30 Replies Latest reply on Oct 30, 2013 6:00 PM by whsprague

    2 cam double system sound?

    wmhanks

      My friend, Thorne Dreyer does a weekly radio show on KOOP in Austin. Recently Dan and Robin Rather were his guests. The person who shot the footage is a notable still photographer with little experience in motion pictures. I'm going to edit. There will be two 50 or 60 GB files from each camera in .mov format. Also, the audio from the cameras is unusable so we have a separate sound track from the show.

      I need to syc the sound with both cams footage then edit between the two cams for the finished piece. Does anyone have experience doing this with Adobe Elements 11? I heard a program like Pluraleyes might help.

        • 1. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
          Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

          This would be so much easier in the professional version of Premiere!

           

          In fact, it's going to be a real bear in Premiere Elements.

           

          Not synching the audio and video. That's pretty basic. But switching between two live cameras and keeping it all in sync is seriously hard. At least in Premiere Elements. Premiere Pro includes a multi-cam editor feature.

           

          It also might make a difference what type of camcorder your video was shot on. If it wasn't a consumer camcorder, the video may not even digest well in Premiere Elements. (MOV isn't really specific enough. MOVs come in thousands of different flavors!)

          • 2. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
            wmhanks Level 1

            In retrospect, I should have downloaded the trial version of Elements first. I'm seeing what you mean. I really need Pro. I downloaded Pluraleyes Trial and it works pertty good but it looses sync over a long take. The first try was a 35 minute sequence which looked good for the first 10 or 12 minutes but the wandered towards the end. So I broke the sequence down to 4 segments and am going to try that today.

             

            Also, it's stressing my computer somewhat. I have a Samsung laptop (RV511) with Win 7, i3 processer, and a mere 4 GB of Ram. The program has crashed several times during the export funtion. But I keep on and have, with some hurdles, been able to accomplish what I need to do. I guess I'll have to keep on pushing forward but it's clear I need more horsepower and the Pro version to do it easily. That's not in the budget right now though.

             

            I guess I'll handle the 2 cam part by just importing the second cam footage and cutting back and forth from the two as if it were just separate cuts from the same sequence.

             

            This gives away my "demographic", but when I was 20 years old I began cutting A and B roll on a Moviola with hot splices. : ) I vastly prefer the digital domain.

             

            Thanks for your interest and help, Mike Hanks

            • 3. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
              A.T. Romano Level 7

              wmhanks

               

              A just in case note, there are many doing multi camera editing with Premiere Elements even without the official multi camera editing built in feature of Premiere Pro. In Premiere Elements, I prefer using Opacity rather than cuts in the workflow.

               

              I suspect that, with the amount of work you have ahead of you with all that footage, the relative easy factor may be minimal even with just 2 cameras. .But getting beyond 2 cameras in a Premiere Elements multi camera scheme can be much.

               

              But I would ask "Is the footage from two different cameras recording the same subject(s) at the same time, but from different angles. Or, are the two cameras recording related scenes, each recording not at the same time?

               

              Please update us on your progress when you get a chance. We would be very interested to learn how Premiere Elements fares in the workflow that you are planning.

               

              Thanks.

               

              ATR

              • 4. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
                wmhanks Level 1

                I downloaded the trial for Premier Pro and have been viewing the tutorials. It looks like the "Sync to ext audio" would solve all the problems. I may still do it in Premier Elements as well. While the $700. for Pro may be too big a hit on the budget at this time, maybe the $30. a month for the Creative Cloud might be feasable. I'll be working on it and keep you updated on my progress. Thanks, Mike

                • 5. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
                  A.T. Romano Level 7

                  Mike

                   

                  After all is said and done, we would be very interested in your results.

                   

                  Success with whatever workflow you decide to go with.

                   

                  ATR

                  • 6. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
                    wmhanks Level 1

                    I have two camera sources. The video camera (Cam 1) captured 35 min. of footage which I have synced with the master sound.

                     

                    Camera 2 is a DSLR, which likes to break up the sequences into 5 or 6 min. segments. So I have 10 segments of what is essentially a continuous take.

                     

                    I would like to rejoin those sequences so I can deal with it as a a continous take as with Cam 1.

                     

                    I have run into an obstacle though. I can't seem to figure out (what one would think would be the simplest thing in the world) - just join the sequences together and export them as one take.

                     

                    One might think I would just select the series of segments and right click or something and select "join". However, I see no way to recombine the 10 segments into one continuous take.

                     

                    If I could do that, then I would have a sequence from Cam 1 and a sequence from Cam 2, then I could use the multi-cam feature to create two sources from which I could edit the finished peice.

                     

                    I just can't seem to figure out how to combine the 10 segments from the DSLR into one continuous take.

                     

                    I tried the multi-cam without doing that and it came up with 11 different cameras including the Cam 1 video - not feasable. I just want to recombine the 10 segments from the DSLR into one take so I have a two Cam multi-cam sequence.

                     

                    Does anyone know how to recombine  or "join" the DSLR footage back into a continuous take?

                    • 7. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
                      A.T. Romano Level 7

                      Mike

                       

                      It is late where I am so I will give you my initial thoughts on this and then get back to your thread first thing in the morning.

                       

                      You wrote

                      One might think I would just select the series of segments and right click or something and select "join". However, I see no way to recombine the 10 segments into one continuous take.

                      One can select a group of clips and then right click anywhere in the highlight and select Group.

                       

                      You can also selectively export segment(s) of the Timeline by having the gray tabs of the WorkArea Bar span just the segment for export. But, the important other half of this is having a check mark next to "Share WorkArea Bar Only" in the export dialog (if the dialog comes with that option).

                       

                      Does any of that sound of interest?

                       

                      More later.

                       

                      ATR

                      • 8. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
                        wmhanks Level 1

                        Thanks, I appreciate your reply. I guess I'm doing something like that now. I synced all the DSLR segments with the master audio and now I'm exporting that so, hopefully, I will wind up with the continuous sequence that I need. You are most kind. There is a lot I would like to share with you about my experiences with this project. Let me get a little farther alone the path and I'll fill you in on this adventure. By the way, Dan has some very interesting comments about journalism today and the state of our "grand experiment in democracy". More later. Mike

                        • 9. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
                          wmhanks Level 1

                          The export worked fine. I guess I was trying to skip that step because it took two hours. But all's well that ends well. I now have two synced camera sources. The multi-cam editing looks like it's going to work out well.

                           

                          Once the cameras are synced with sound, I believe it would be possible to do a decent job with Elements just cutting between the two camera sources but Pro will be much easier to work with.

                           

                          I'm just now getting started with the actual editing. I'll keep you updated on the progress. Thanks for your time and interest, Mike

                          • 10. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
                            A.T. Romano Level 7

                            Mike

                             

                            Thanks for the update with the good news of your successes in your project.

                             

                            Sounding very good.

                             

                            ATR

                            • 11. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
                              jmklein Level 1

                              wmhanks,

                               

                              You might have proceeded past this point by now, but to join the multiple DSLR files into one, try using DOS copy.  For example (copy /b file1 + file2 + file3 newfile).  This works perfectly for me when my camcorder breaks long recordings into multiple 2GB .mts files and I want to rejoin as one file.

                              • 12. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
                                A.T. Romano Level 7

                                jmklein

                                 

                                How would you do what you suggest for files already on the Premiere Elements Timeline without exporting the the Premiere Elements Timeline first?

                                 

                                If I have audio out of sync issues with ripping VOBs from DVD-VIDEO, I have used Command Prompt for seamless DVD.VOB which I import into a Premiere Elements project instead of ripping individual VOBs.

                                 

                                But, I am seeing that what you suggest would be applicable only to the files before they get into Premiere Elements.

                                 

                                ATR

                                • 13. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
                                  jmklein Level 1

                                  ATR,

                                   

                                  Yes, my suggestion would only be useful before importing the files into PE.  I learned of the necessity of this method when putting multiple files from my camcorder (that were recorded as one continuous recording event) on the timeline in Pinnacle Studio.  During project playback, there would be an audio dropout at each file break.  By joining the files in DOS, the file now exists as one long continous file with no break or dropouts.  Because of the FAT file system in the camcorder, files can not be larger than 2GB.

                                   

                                  If you import the entire folder structure from the camcorder into some editors (iMovie), it will recognize the mutliple files for a continous recording session and account for the break, with no dropouts.  No sure if PE will do this or not.  Pinnacle Studio would not.

                                  • 14. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
                                    A.T. Romano Level 7

                                    jmklein

                                     

                                    Very interesting. May give that a try.

                                     

                                    Thanks.

                                     

                                    ATR

                                    • 15. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
                                      jmklein Level 1

                                      In the camcorders folder structure, somehow the file break is accounted for.  I think newer editors can work with this, not Pinnacle Studio.  The idea is that when you copy the stuff off the camcorder, copy and archive the entire folder structure to your  harddrive, not just the .mts files under the STREAM subfolder.  I have always been used to just copying/archiving the .mts files without the folder structure.  Had to change my ways.

                                       

                                      My trial for PE expired, so I am not able to try this in PE.  Maybe you can and let us know.

                                      • 16. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
                                        A.T. Romano Level 7

                                        jmklein

                                         

                                        Mission accomplished just now with Premiere Elements 12 and other.

                                         

                                        Will be writing and posting the details. Then we can compared notes on getting individual files from the camera into the computer as a seamless single file, using Command Prompt.

                                         

                                        More later.

                                         

                                        ATR

                                        • 17. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
                                          A.T. Romano Level 7

                                          jmklein

                                           

                                          Because of the detailed and long nature of my looking into the Command Prompt's approach for obtaining merged files for Premiere Elements import, I have written my findings into a blog post.

                                          http://www.atr935.blogspot.com/2013/10/pe12-seamless-file-merging-before-import.html

                                           

                                          I am not sure if what I have done is prescribed Command Prompt, but I went with what worked for me based on what I had done in a previous work with DVD-VIDEO, individual VOBs vs VOBs merged in a single file for use in Premiere Elements.

                                           

                                          The results looks promising when this specific need is indicated.

                                           

                                          ATR

                                          • 18. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
                                            wmhanks Level 1

                                            I am in admiration of your post. You have really worked out an impressive way to join the artificially segmented sequences that are produced by DSLR cameras. I humbly confess my DOS skills are almost non- existant so I'm not sure I could bring that off as handily as you were able to do.

                                             

                                            I solved the problem in this way: Imported the seven or so separate segments of the 30 or 40 minutes contiuous take (the software snapped them together on the timeline) then I merged the segments using the "Audio" merge feature to sync everything up with the master audio from the show. I then exported that sequence so I came out with one contiuous sequence with sync audio. It was very easy. The only downside was the time it took to export it but I don't have the swiftest hardware and it was worth it because now I have sync footage from Cam 1 and sync footage freom Cam 2 which I can now easily edit in the multi-cam mode.

                                             

                                            Thanks for your interest, Mike

                                            • 19. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
                                              A.T. Romano Level 7

                                              Mike

                                               

                                              Sounds like major progress. Great job.

                                               

                                              But, please refresh my memory, what did you mean by "Audio" merge feature to sync? Was that the Group option or something else?

                                               

                                              Thanks for the update.

                                               

                                              ATR

                                              • 20. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
                                                wmhanks Level 1

                                                The project is characturized by "good news and bad news". The software is working flawlessly. The bad news is I never anticipated it taking this long so my trial copy of Premier Pro is about to expire.

                                                 

                                                In the best of worlds, I would simply subscribe to the Creative Cloud - it's a great value for the cost. However, I may not have mentioned I am retired and my "studio" doesn't have much of a client base except for Pro-Bono clients. I don't see how I can justify an annual commitment even at the reasonable rates offered.

                                                 

                                                I guess there is not another version of Pro that does audio sync, but is there one that does multcam that I could buy at an affordable cost? I have really enjoyed this and would like to contiue - maybe even restore my paid client base - but I need to work within the expense constraints I have now.

                                                 

                                                Please let me know if previous versions of the stand-alone Premier Pro application have the multicam capability. That might be a good way to continue. Otherwise, I see no way of completing this project. There were delays in getting the original footage to me, and now that I see it, I can see we need to go back and do some pick-ups - reaction shots and b-roll. So by the time that gets here the trial version will have expired.

                                                 

                                                Alternative versions of Premier Pro with multicam capabilities that I could purchase?

                                                 

                                                Thanks, Mike

                                                • 21. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
                                                  wmhanks Level 1

                                                  Well, as I recall, I tried several ways to sync the master audio with the clips from the DSLR. I think they all worked pretty well. I first combined all the segments within Premeir Pro and exported to file which produced a continuous sequence. Then I started a new project and imported that sequence with camera audio, and then I imported the master audio (it was a radio interview so I used the on-air audio from the show as a master).

                                                   

                                                  So then I tried merge using audio (the cam audio was clean enough because it was shot in a studio) it work great. Then, just to see what would happen, I took the same video and master audio into the timeline and selected "syncronize" (right click menu) and that worked too.

                                                   

                                                  I did that for both the cam 1 and cam 2 sequence. So I wound up with the two camera sources in sync and ready to edit in the multi-cam mode.

                                                  • 22. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
                                                    wmhanks Level 1

                                                    The response for the DOS solution was intended for Mr. Klein to thank him for his work on that. I got confused about how the replies work. But things are going great on the project. If you have any suggestions for an affordable self-standing Premier Pro application with muticam capabilities that would be great. Usually I woulldn't have the challeges of syncing audio because I always use a clapper. But, as I may have mentioned, the eyeman didn't have motion picture experience and didn't do that. Most of my projects will have visible sync points. Mike

                                                    • 23. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
                                                      whsprague Level 4

                                                      I've enjoyed following this thread and have a couple thoughts.

                                                       

                                                      Joining Clips:  I have PC software that came with my Sony and Pansonic cameras that join clips losslessly.  Depending on the project, I will prep clips prior to editing in Premier Elements.  Both are quick and easy. 

                                                       

                                                      Multiple Cameras:  I've done a couple family history projects with my granddaughters that feature a family elder.  Knowing we would combine footage in editing, we designated a primary camera with audio.  The second and third cameras were for the "interest shots" and avoided any and all audio that would need to be synced  -- like moving hands or shots of interested listeners.   Then it is an easy task to remove the audio from the "interest clips" and put them on "video 2" for a few seconds at a time. 

                                                       

                                                      Other editing software:  On a consumer video hardware forum I participate in, Adobe professional products tend not to be favored  --- and less so now that Adobe wants to charge for use by the month.   Most favored in the "pro" category is Sony Vegas.  There are a couple packages.  One is $400, the other $600.  They both seem to offer methods of syncing and combining multiple cameras.  I have no experience with either, but if I stop enjoying Premier Elements and want to "step up" without using the CC rental program I would seriously consider Vegas.  (Yes, Premier Pro was on my shopping and wish lists until Adobe said I could only rent it.)

                                                       

                                                      Bill

                                                      • 24. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
                                                        jmklein Level 1

                                                        wmhanks,

                                                         

                                                        The DOS solution is meant to rejoin files that should have been a single file or recording to begin with, but was broken into segments because of file structure and size limitations.  I urge you to attempt it.  ATR's blog posts walk you through the steps very nicely.  I think it will simplify your workflow.

                                                         

                                                        And in all fairness, I learned this method from another forum, so I am just sharing the knowledge.

                                                         

                                                        Joe Klein

                                                        • 25. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
                                                          whsprague Level 4

                                                          jmklein wrote:

                                                           

                                                           

                                                          The DOS solution is meant to rejoin files that should have been a single file or recording to begin with, but was broken into segments because of file structure and size limitations. 

                                                           

                                                           

                                                          Joe,

                                                           

                                                          I understand that and was not trying to take value away from your suggestion.  My suggestion to this topic is that there are other ways to join files too.

                                                           

                                                          In the Sony and Pansonic software I have, it seems as if Sony and Pansonic are providing a solution to the file size limits imposed by the format limitations.  It is as if they assume their camcorder customers will be taking long, continuous clips that must be "repaired".  So, they make it easy with a GUI instead of a command prompt.

                                                           

                                                          Bill

                                                          • 26. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
                                                            jmklein Level 1

                                                            Sure Bill, no problem; I didn't take it that way at all.  I don't usually load camera software, as it is usually very limited in capabilities.

                                                             

                                                            Funny, I had my AVCHD camera for more than a year before I ever recorded continuous footage long enough to have it span multiple files.  By then I was totally past looking at the included software.

                                                             

                                                            Cheers,

                                                            Joe

                                                            • 27. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
                                                              whsprague Level 4

                                                              jmklein wrote:

                                                               

                                                              I don't usually load camera software, as it is usually very limited in capabilities.

                                                               

                                                              Funny, I had my AVCHD camera for more than a year before I ever recorded continuous footage long enough to have it span multiple files. 

                                                              Joe,

                                                               

                                                              My camera software from Sony and Pansonic (both) has three redeeming values. 

                                                               

                                                              1.  They will cut, trim and join losslessly, but only clips from the associated camera.  If lossless editing is a goal, there are very few ways to do it, especially with AVCHD.

                                                               

                                                              2.  They will put clips back on the SD card or camera should you want to use the camera as a playback device.  That might be useful if you were to shoot HD sports footage, want to take it to a little league meeting and don't know what the playback TV is.  My Panasonic AVCHD camcorder came with cords for everything! 

                                                               

                                                              3.  The software will run well on weak computers.  

                                                               

                                                              I too have only done a couple shoots where the clips were so long as to require joining. 

                                                              • 28. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
                                                                jmklein Level 1

                                                                Thanks Bill.  May have to break out the old software...or download latest from Canon's site.  Could be useful, as you pointed out.

                                                                • 29. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
                                                                  wmhanks Level 1

                                                                  Joe, Bill, and A.T.,

                                                                   

                                                                  Your comments have opened a number of paths that I hadn't considered. Thanks for that.

                                                                   

                                                                  This is just an update on the project I'm working on now - editing footage from a radio program that my friend does weekly on KOOP in Austin. This particular show featured a distinguished guest, Dan Rather and his daughter Robin.

                                                                   

                                                                  Our friend who did the original photography used two cameras: an AVCHD camcorder and a Canon DSLR. It was the DSLR that was breaking up the continuous sequence into 5 or 6 minute segments. I just brought all those clips into Pro, stuck them together on the timeline, synced with master audio, and exported. That gave me a continuous sequence again. So, with the sequence from the AVCHD, I can edit as a two camera shoot.

                                                                   

                                                                  I started editing the project with Adobe Premier Elements 11 which seemed like it would work well. I had used it before to cut some music performances, but they were all singe camera shoots. I quickly realized that a multicam capability was needed to accomplish my project goals without an inordinate amount of "workarounds".

                                                                   

                                                                  I downloaded the trial for Adobe Premier Pro CC and started going through the tutorials. After the usual learning curve, I found it to be a great program. It had the features I wanted They were not so arcane as to be difficult to grasp. And, with the tutorials, I was soon doing what I wanted to do fairly effortlessly.

                                                                   

                                                                  This project will take longer than the trial period so now I have to make a decision about keeping it by paying the subscription fee, buying an earlier stand alone version, or going to another program. The decision is difficult because I have come to like this application.

                                                                   

                                                                  There is an option for a Creative Cloud (CC) single application fee (instead of the whole lineup of Adobe products) which I think is about $20 a month. I hardly use my Netflix account anymore so if I dropped that I would be out only an additional $12 or so a month. I guess the subscription model is something I have some built-in resistance to but, it offers (excuse me) a lot of bang for the buck.

                                                                   

                                                                  The choice would be easy if I had even one paying client a month. But alas, I'm retired and mostly do pro-bono work. I still have about 10 days to decide. But your contributions have helped clarify my thoughts on this. Keep me updated on your adventures.

                                                                   

                                                                  Thanks to all, Mike Hanks

                                                                  • 30. Re: 2 cam double system sound?
                                                                    whsprague Level 4

                                                                    Mike,

                                                                     

                                                                    Thanks for the update.  I too am retired.  Or, at least jobless for now.

                                                                     

                                                                    I think I understand Adobe's approach.  They have a large collection of creative tools for people that make a living using them.  The CC rental plan seems perfect for that.

                                                                     

                                                                    We retired or hobbyist folks are apparently a market too small to worry about.  There is no way that I can rationalize giving Adobe $600 a year to use their cool stuff.  If I was "working" at it, the $600 would be a deductible expense!  As a retired guy, it cost too much.

                                                                     

                                                                    For now, I will adapt my shooting techniques to the lower cost model of Lightroom, Photoshop Elements and Premier Elements.  Do note that if Adobe wants me to send them money, they will have to add more features than they did this year.  I was looking foreword to spending on an upgrade from Elements 11 to 12.  But, there is nothing in the newer version to even begin temptation!

                                                                     

                                                                    The Adobe switch to the CC cloud may be brilliant for the commercially dependent market, but it does little for the hobby/enthusiast/ amateur group.

                                                                     

                                                                    Bill