29 Replies Latest reply on Sep 28, 2013 2:04 PM by rob day

    Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents

    Tom Birk Level 1

      Does anyone know how to retain a file's original color space when pasting into an ID document?

       

      Such as when a file is untagged CMYK or RGB and when a file is tagged CMYK or RGB, is there a way to retain this information?

       

      Best case scenario, I've observed that any untagged file will assume (or be tagged as) the current working space. In my case, sRGB and SWOP.

       

      I've tried many CSF alterations, just to cover my bases, and no expected results. I can make it so no profiles are in the files and a number of other unexpected results...but not what I presume should be expected.

       

      Can anyone solve this?

        • 1. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
          Tom Birk Level 1

          BTW, tagged files remain tagged, which is good. It's the untagged ones I would love to see a solution for.

          • 2. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

            How, exactly, do you expect ID to know the original color space if there is no tag?

            • 3. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
              Tom Birk Level 1

              Peter,

               

              I don't expect ID to know the original color space if there is no tag.

               

              However, I do expect ID to leave said file untagged and not to tag it arbitrarily, or at least with the working space as seems to be the case.

              • 4. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                ID has to put the numbers into SOME space in order to render. If none is specified, what choice is there other than the working space?

                • 5. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
                  Tom Birk Level 1

                  ID has to put the numbers into SOME space in order to render.

                   

                  I'm not a programmer and wouldn't know exactly what ID HAS to do. If ID HAS to do this, it's unforunate, to say the least. Color management compliant apps can handle untagged files. For instance, Photoshop does.

                   

                  I think it needs to be fixed.

                  ( check out this discussion of something else I think needs to be fixed: Color Setting Issues: CS6)

                  • 6. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                    Photoshop also presumes untagged files are in the current working space.

                    • 7. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
                      Tom Birk Level 1

                      Peter,

                       

                      Photoshop displays an untagged file in the preset working space, but it doesn't automatically embed that profile. Instead, tagging it or not is up to the user.

                      • 8. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                        ID doesn't embed a profile in the image, either. I Believe it does assign a profile during export, but that's not the same as tagging it in the ID file itself. If you assign a new profile to the document the untagged image will be reinterpreted as being in the new assigned space.

                        • 9. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
                          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                          This is a lot more Rob Day's are than mine. Perhaps he'll weigh in.

                          • 10. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
                            Tom Birk Level 1

                            I assure you that it is tagging the image(s) with what it "assigned". And by how I see it, I think it is actually embedding it (as it assigns it?). Anyhow, strange behavior.

                             

                            Thanks for all of your responses though. I do appreciate it.

                            • 11. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              Photoshop displays an untagged file in the preset working space, but it doesn't automatically embed that profile. Instead, tagging it or not is up to the user.

                              That's true when you open an existing document, but a better analogy would be what happens when you paste one PS document into another PS document—you can't open an image in ID it has to be placed or pasted inside of a document.

                               

                              In Photoshop if you paste pixels from an untagged image into an image tagged with a profile different than the current Color Setting's Working Space, the pasted pixels' appearance changes and are assigned the target image's embedded profile.

                               

                              Same thing happens in ID, all untagged images are assigned the ID doc's profile, and if there's no document assignment the current Working Space is used. So, if you place an untagged CMYK image into a document with an assignment of Japan Color Coated and then change the assignment to US Newsprint you'll see the image preview change accordingly.

                               

                              As with Photshop you are not forced to embed a document profile in InDesign. If you set your Color Setting's CMYK Color Management policy to Off, no CMYK profile will be assigned to the document and  the current CMYK Working Space will color manage native CMYK color and untagged images.

                              • 12. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
                                Tom Birk Level 1

                                Thanks again Rob.

                                All true what you say about PS. Guess I just expect more from a layout/design app.

                                With CM off, it does what's expected.

                                CM on...by definition, one can't manage something if the app tags what wasn't tagged when one wants to leave it untagged.

                                 

                                We have a group of color professionals that review every file submitted after our Graphic Artists preflight those files (with the exception of color) and save out as PDFs. For example, when a PDF has multiple images/objects of varying color spaces and some are untagged, our color guys can make the decision of how to proceed. And we have apps that can process it very well.

                                 

                                As is, and by utilizing the best available settings and presets in the Adobe apps, our color guys will always see untagged RGB and CMYK as either sRGB or SWOP (our preferences, of course). At that point, if anything "looks" wrong, they have to dig through client's submitted files to inspect actual color space origins. For instance, they may find an untagged original looke best in and was probably created in AdobeRGB. That becomes time consuming and counter productive.

                                 

                                Always trying to speed it up and improve quality simultaneously. If Adobe could "fix" this aspect to their color management approach, users like me can go forward with production improvements...ultimately reducing costs that can be passed on to our clients.

                                • 13. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
                                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                  Of course, asking clients to be sure they embed profiles in their images would also be a good idea....

                                   

                                  Failure to embed profiles, in my opinion, is prima facie evidence that someone doesn't really care about the color.

                                  • 14. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
                                    rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    With CM off, it does what's expected.

                                    I'm not seeing any difference with the CMS Off setting—untagged images still show in the Links panel as Document CMYK. The only difference with CMS Off is you don't know what the document's CMYK profile is because Color Settings is left blank. But there has to be an assumed space, in order to display CMYK color in your monitor's RGB space there needs to be a CMYK profile to make the conversion.

                                     

                                    At that point, if anything "looks" wrong, they have to dig through client's submitted files to inspect actual color space origins. For instance, they may find an untagged original looke best in and was probably created in AdobeRGB.

                                     

                                    If the image really is untagged opening will do no good because there's no way of telling what the original source was. It will simply get displayed via the current Working Space profile which could be anything. ID works the same way, except the assumed profile is the document assignment first, then the working space if there's no assignment.

                                     

                                    Also, you don't need to open image files to assign a profile to an untagged image, that can be done by selecting the image and choosing  Object>Image Color Settings...>Profile

                                    • 15. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
                                      Tom Birk Level 1

                                      Peter,

                                       

                                      Definitely! But requesting clients to embed profiles and getting them to do it ain't the same thing. Right?

                                       

                                      Besides, just got a PS3 PDF tagged with our custom CMYK, but when placed into ID, it got reassigned to SWOP! WTF!    all settings were to preserve embedded profiles and ID used was CS6. However, if we first saved the PS3 PDF as a tiff and then placed it into ID, our custom CMYK was retained.

                                       

                                      That just shouldn't happen.

                                       

                                      Rob,

                                       

                                      True that an untagged file, opened or not, tells us nothing about its color space origin. But at least we can see the file and judge what color space looks best. Sometimes there are clues in an image. Ultimately, of course, we would ask for color samples.

                                      • 16. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
                                        Tom Birk Level 1

                                        Thanks for all the input. Your collective suggestions although plausible, would be unnecessary if Adobe could address a fix. imo

                                        • 17. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
                                          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                           

                                          Besides, just got a PS3 PDF tagged with our custom CMYK, but when placed into ID, it got reassigned to SWOP! WTF!    all settings were to preserve embedded profiles and ID used was CS6. However, if we first saved the PS3 PDF as a tiff and then placed it into ID, our custom CMYK was retained.

                                           

                                          PDF profiles don't show in ID (Links or Info) because there can be multiple profiles inside of a PDF. Where are you seeing the the PDF is assigned SWOP?

                                          • 18. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
                                            Tom Birk Level 1

                                            when the PDF is placed, seeing it in the info window. stays there after the PDF is exported.

                                             

                                            so ID is defaulting to SWOP (our working space in color settings), because ID doesn't want a PDF placed...or something like that? OK. Par for the course I suppose.

                                             

                                            again, good information. I appreciate that.

                                            • 19. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
                                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              I've never seen the Info panel display the profile for a PDF, which makes sense because a PDF could have any number of objects with different profiles, color spaces, and resolutions (which one should be displayed?). Here's what I get with a Photoshop PDF:

                                               

                                              Screen Shot 2013-09-23 at 4.43.44 PM.png

                                              because ID doesn't want a PDF placed...or something like that?

                                               

                                              There's no problem placing PDF's and ID will honor their profiles if the document's policy is preserve. It doesn't recognize Output Intents so maybe you are saving as PDF/X-1a?

                                               

                                               

                                              so ID is defaulting to SWOP (our working space in color settings)

                                               

                                              ID looks to the document assignment first, so if the assignment (Edit>Assign Profiles) is SWOP, it will use SWOP no matter what the current Color Setting's Working Space is. If there's no assignment then it falls back to the Working Space.

                                               

                                              Like policies the document profile is assigned when the doc is created and it would be up to you to change it from Assign or Convert to Profiles if needed—changing the Color Setting's Working Space has no effect on existing documents unless its policy was set to Off.

                                               

                                              Again there has to be a source profile for there to be color conversions—including the conversion to monitor RGB for display. It's completely logical to make the assumed  source profile of untagged CMYK files Document CMYK.

                                              • 20. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
                                                Tom Birk Level 1

                                                I've never seen the Info panel display the profile for a PDF,

                                                 

                                                Earlier, I misunderstood what you said about PDF profiles...my bad. But as in your picture example, Info for ICC Profile is available for each object placed.

                                                 

                                                And here's another "my bad".... we were unable to reproduce the problem of the object's icc profile changing from custom CMYK to SWOP. The first 3 times the same thing happened (replaced icc profile). We restarted the computer, and since then color management responds as it should and did not replace the icc profile, but kept it intact.

                                                 

                                                My apologies for causing a stir.

                                                 

                                                So back to the main issue ....  can't ID honor untagged objects by keeping them untagged instead of tagging them with the working space icc profiles?

                                                Seems like it should be able to since it does that by default with anything grayscale (tagged or not)...I know, I know, as you said earlier, and I'm paraphrasing...technically, ID doesn't know what grayscale is and just leaves it alone...sorry for hacking the guts out of your quote.

                                                • 21. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
                                                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                  Actually, ID presumes the grayscale numbers are a CMYK object in the current CMYK space, and the CMY channels are all 0.

                                                  • 22. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
                                                    rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                    example, Info for ICC Profile is available for each object placed.

                                                    Not PDFs or AI, you can see in my capture the profile is blank. That doesn't mean there are not profiles assigned, ID just can't tell you what they are. Images aren't a problem because there can only be one profile assigned. Also,you can't change the profile via Object>Image Settings... the way you can with an image.

                                                     

                                                    can't ID honor untagged objects by keeping them untagged instead of tagging them with the working space icc profiles?

                                                     

                                                    How would they be displayed? There needs to be a source CMYK profile for the RGB display conversion.

                                                     

                                                    technically, ID doesn't know what grayscale is and just leaves it alone.

                                                     

                                                    In addition to Peter's point, ID displays grayscales two different ways. With Overprint or Sep Preview turned on, the display is via the document CMYK profile, so a 50% gray value would display the same as 0|0|0|50 CMYK and output unchanged. When Overprint is off the display is sGray (2.1 gamma), which is useful if you are designing for screen.

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                                                    • 24. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
                                                      Tom Birk Level 1

                                                      Rob,

                                                       

                                                      By "object", I meant everything (vector, raster, etc.). Using PDF ToolBox is getting me to adopt Callas' nomenclature.

                                                      So you're saying that objects (vector) can't be assigned profies, and only images can? That's weird. I don't understand.

                                                      How would they be displayed? There needs to be a source CMYK profile for the RGB display conversion.

                                                      I would assume in the same way PS displays grayscale, tags grayscale and/or leaves grayscale untagged. I'm not sure how they do it, but it might be by somehow creating profiles from look-up tables. But I don't actually know.

                                                      We're now testing PDF ToolBox. It cuts our processing time in half. It recognizes grayscale and everything else. It allows for retaining tagged and/or untagged elements in a PDF. It handles any color space you throw at it.

                                                      The fact that Adobe chooses to treat grayscale as 0/0/0/K, chooses to tag the untagged, and all the other things you shared about it, which was great info, by the way, demonstrates Adobe's lack of either appreciation of or priority in engineering/programming for color management.

                                                      My point being is that both Rob and Peter have greatly explained some of the working nuances of ID in regards to how it performs color management. And that Adobe should improve its methods by re-engineering their CM process.

                                                      I also realize that so much communication is lost in typed words. Often times in this discussion I chose not to respond to certain aspects and noticed other times I don't think I was understood. That said, I'm sure I'm guilty of most of the encoding problems and thus when decoded by you guys not as I intended is solely my fault.

                                                      Again, thank you for your time and efforts. Truly appreciate the insight.

                                                      • 25. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
                                                        rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                        Retread my post. I never said PDFs can't have embedded profiles. The Info panel can't tell you what they are because each object on a PDF page could be assigned a different profile. A PDF/x-4 could have 10 CMYK images each with a different profile. If you want to check a PDFs profiles you have to do it from Acrobat Pro.

                                                         

                                                        There are no lookup tables in the CM system, the conversions are from the source space to Lab (which is device independent and has no profile) to the destination profile. So in PS the preview of an untagged grayscale is from the Working Gray space>Lab> Monitor RGB.

                                                         

                                                        ID uses the CMYK profile because on a CMYK press there are not 2 black plates, so you don't want 2 different profiles managing the black plate preview. You can also use a CMYK profile as the Gray space in Photoshop.

                                                         

                                                        You can't disable the CM system. Untagged images are still color managed-- there has to be source.

                                                        • 26. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
                                                          Tom Birk Level 1

                                                          Rob,

                                                           

                                                          Retread my post. I never said PDFs can't have embedded profiles. The Info panel can't tell you what they are because each object on a PDF page could be assigned a different profile. A PDF/x-4 could have 10 CMYK images each with a different profile. If you want to check a PDFs profiles you have to do it from Acrobat Pro.

                                                           

                                                          I'm working in CS6 and I can identify the icc profiles of individual images placed onto an ID template by clicking on each image. The info panel does show the icc profiles. We've placed all kinds of images with different color spaces/profiles. And they all show.

                                                           

                                                          So in PS the preview of an untagged grayscale is from the Working Gray space>Lab> Monitor RGB.

                                                           

                                                          Of course.

                                                           

                                                          ID uses the CMYK profile because on a CMYK press there are not 2 black plates, so you don't want 2 different profiles managing the black plate preview.

                                                           

                                                          Wow, my bad again, as I realize I did not specify that when I spoke of grayscale color management, I was referring to files that will print grayscale too...not CMYK...as in a 4/1 job (CMYK/gray) as in a postcard that is color on oe side and B&W on the other.

                                                           

                                                          You can't disable the CM system. Untagged images are still color managed-- there has to be source.

                                                           

                                                          Agree there has to be a source. In regards to gray only files, no CMYK...can't Adobe fix it so that grayscale, tagged image files in a grayscale document remain tagged?

                                                          • 27. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
                                                            rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                            PDFs are not image files. Place and select a PDF and look at your Info panel.

                                                            • 28. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
                                                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                              With CS6 there is the option to convert to a grayscale space on Export, but the better workflow is to use the InDesign document CMYK profile as the gray profile in Photoshop, then output the black plate for the 1 color side. When you do that the grayscale preview will match in PS and ID.

                                                              • 29. Re: Retain original color space profiles - tagged AND untagged in ID documents
                                                                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                I was traveling last week and couldn't post screen captures. There are 2 slight downsides to ID not having a grayscale space which can be overcome via Color Settings.

                                                                 

                                                                First, the preview of a grayscale in the layout might not match the Photoshop preview of the same grayscale, and secondly you can't force a grayscale-to-grayscale conversion of a single image on Export (you can force CMYK-to-CMYK or RGB-to-RGB).

                                                                 

                                                                So you could set Photoshop's Color Settings to something like this:

                                                                 

                                                                Screen Shot 2013-09-28 at 4.18.28 PM.png

                                                                 

                                                                 

                                                                The above would work if you are preparing a layout for a press running to the Fogra39 profile. Any grayscale created with this color setting would get the Black Ink Fogra39 profile assigned. When you place the grayscale in the layout the  profile gets ignored, but the ID document has the same CMYK profile assigned so the preview will be the same when Overprint's turned on. On export you don't want or get any number conversions because the grayscale has been prepared for Fogra and you are exporting to Fogra.

                                                                 

                                                                If someone provides a grayscale with the default 20% Dot Gain  (or any other profile) assigned, you can open it in Photoshop and there will be an automatic conversion from the assigned profile to Fogra because the Gray Policy is set to Convert to Working Gray.