26 Replies Latest reply on Oct 30, 2013 3:05 PM by areohbee

    How can I use LR as an Editor while using Elements Organizer as the Database?

    LinusF Level 1

      I started this question in the LR newbie section of the forum but maybe a few more eyes should see the question. 

       

      Simply put, I want to stay with Elements Organizer as the database of my holdings. (Yes, I've tried the LR analog and it does not do as well for me.)

       

      I'd like to mouse a file ovfer to LR, do edits in LR, and then get the finished product back to Elements.  I suspect that is an EXPORT issue on LR's part but am not sure.

       

      Are there others who have a similar requirement?

       

      How should I proceed?

        • 1. Re: How can I use LR as an Editor while using Elements Organizer as the Database?
          JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          You're really going to try this again? 

          • 2. Re: How can I use LR as an Editor while using Elements Organizer as the Database?
            areohbee Level 5

            Do you want PE to "catalog" original source files, or just files already edited in Lightroom?

             

            For example: original raw and exported jpeg, or just exported jpeg.

             

            If both, do you want jpeg in same folder as raw, sibling folder, separate tree...?

            • 3. Re: How can I use LR as an Editor while using Elements Organizer as the Database?
              JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              Since I am apparently the one who drove the OP away from the other discussion, I will interject this one comment to see if I can simulate the discussion. If anyone has a creative idea for him it would be you, Rob. Basically, the OP wants to use Lightroom as the "external editor" from PSE.

               

               

              http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1315772?tstart=0

              • 4. Re: How can I use LR as an Editor while using Elements Organizer as the Database?
                areohbee Level 5

                I can imagine a solution that would look something like this, in a nutshell:

                 

                * Auto-import in Lightroom to receive photos to edit.

                * Publish service to return edited photos to PSE.

                 

                However, I'm not clear enough on the details to say much more at this point.

                 

                Rob

                • 5. Re: How can I use LR as an Editor while using Elements Organizer as the Database?
                  JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  One of the things that complicates the workflow that you want is that the images must be imported into Lightroom.  They have to be part of the catalog.  There is no provision for you to simply choose a photo and then edit that photo using Lightroom.  The Lightroom process isn't designed to work on individual images that are not in the catalog.  So, if we understand that, then here is a possible workflow.  It isn't one that I would recommend, but it is possible.

                   

                  1.  Copy your images into your PSE folder structure and organize them the way you want them.

                  2.  If there are images that you want to work on with Lightroom, you can copy them to a folder that is  a " watched folder" in Lightroom.

                  3.  When you open Lightroom, it will automatically import the images in that watched folder and you can work on them using Lightroom.

                  4.  When you are finished with the images in Lightroom you could export copies back to the original PSE folder.

                  5.  You could then go back to PSE, and your original images plus the copies of the work you did in Lightroom would all be in the folder.

                   

                  It's an awkward workflow.  But it's really about the only sensible(?) way that it could be done.

                  • 6. Re: How can I use LR as an Editor while using Elements Organizer as the Database?
                    LinusF Level 1

                    Hi, Rob.  Yours is an interesting question and the answer may help move the issue along. 

                     

                    My database is in PSE Organizer and I definitely wish it to remain there.  I now have two(Adobe) editors (PSE Editor & CS6) plus Bridge and ACR which Iuse. They all work fine together.  I can see certain times where being able to use LR as an external editor --- even if I have to re-import the edited product into the PSE Organizer catalog (as happens already with CS).  No biggie. 

                     

                    I basically get images from my cameras/scanners/family members in RAW & JPG, some TIF.  I keep edited files usually in JPG or TIF, but also in RAW, PNG, PSD, PSB, PDF.  I keep originals of files in stacks whenever I can see the advantage and possibility of technical improvement in a future update to an editor.  Keeping all the pix of the grand kids in RAW is, to me, a waste of space and so JPG often is my final extension.  While the images in slide shows, videos (via PSE PREMIER), and other products qualifiy as keepers too, stacked with the current version.

                     

                    So, I'd like to add LR to my quiver of editor arrows.  But I need to keep at least my most current version in the PSE Watched folder and in the PSE catalog.  For backup and simplicity sake, ALL the 50,000+ images now in the catalog in 88 sub-folders are under one top level folder.  The actual catalog itself is on another hard drive (and the executables are on a third hard drive).

                     

                    How might I leverage LR? 

                    • 7. Re: How can I use LR as an Editor while using Elements Organizer as the Database?
                      areohbee Level 5

                      Hi Linus,

                       

                      I'm admittedly out on a limb here, since I have zero experience with Photoshop Elements. On the plus side, I have lots of experience with Lightroom, and plugins which may help.

                       

                      As Jim said, photos have to be added to Lightroom catalog to be edited, and the 2 possible ways which spring to mind are:

                      * Manual Import

                      * Automatic Import

                      Manual may not be so bad, since you can drag a file (maybe direct from PE, but certainly from OS) and drop it in the library grid, and Lr's import dialog box will open with only that photo selected and 'Add' as the way to import it (as opposed to 'Copy', 'Move', or 'Convert to DNG'). So, all you'd have to do is click the 'OK' (actually it's 'Import') button.

                       

                      The problem with Lr's automatic import is that it only supports one watched folder, so you'd have to copy files to it, and then info needed to export it to the correct place for return to PE has been lost, so I recommend using Jeffrey Friedl's Folder Watch plugin, or my very own Ottomanic Importer if you choose to go that route. That way, when you export or publish them they'll be where you want them to be (same folder as original, if I understood you correctly).

                       

                      For return to PE, I'd recommend TreeSyncPublisher. I mean, if you are only ever editing once, and always doing one at a time, then a simple export will suffice, but if you want to edit (and/or re-edit) in batch, a publish service will save you some confusion, since you don't have to remember which photos you edited - just click 'Publish'.

                       

                      I assume you have some way for PE to recognize new files created by publishing in Lr, and updates to existing files...

                       

                      You may have to experiment to come up with something that suits well enough - keep us posted..

                       

                      Rob

                      1 person found this helpful
                      • 8. Re: How can I use LR as an Editor while using Elements Organizer as the Database?
                        LinusF Level 1

                        Now I think we're cooking.

                         

                        It is easy to bring one or more iumages over from the PSE Organizer simply by dragging them.  And exporting them is straightforward, usually, again. If the image(s) go back to the original --- watched --- folder and have the original extension, then it only requires a refresh of the thumbnail to display in the Organizer.  If the extension has changed, then the watched folder should present a screen requesting user disposition instructions.  Again, easy.

                         

                        The trick may be saving the original RAW image back to the Organizer file.  But maybe I can just keep some images in LR's catalog as a 'backup'.

                         

                        A)  Just how do you think I can export images to a folder outside the LR catalog without keeping any file in LR's catalog?

                         

                        B) Then, how would I export images to that PSE-watched folder and  to an LR-specific folder, not watched by PSE?

                         

                        Thanks a bunch

                        • 9. Re: How can I use LR as an Editor while using Elements Organizer as the Database?
                          JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          Linus,

                          I know I ruffled your feathers in the other forum, and I apologize.

                           

                           

                          A. After you export your images. You can highlight them all, right-click, and choose to remove them. That will remove them from Lightroom, but will leave them on your hard drive. You can also right-click on the folder in the library module and choose to remove the folder. The same is true, the files will still be on your hard drive.

                           

                           

                          B. You could create Lightroom presets to export images to both of those folders. You would want to run your export before you remove the folder/files from Lightroom.

                           

                          In this type of workflow, you've got to make sure that you have enabled the "Write changes to XMP" option, or all of your Lightroom changes will be lost when you remove the files from Lightroom. Even though there are no XMP files for DNG or non-raw files, this option will ensure that changes become part of the file.

                           

                          The only reason we were advising against that is because it seems to be adding a lot of extra work. If you have your keywords set up and have your folders organized properly Lightroom is very easy to locate files. But I understand that the Lightroom workflow isn't for everyone. I hated it when I first tried it. And maybe those of us who are using Lightroom extensively are drinking the "Lightroom Kool-Aid". I hope you are able to develop a comfortable workflow.

                          1 person found this helpful
                          • 10. Re: How can I use LR as an Editor while using Elements Organizer as the Database?
                            areohbee Level 5

                            LinusF wrote:

                             

                            Now I think we're cooking.

                            Good to hear. I confess I was not able to follow everything you wrote - it was difficult for me to follow because I was not sure which things were happening in Lightroom, and which things in PE (or OS) - plus: I dunno how PE works.

                             

                            That said, it seems simplest to me to do everything in place and not use any watched folders - on either end, if possible.

                             

                            i.e. import PE photos in Lr to edit, export Lr-edited files back to PE for cataloging (Lr-exported files adjacent to originals, i.e. in same folder on disk). - would that work?

                             

                            Perhaps you can get the rest of the way on your own, and I should bow out at this point. If you do need some more assistance, it might be best provided by somebody else who has more experience with PE.

                             

                            I mean, I can still do what I can to help, but this is all seeming pretty nebulous to me now.

                             

                            Can anybody answer how xmp works between PE & Lr - same file? level of compatibility? ... or, does PE not read/write xmp?

                             

                            Rob

                            1 person found this helpful
                            • 11. Re: How can I use LR as an Editor while using Elements Organizer as the Database?
                              LinusF Level 1

                              I think you've got the right idea.  Thanks.

                              • 12. Re: How can I use LR as an Editor while using Elements Organizer as the Database?
                                areohbee Level 5

                                You're certainly welcome. If you iron out an optimal workflow, I'd love to hear about it...

                                 

                                Or, if you change your mind about doing it... - do tell .

                                 

                                Thank you too ,

                                Rob

                                • 13. Re: How can I use LR as an Editor while using Elements Organizer as the Database?
                                  LinusF Level 1

                                  Yep. I'll do that.  Might be a while before I have the time to really sort things out.

                                  Right now I have an ancillary problem.  Before I fully understood the complete workins of LR, I did some edts and liked the results.  Then I made one of the PSE Watched sub folders also the LR folder.  Then things a bit complex.  The bottomline is that maybe a 1000 of so filesedited in LR have been lost to PSE but are maybe in LR's catalog.  The question is, how do I get them from LR's grasp and back into PSE's loving hands.  (he he)

                                  • 14. Re: How can I use LR as an Editor while using Elements Organizer as the Database?
                                    areohbee Level 5

                                    LinusF wrote:

                                     

                                    Right now I have an ancillary problem.

                                    Bummer. Well, somehow you'll need to find those files, in Lr, or on disk via OS anyway. Once you do that, then we can talk about how to get them where/how they need to be... eh?

                                    • 15. Re: How can I use LR as an Editor while using Elements Organizer as the Database?
                                      LinusF Level 1

                                      Okay.  I'm chugging along in getting all the once --- and future --- files into the current PSE catalog. 

                                      One trick is out there where you could help.  In checking out LR I set up LR's Folder as my PSE folder.  It seems to have "taken" about 1000 images from recent phtogrraphs as its own ---and PSE does not have acdcess to them even though they are physically located in a PSE watched folder.

                                      Question:  How does one back out of any and all LR cataloging and export (or whatever the LR term is) all the files from the LR system?  I think once I have cleaned out the LR holdings I will have all the "missing" PSE files while also zeroing LR';s holdings so that I can use LR one file/group of files at a time.  Retail as it were rather than wholesale.  Can do?

                                      • 16. Re: How can I use LR as an Editor while using Elements Organizer as the Database?
                                        JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        In the library module, right click on the folder in the left hand panel and choose to remove.  That will remove that folder from Lightroom.  The other way is to select all of the images, press the delete key, and choose to remove them.  Exporting will not export the original from the catalog and leave no trace.  Exporting allows for you to export a copy containing your Lightroom changes.  Images that are not wanted in the Lightroom catalog have to be removed.

                                        • 17. Re: How can I use LR as an Editor while using Elements Organizer as the Database?
                                          areohbee Level 5

                                          LinusF wrote:

                                           

                                          PSE does not have acdcess to them

                                          Nothing Lr does should prevent PSE access (it just records in the catalog where files are located on disk, but doesn't "pull them in", or "lock anybody else out"). So, I'm at a loss to help - not sure what the problem is...

                                          • 18. Re: How can I use LR as an Editor while using Elements Organizer as the Database?
                                            JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                            I have never used Photoshop Elements, so I'm totally unfamiliar with their organizer and the catalog that is involved. But I wonder if it's possible that because the Lightroom catalog is open and pointing to those images, could it possibly be making them unavailable to the Elements catalog.  Even though Lightroom isn't doing anything to the images, I'm wondering if just having the catalog open is enough to confuse Elements.  I'm not saying that is so, just wondering.

                                            • 19. Re: How can I use LR as an Editor while using Elements Organizer as the Database?
                                              JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                               

                                              Linus,

                                              I know you don't want to hear from me. And I suspect you will tell me not to contribute on this thread anymore. But I must say, just one more time, that you are trying to force the system to work completely backwards from how it has been designed. In Elements, Lightroom "basically" replaces the organizer and Camera Raw. In Photoshop, Lightroom "basically" replaces Bridge and Camera Raw. In both programs, the raw image is passed from Lightroom to the other program for editing. It isn't designed to flow the way you are trying to make it flow. I know, you don't believe that, and are convinced that you can make it work the other way. I wish you all the success in accomplishing what you are after. But even if you do get something to work, it's going to take a lot of manual management on your part.

                                              • 20. Re: How can I use LR as an Editor while using Elements Organizer as the Database?
                                                LinusF Level 1

                                                The good news is the 'lost' images have been ressurected.  Simply put two things were in action and, I think, I've successfully re-righted the ship.

                                                First off, the images which were in the long-standing watched PSE folder were re-acquired by the PSE catalog simply by aiming PSE import at those folders.  They were then brought back in, with the tag metadata intact.

                                                Second, I discovered that the Adobe Active File Monitor v10 has gotten a little flakey.  It might be that LR handles things differently or that AAFM v12 steps on it from time to time and turns it off.  The bottomline is that it does not alert when 'new' files are introduced to the PSE watched folder.  I haven't fully mastered the whys nor the fixes but can document the behavior.

                                                  As regards LR, importing and exporting seem to work as a stable work flow.  That said, I think going forward I will be using PSE and PS for Photographers (with Bridge & ACR).  The few things which go more easily/better in LR are very few --- and LR still needs the PSE Editor or PS for Photographers for some things.  Why complicate life?

                                                Thanks to all.  It has been a slog.

                                                • 21. Re: How can I use LR as an Editor while using Elements Organizer as the Database?
                                                  areohbee Level 5

                                                  LinusF wrote:

                                                   

                                                  The few things which go more easily/better in LR are very few.  Why complicate life?

                                                  There are plenty of photographer people who are familiar with Lightroom but prefer an Adobe-based workflow without it (e.g. Bridge-centric, or PSE-centric) - there is more than one way to reach a goal, and something to be said for simplicity...

                                                   

                                                  Personally, I think Lightroom has huge potential, but is kinda "stalling" - in-Lr slideshow (still) sucks, long-standing bugs and gaping/glaring holes continue to abound... - I hate it , but I also love it! .

                                                   

                                                  I especially like publish services, since one can just click 'Publish' after editing and all is handled. That said, publish services have some aggravating new bugs (@Lr5) that take some of the fun out of publish services - grrrr.

                                                   

                                                  Thanks for reporting back LinusF,

                                                  Rob

                                                  • 22. Re: How can I use LR as an Editor while using Elements Organizer as the Database?
                                                    b2martin_a Level 2

                                                    I use Photoshop CS6 Adobe Camera RAW to edit RAW and JPG files.  I am considering using Lightroom 5 to edit instead of ACR since I don't want to use Photoshop CC and this will allow me to have the latest RAW converter in Lightroom.  I also don't need or want to use the database capabilities of Lightroom, so I am looking at the following flow which might also work for this poster.  My images for editing (RAW and JPG) are in folders by shoot and outputs from the edits are in different folders by shoot. 

                                                     

                                                    1. Import images for editing into Lightroom.  This does not move the actual files, only records the location of the files in Lightroom. I have Lightroom set to save edits in xmp files. 

                                                    2. Complete edits using Lightroom. 

                                                    3. Export  edits (JPG, TIF, Etc) to a different folder.

                                                    4. Delete images from the Lightroom Library.  This leaves the Lightroom Library empty, but the edits are saved in xmp files in the folder with the RAW files or in the JPG or TIF files if editing those file types.  If I need to do additional edits in the futrue I just import them into Lightroom again and follow the above flow. 

                                                     

                                                    Do you see any problems with this flow? 

                                                    • 23. Re: How can I use LR as an Editor while using Elements Organizer as the Database?
                                                      JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                      It will work. But it certainly isn't a workflow I would want to be tied to. If it works for you, great.

                                                      • 24. Re: How can I use LR as an Editor while using Elements Organizer as the Database?
                                                        areohbee Level 5

                                                        b2martin_a,

                                                         

                                                        In general, I think you've got the Lr side of the workflow down: add-in-place, edit, save xmp, export, remove from catalog.

                                                         

                                                        The only question the OP may still have is how that fits with the PSE catalog/database end of things - I don't have enough knowledge about that to comment very meaningfully.

                                                         

                                                        Note: at some point, you may begin to wonder: why am I removing from catalog, then adding back, then removing, then adding back, when I could just leave in. The answer I assume is: so I don't get confused between newly added photos to edit, and those pre-existing from a previous edit. Lightroom has tools to help with such, but beware: if you begin to learn how to use such tools, pretty soon you'll be wondering: why am I not simply using Lightroom for cataloging and editing both. Don't get me wrong: perhaps your existing infrastructure/workflow is best preserved/optimized without support from Lr database - I'm not here to judge, just thought I'd plant a little seed....

                                                         

                                                        Cheers,

                                                        Rob

                                                        • 25. Re: How can I use LR as an Editor while using Elements Organizer as the Database?
                                                          b2martin_a Level 2

                                                          Thanks Rob and Jim.  I realize this does not use all the capability of Lightroom, but this allows me to use Lightroom just like I use Bridge and Camera RAW in Photoshop CS6.  I can move files anywhere I like, from computer to computer and no problems with a Lightroom catalog - this does what I want. 

                                                           

                                                          I don't know anything about PE either, so not sure it will be what the op wants.  I thought I would post it in case it will work for him. 

                                                           

                                                          I realize that the more I use Lightroom the database function may start to look good, but I have not even started using it yet - purchased Lightroom 5 less than a week ago. 

                                                          • 26. Re: How can I use LR as an Editor while using Elements Organizer as the Database?
                                                            areohbee Level 5

                                                            b2martin_a wrote:

                                                             

                                                            I can move files anywhere I like...

                                                            Point taken - very good reason to remove from Lr catalog.

                                                             

                                                            I understand if you already have a working system in place, motivation for fixing it (with "help" from Lr/catalog) when it's not broken runs low... - keep us posted..

                                                             

                                                            Truth betold, I've changed my mind about the viability of such a workflow - there may very well be a lot of people who want to enjoy such a workflow - e.g. those who prefer 3rd party cataloging software, and don't own Photoshop/Bridge (but want to use ACR for editing raw files).

                                                             

                                                            Table has turned - I tried to plant a seed in you for using Lr that I thought might grow, but now you've planted a seed in me that's growing... - I guess I'm not as hard-headed as I thought .

                                                             

                                                            PS - About parties:

                                                            1st party: me (and if you are the one speaking, then you).

                                                            2nd party: the other "primary" - Adobe, in this case.

                                                            3rd party: not me, and not Adobe, i.e. everybody else...

                                                            4th party: good name for a rock band, but generally only serves to confuse when one attempts to use in other contexts....

                                                             

                                                            Rob