12 Replies Latest reply on Oct 10, 2013 11:01 AM by G.Hoffmann

    What is the best way to rotate graphics in InDesign

    JennProdMan Level 1

      I know that in InDesign you can rotate both an object and an image placed inside the object; that, for example, if I rotate a box 5° CW, the image that I've placed in that box is also rotated 5°. That's very straightforward. But in creating docs for printing and electronic publishing, we're distilling these docs into PDFs, and the smaller the better. "Smaller" means just the right resolution for the job with the fewest manipulations to distill.

       

      It used to be a rule that any image manipulation should always be performed in its native form (e.g., a Photoshop tiff) and then placed in the layout doc (i.e., InDesign). So my question is, given the capabilities of InDesign and the need to distill efficiently, does the rule for native manipulation still apply? If it does, is there an efficient way to connect the InDesign manipulations with Photoshop, so that manipulating an image in InDesign will automatically create the same manipulation in the original art

        • 1. Re: What is the best way to rotate graphics in InDesign
          Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          JennProdMan wrote:

           

          That's very straightforward. But in creating docs for printing and electronic publishing, we're distilling these docs into PDFs, and the smaller the better. "Smaller" means just the right resolution for the job with the fewest manipulations to distill.

           

          Distilling is an antiquated way of preparing a file for print - it's not the best way at all. Use File>Export and choose PDF (PRINT) and set the options for the PDF printing there.

           

           

          JennProdMan wrote:

           

          It used to be a rule that any image manipulation should always be performed in its native form (e.g., a Photoshop tiff) and then placed in the layout doc (i.e., InDesign).

           

          Even manipulation in photoshop technically removes information - the rule I believe was that if you were scanning artwork to scan at the resolution and the angle you want and do no further manipulation at all in Photoshop.

           

           

          JennProdMan wrote:

           

          Iis there an efficient way to connect the InDesign manipulations with Photoshop, so that manipulating an image in InDesign will automatically create the same manipulation in the original art

           

          No - InDesign will place a link to the file from it's file path - whatever way the image is displayed is in Photoshop is how it is displayed in InDesign.

           

          You can rotate the image within InDesign - but you can't dynamically link that rotation back to the Photoshop (or source) file.

           

          You'd need to make the change within Photoshop (or source file) prior to placing in InDesign (or if you adjust the rotation in the source file InDesign will prompt you to update the link).

           

           

          Distilling isn't an efficient way to make PDFs.

          1 person found this helpful
          • 2. Re: What is the best way to rotate graphics in InDesign
            Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            As for your question:


            What's the best way to rotate an image in InDesign?

             

            Images can be roatated independently of the Frame, as you know.

             

            Or as part of the Frame.

             

            There's no difference in the best way.

             

            You could roate the image in Photoshop.

             

            No difference.

            1 person found this helpful
            • 3. Re: What is the best way to rotate graphics in InDesign
              JennProdMan Level 1

              Thanks for the feedback.

               

              In saying "distilling" I was using perhaps an term implying something somewhat outdated; I do create PDFs through specifications I've created in the Adobe PDF Presets (rather than export the InDesign doc as postscript for separate distilling).

               

              Just to be clear, you're saying that PDFs with images rotated or manipulated in InDesign RIP just as efficiently as those with images rotated or manipulated in Photoshop prior to placement in InDesign?

               

              Thanks!

              • 4. Re: What is the best way to rotate graphics in InDesign
                Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                I believe they both do the same thing effectively.

                1 person found this helpful
                • 5. Re: What is the best way to rotate graphics in InDesign
                  JennProdMan Level 1

                  Thanks very much for your feedback!

                  • 6. Re: What is the best way to rotate graphics in InDesign
                    G.Hoffmann Level 3

                    I'm getting always fuzzy edges, rotating images in InDesign:

                     

                    http://docs-hoffmann.de/Rotate-in-ID.pdf

                     

                    Is there somewhere a choice for the interpolation in ID CS6

                    for Export as PDF?

                    Should be bicubic, but this would help only for edges inside the

                    image.

                    In order to get smooth image edges it would be necessary to

                    place the rotated image on a sufficiently large (axis-aligned)

                    white background, as possible in Photoshop.

                     

                    Best regards  --Gernot Hoffmann

                     

                    The PDF image is pixel-synchronized for Acrobat settings 72ppi

                    and zoom 200%.

                     

                    Edited:

                    The source image had 288ppi (4·72). ID had downsampled the

                    source image correctly, but not the rotated image.

                    • 7. Re: What is the best way to rotate graphics in InDesign
                      Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      I've never noticed any difference in print.

                       

                      On screen - yes possibly there might be an issue _ I primarily work in print so wasn't thinking along those lines.

                      • 8. Re: What is the best way to rotate graphics in InDesign
                        Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

                        To augment Eugene's responses …

                         

                        It is important to understand what happens when you place imagery (whether TIFF, JPEG, PNG, PDF, etc.) into InDesign in terms of rotation and scaling.

                         

                        When placing such objects, InDesign does not modify the objects themselves in terms of orientation and scaling, but simply uses your specification of scaling and rotation for display and subsequent output. Unless you request downsampling of imagery for either print or PDF export, the content is output as originally placed with specifications as to how it should be scaled and rotated when subsequently viewed and/or printed. In the case of printing, any rotation or scaling is actually done by the RIP itself, which is the correct place for this to occur.

                         

                        Why? Although you might not see any significant difference for very high resolution imagery, cascading operations of rotation (other than 90 degrees) and resampling for raster images are highly lossy operations. It is possible when placing content into InDesign, that such content itself has placed rotated and scaled content. When the scaling and resampling is left to the final rendering process, it occurs only once for each object, regardless of how many levels of rotation and scaling occur due to nesting. If you manually rotate and scale content before placement, you are effectively rotating and scaling multiple times, each one adding lossiness to you final output, lossiness that need not occur!

                         

                        Clear as mud?

                         

                                  - Dov

                        1 person found this helpful
                        • 9. Re: What is the best way to rotate graphics in InDesign
                          Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          Basically - resizing in Photoshop causes untold damage to the image - but barely noticeable.

                           

                          And rotating in InDesign doesn't actually rotate the image - just gives the appearance that it's rotated in the layout.

                           

                          It issues an instruction along with the image in the Print PDF to be rotated on output from the RIP - which can rotate and RIP it at the resolution the RIP is set to.

                           

                          Giving a sharper detailed rotation.

                          • 10. Re: What is the best way to rotate graphics in InDesign
                            JennProdMan Level 1

                            Well, I'm NOT sorry I asked but I do want to be clear about what you and Eugene are saying (and forgive me please if I'm being dense).

                             

                            First, on resizing: we use Genuine Fractals Pro to resample images, and it seems to be working fine (as long as we keep the resample within reason), so I'm not too concerned on that point. Our 4c jobs generally print at 150 line screen.

                             

                            So, for the sake of example, let's say I've placed an image at 100% (300ppi) in InDesign and have rotated in InDesign 10° clockwise.

                             

                            I've always been told that it would be best to rotate the image in Photoshop, and then place it at that rotation in the layout (i.e., setting the layout rotation to 0°).

                             

                            Dov, Eugene (in your comment below), you seem to be saying that it is better (both for image quality and final  not to rotate it in Photoshop but rather in InDesign. I would think that this makes for a more complex RIP to PDF, no?

                             

                            My goal is to create the cleanest (and least likely to fail) PDFs with the most efficient workflow, so if that means not going back to make the rotation in Photoshop and then re-set the InDesign rotation to 0°, then that is one less step. These are jobs that are each produced both for print and for electronic (ebook) distribution.

                             

                            Thanks again for your advice.

                            1 person found this helpful
                            • 11. Re: What is the best way to rotate graphics in InDesign
                              Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              Rotating in InDesign appears to be cleanest way.

                               

                              Best to have the image render at the angle you want it in the first place though.

                               

                              So if you're resizing using Genuine fractals - does it give the option to rotate while resizing?

                               

                              If it doesn't - then rotating in Photoshop after it's been resized is definitely ill-advised.

                               

                              Rotate it in InDesign - then the RIP will handle the rotation at a much higher resolution.

                              1 person found this helpful
                              • 12. Re: What is the best way to rotate graphics in InDesign
                                G.Hoffmann Level 3

                                Dov, thanks for the information.

                                 

                                Then we encounter an opinion – just a myth – that image processing destroys images.

                                 

                                Following these ideas one shouldn't ever use scaling, rotation, perspective transform,

                                clone stamp, context-aware fill, Photomerge etc. (and of course no color corrections!)

                                in Photoshop for files for printing.

                                Rasterization (by RIP) is the most destructive process at all - potentially 16.7 millions

                                of colors are simulated by variable dots of just four inks – CMYK, or a few more for

                                inkjets. This is so very harsh, that we can say: all these subtle interpolations in Photo-

                                shop don't do any harm, compared with.

                                 

                                Now let's forget this polemical introduction:

                                 

                                InDesign offers a solution for rotation and probably scaling, but for nothing else:

                                Mathematical transformation data for the RIP how to proceed these files. This might

                                improve the print quality, but why does the PDF viewer not show the interpolated images?

                                Such a very bad preview may cause the impression that the handling is wrong.

                                 

                                And even worse: Export as an Interactive PDF shows just the same fuzzy (jagged)

                                result for rotated images for monitor view.

                                 

                                I'm using Acrobat 8 Pro for viewing PDFs. Is it my mistake? Should I use newer viewers

                                and the fuzziness will go away ?

                                 

                                Best regards --Gernot Hoffmann

                                 

                                If I should have to publish again my birthday data for log-in (like yesterday), then please

                                contact me directly:

                                FirstName-FamilyName@docs-hoffmann.de