout I saw this last time came from having less text due to a greater character width, and the designer did what he could to fill the page by adding extra paragraph breaks and such that didn't make sense (rather than write to me and say that the article has plenty of room and why don't I add something more?).  This re-adjustment on my end may help, but only in part: I still do not have faith in a designer who will allow a subhead to appear at the very bottom of a column, which wasn't how I sent it!  It also seems like 95% vs. 90% is negligible enough that he would have saved himself some headaches by leaving it alone.  But I'm on board with this now and will hope for the best.

                     

                    As for RGB PDF/X-4, I have never seen this, so would need to know how to find it and better understand what it does.  Again, I am using ID5 on a PC with Windows 7.  This may still be useful to know about.

                     

                    By mistake, some months ago I accidentally pressed the Outline keystroke command, and what a mess that created.  Fortunately, the one affected page in my forthcoming book didn't have too much type on it, so retyping was fast.  But an entire article four times a year reformatted this way?  I don't think I'd chance it, esp. as I hope to compile all of my articles into a book some day.  I don't want to retype all of that or save yet another file for the sake of editable text, a complete waste of memory.

                     

                    As it is, I have had to freeze limited portions of text in a non-Adobe program to prevent the designer from undoing the formatting into something else that is contrary to convention for my field!  (Not that he couldn't retype it and mess it up, anyway.)  But I cannot use that program to freeze the text for an entire article.  It is incredibly laborious!

                     

                    Sorry it's taken me so long to respond, but I am performing the final read on this forthcoming book, and it's been more involved than I expected.  Two chapters down, four to go, and my aim is to send it to press in a couple days.  And thankfully my next mag article is nearly done.

                     

                    Thank you, all.

                    • 7. Re: What happens when I back-save from ID5 to ID4?
                      Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                      First of all: What the designer does is a catastrophe. It is never good to create space by inserting empty paragraphs. This will destroy keep settings and will end up in headlines at the end of a column as you have noted. With such a guy I would also deliver only frozen files, I would use PDFs.

                      I would neither stretch or shrink any font as it was designed, normally exists a more stretched or condensed style of the same font.

                       

                      You asked about PDF/X-4 with RGB:

                      1. Many people make wasted word in converting images in Photoshop from RGB to CMYK. But this limits the flexibility. You can place in InDesign RGB images. If you convert them upon output from InDesign to PDF or other type of file you get with the same settings the same results. Even in Photoshop you can check the CMYK soft proof preview so that you come closer to the expected result. And a CMYK proof output from a RGB in Photoshop uses the same color engine as Photoshop normally does or InDesign does, all have with the same settings the same result. So you might use RGB images without any previous conversion to CMYK. With drawings from Illustrator use CMYK.
                      2. PDF/X-1a converts to CMYK upon PDF export, Anyone who needs a CMYK-PDF file could use that standard. PDF/X-3 and /X-4 have normally no color conversion. In both you can use RGB images. X-4 allows also transparency. That means you can only produce X-4 without PostScript, that means no printing, no Distiller and no EPS. Because PostScript has no ability to save transparency, files will always be flattened, as it is happening with X-1a and X-3.
                      3. To have the best possible flexibility in InDesign, you should use rich PDFs, that are PDFs with full transparency, embedded font, and not destroyed data by color conversion, those PDFs are PDF/X-4, but also PDP from Photoshop and AI files from Illustrator. No EPS files and no PDF files with reduced transparency. With using such files in InDesign (placing to linked files) you can still export any other PDF from InDesign. But you win flexibility. You can also use other rich PDF files, like layered files, which makes sense, but if you are not experienced X-4 is a good starting point to send a PDF/X-4 for placing in InDesign.
                      4. In InDesign you can export, in Illustrator you can save PDFs and you can choose a PDF/X-4 preset, which is included in your preinstalled presets since CS4 or 5. If you make changes to your file which will not meet the X-4 requirement the standard field in the Export dialog becomes greyed out. Use this standard for creating PDF which are used to be placed in InDesign. If you are more experienced one day you will learn, what can be changed to create a PDF which will meet the requirement of InDesign. (Hint: It is not less information, it is mostly keeping any information.)
                      5. It does not matter if you use the program on the Mac or on Win, both are the same. PDF from one OS can be used on the other OS if they were the same. Only open INDD are making problems if you use OS specific form, that is why I recommend to use only OTF font types, which are completely equal on both OS.