1 2 Previous Next 48 Replies Latest reply on Oct 28, 2013 9:16 AM by 13macfil

    If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)

    PierreLouisBeranek Level 1

      Ever wonder what a word processing program by Adobe would look like?

      I have.  It would be full of Adobe-style timesaving Shortcuts, such as:

       

      Being able to delete text on page 34 while you're looking at page 2, or

      Being able to bold, resize and italicize text on page 7 while looking at page 15

       

      Sound ridiculous?  That's because it is!  Yet, as ridiculous as it might sound for a word processing program to allow users to do this, that's the same nonsense that goes on in Premiere Pro.

      For example, here are some of the things users can all too easily do to selected media that isn't even in the visible portion of their Timeline:

      1. Delete clips
      2. Ripple delete clips
      3. Modify Video/Audio effects
      4. Modify Motion settings
      5. and now in PP CC, even add video/audio transitions

       

      Which long time Premiere editor has never deleted an unseen selected clip by mistake, only to discover the mistake long after the fact (when no number of Undos could fix the problem)?

      Which new CC editor has never mistakenly added transitions to unseen selected clips?

       

      Are there any situations when users would actually want to change Timeline content that isn't within the Timeline's visible bounds?

      Apparently Adobe thinks so.  Could it be Adobe programmers feel that actually seeing the clips you're modifying is somehow unnecessary and even passé?

       

      It doesn't take a genius to see just how incredibly stupid this is!  IMHO, the ability to erroneously modify unseen clips in so many different ways, makes Premiere Pro unnecessarily prone to user mistakes, while providing 0 benefits in return.

       

      My proposed solution is simple.  Let's unite and all send Adobe (www.adobe.com/go/wish) the following official Feature Request, for the benefit of PP users:

       

      *******Enhancement / FMR*********

      Brief title for your desired feature:

      Only allow clips that are within the visible portion of the Timeline to be modified.

       

      How would you like the feature to work?

      Never allow selected clips that fall completely outside the visible bounds of the Timeline to be:

      -Deleted

      -Ripple Deleted

      -have video/audio transitions added to them

      -modified in the Effect Controls window

      -etc.

      Note: If a clip selection is partially within the viewable bounds of the Timeline, then all relevant actions above should be allowed.

       

      Why is this feature important to you?

      I can't think of a single instance in which any user would ever want to modify selected clips that are completely outside the visible bounds of their Timeline.  The ability to change unseen clips provides zero user benefits while making Premiere Pro extremely prone to user errors.  Please fix this by only allowing users to modify clips that are within the visible portion of their Timeline.

       

      User attempts to modify unseen clips could bring up a discrete warning, such as a small red bar that would flash once over the track(s) that have the unseen selected clips.  For example, if a user hits the Delete key while there's selected clips on V1, V2 and A2 to the left side of the Timeline's visible portion, small red bars would flash once on the left-hand edge of tracks V1, V2 and A2.  This would visually inform users that they have unseen selected clips on those tracks, and therefore the current 'Delete' command can't be used since the selected clips are outside the visible range of the Timeline.

      For the sake of accommodating the preference of all users, this visual warning could be turned on/off in PP CC's new Timeline wing menu.

       

      *********************

      The more we speak up to let Adobe know how we want our software to work, the bigger our chance of eventually getting it, so lets all pitch in!  If you've ever modified an unseen selected clip by mistake, please do your part and Copy/paste the FR above to send it to Adobe, or write your own version.  Thank you!

        • 1. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
          Steven L. Gotz Level 5

          You have addressed a lot of topics here, but let me just point out the one that bothered me right off the bat.

           

          I don't want to have to see the entire timeline just to take out a little bit of video and have the ripple delete work correctly. Your way seems to indicate that if I can't see the entire timeline, the ripple will all of a sudden fail, just outside of the visible range. That would be extremely inconvenient. Whoi the heck wants a hole to appear in the sequence? The whole point of Ripple Delete is to prevent such holes.

           

          Now, if you added a modifier key to make it work your way, that would be OK, I guess. But they should not mess with ripple delete the way it works now. It would be disastrous. The shouts of protest would ring throughout the world.

           

          i don't generally keep a bunch of clips selected, so the whole conversation about transitions doesn't apply to me. But if I select the entire timeline then zoom in a bit, I may very well want to apply the transitions to all the clips. Why not? I selected them. I can easily unselect them if I so desire.

           

          Also, I commonly apply attributes to every clip on the sequence, or the ones I have selected, anyway. You want me to have to zoom out to do that? No way. Leave that alone also.

           

          In fact, if you don't like the way Adobe does things, feel free to ask for changes, but they are asking for trouble if they do it your way. They have enough trouble without changing to satisfy a former FCP user.

           

          If your way is so great, why don't you just edit with FCP?

          • 2. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
            Jim_Simon Level 8

            IMHO, the ability to erroneously modify unseen clips in so many different ways, makes Premiere Pro unnecessarily prone to user mistakes, while providing 0 benefits in return.

             

            I disagree.  The opportunity for operator error may be slightly increased, but the benefit is saved time on some functions.  I find that very real benefit outweighing the potential for error.

             

            Bottom line, it makes much more sense for you to get used to the new way things are done than for Adobe to spend limited time and resources taking a step back to help ensure that you don't make a mistake.

             

            On a side note, you actually can delete text from page 34 while viewing page 2, if that text is selected first. That is the normal and expected behavior here.  The requested operation is performed on the selection, even if that selection is off screen.

            • 4. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
              PierreLouisBeranek Level 1

              Steven,

              It's clear from your response that you don't even understand the details of my FR.

              Did you miss the part where I wrote: "Note: If a clip selection is partially within the viewable bounds of the Timeline, then all relevant actions above should be allowed."  This means if any action, such as a Ripple Delete is performed on a clip(s)/clip selection that is partially visible in the Timeline, in would work as it currently does (Rippling all clips in and out of the visible range). If the user tries to Ripple Delete selected clips that are completely out of view of the timeline, then the action would not be allowed, in order to prevent users from deleting clips by mistake and not even immediately seeing the result of that action.  I thought it was already clear, but hopefully this clarifies it even further.

               

              I'm talking about Premiere not allowing users to edit selected clips that are completely out of view on the Timeline.  Chances are that if a user has selected clips that are completely out of view on the Timeline, he/she has forgotten about those selected clips and does not want to be able to modify those clips by mistake.

               

              Regarding suggesting that I go to FCP just because you didn't like a FR request I posted, which you didn't even care to understand fully before responding... really?

               

               

              Jim,

              How often do you actually want to perform edits on selected clips that are completely outside the visible bounds of your Timeline?  When does doing so actually save you time or provide you with a 'very real benefit' as you say?  In my case, never.  I'm guessing in the case of most people, it's never as well.  I'd appreciate it if you could provide an example of when being able to do this is useful because I can't think of any.  Thanks

               

              Perhaps another approach would be to allow off screen changes to be made, as is currently the case, but have the red bar warnings I mention.  This way, users would know everytime they change media that's off screen.

               

              The ideal solution might be to have this as a preference:  An 'Allow changes to off-screen Timeline clips' checkbox.  When checked, things would work the error-prone way they currently do.  Unchecked, they'd work the way I suggest.  The red warning indicators could also be turned on/off as I mention in my FR.  What do you guys think?

               

               

              I sure would find this forum a much friendlier/more civilized place if people tried to help each other with constructive suggestions rather than just dismissing each other's ideas and making ridiculous comments such as 'if you don't like it, go back to FCP'.

              • 5. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                Steven L. Gotz Level 5

                Did you miss the part where I wrote: "Note: If a clip selection is partially within the viewable bounds of the Timeline, then all relevant actions above should be allowed."  This means if any action, such as a Ripple Delete is performed on a clip(s)/clip selection that is partially visible in the Timeline, in would work as it currently does (Rippling all clips in and out of the visible range). If the user tries to Ripple Delete selected clips that are completely out of view of the timeline, then the action would not be allowed, in order to prevent users from deleting clips by mistake and not even immediately seeing the result of that action.  I thought it was already clear, but hopefully this clarifies it even further.

                No, it was not at all clear. Better now.

                 

                If a clip selection is partially in... does not say that the next clip on the timeline would also be allowed to follow standard procedure.

                 

                I get you now, but I still don't understand what you are doing with a bunch of clips selected. I never do that for more than one action, and not often at that. Why are you selecting everything, including what you can't see? And how did you select it if you can't see it unless you used the track select tool, but why would you do that and not click off to deselect when you were done with whatever action you selected them for?

                • 6. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                  Jim_Simon Level 8

                  How often do you actually want to perform edits on selected clips that are completely outside the visible bounds of your Timeline?

                   

                  Honestly, that's not something I keep stats on.  But the ability to do it is normal and expected behavior, even for CS6.

                  • 7. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                    PierreLouisBeranek Level 1

                    Hi Steven, I'm glad I was able to clarify it for you.  (The issue you mentioned of gaps appearing due to unseen clips not rippling in tandem is something that I would never want either since it woudln't make any sense, so I understand you resistance when you thought that that's what I was suggesting!  However asking for clarification first before responding would always be much appreciated.)

                     

                    To answer your question:

                    Selecting a clip in PP is as easy as clicking on in, and I click on clips all the time for various reason: to adjust it's motion/effects/audio parameters, trim it, move it's location, etc, etc.  When zooming in/out of the Timeline and jumping around to different parts of your project, it's all too easy to forget that there was a selected clip that got hidden from view.  When this happens, why would a user ever want that unseen and most likely forgotten selected clip to delete/ripple delete/get transitions/etc.  Worst of all, when this happens, it usually happens without the user even getting any visual feedback that a change was made!  From an efficient/logical workflow perspective, this just doesn't make any sense and can all too easily lead to errors.

                     

                    It happened to me a few times that I'd discover there's a missing clip in my Timeline, long after I'd be able to recover it with Undos...  Compliments of Premiere Pro's ability to delete selected clips that aren't even visible.  I rarely make mistakes like this anymore, but when I write feature requests, I write them thinking about all Premiere Pro users, not just myself.  I imagine that editors new to Premiere and to editing in general are making these dreaded mistakes all too often, and that's just not good.

                     

                    Hope this info helps.

                    • 8. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                      PierreLouisBeranek Level 1

                      Jim, I take it by your answer that there is in fact no good reason you can come up with for users to be able to delete selected clips after they are moved completely out of view.

                       

                      Just because a workflow issue becomes 'normal' and 'expected behavior' due to it being around for so long is hardly a valid argument for keeping the problem around any longer. 

                      • 9. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                        Jim_Simon Level 8

                        You read too much into my answer, Pierre.

                         

                        And you're the only one in this thread who sees this behavior as a problem.  The three of us who've responded so far want this ability to remain.

                         

                        The operation is performed on the selected clips, whether or not they're in view.  If you don't want that to happen, deselect first.

                        • 10. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                          shooternz Level 6

                          Which long time Premiere editor has never deleted an unseen selected clip by mistake, only to discover the mistake long after the fact (when no number of Undos could fix the problem)?

                          Which new CC editor has never mistakenly added transitions to unseen selected clips?

                          Well I never have... in either of above situations.

                           

                          You seem to be aiming a FR that "idiot proofs" Premiere.

                           

                          By definition  "a FR for idiots".

                          • 11. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                            PierreLouisBeranek Level 1

                            'FR for idiots' shooternz?  Are you implying that only 'idiots' would ever forget to de-select a selected clip that's out of view?  If so, you've just insulted a great number of PP editors.

                             

                            I'm suggesting that Premiere Pro be less prone to user errors, by removing funtions that can lead to errors while providing zero benefits in return.  If you've never made those mistakes, congratulations.  Now is it so hard to appreciate the fact that this FR might help other users?

                             

                            It seems that the difference here between me and the other posters is that I care enough about Premiere to see it become better not just for myself but for other people as well, including beginners.  I'm not just in it for myself, supporting ideas only if I see them as good for myself and bashing them if I feel otherwise.  Should Adobe not have included the new 'Join through edit' function, since only 'idiots' make mistakes such as a cut they'll later want to remove?

                             

                            I would appreciate it if other posters in this thread helped keep the tone positive by contributing to, rather than destroying a perfectly valid idea that would without a doubt help many Premiere Pro editors other than themselves.  Just because something wouldn't help you personally doesn't mean you should try to prevent it from helping others.  The ill-spirited comments here are indicative of the nature of the posters, and not of the value of the FR itself.

                             

                            Unless someone can prove that modifying unseen selected clips is of actual value in any situation, which has yet to be done, I'll stand firm by my belief that Adobe should remove options that harm, rather than ever help, a user's workflow.

                            • 12. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                              shooternz Level 6

                              Are you implying that only 'idiots' would ever forget to de-select a selected clip that's out of view?  If so, you've just insulted a great number of PP editors.

                              1. Yes

                               

                              2. I doubt it is as common as you say so not many will be insulted.

                               

                              Stupid is stupid ..and most editors go whoops ...then just fix it.

                               

                              Tell me why any editor would just randomly push Delete Key or Apply Effect without seeing the consequences of the action...then not ask them selves..what did I just do?

                              • 13. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                                Jim_Simon Level 8

                                I'm suggesting that Premiere Pro be less prone to user errors, by removing functions that can lead to errors while providing zero benefits in return.

                                 

                                Again, I must disagree.  There is benefit in being able to perform the operation on the selected clips.  Whether or not they are in view is incidental.  You select the clips, you give the command, the operation is performed.  This should always be true.

                                 

                                There are probably infinite ways an editor can make an error.  The only way to get rid of them all is to stop being an editor.  The only real solution here is for the editor to pay more attention to what he's doing.

                                • 15. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                                  Steven L. Gotz Level 5

                                  I also concur.

                                   

                                  Even though I understand the issue better now, I still see an advantage to selecting a large number of clips, then zooming in to see the exact amount of movement or whatever I am applying. I get that most people would still have some of the selection visible, but just because I might not have it visible doesn't mean that I am not applying the effect or transition or whatever, on purpose. I take responsibility for my actions.

                                   

                                  Yes, I suppose I could zoom back out, but what if I don't want to? Why should I have to? To stop you from making a mistake? That isn't fair to me. What if I want to select something, go to a different spot on the timeline, look at something and then apply what I want to apply? That's my business.

                                   

                                  Idiot proofing is not the way to get a robust program to work. Training users is the way to get a program to work for each user.

                                  • 16. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                                    SpareWheel Level 2

                                    I sure would find this forum a much friendlier/more civilized place if people tried to help each other with constructive suggestions rather than just dismissing each other's ideas and making ridiculous comments such as 'if you don't like it, go back to FCP'.

                                     

                                    My comments are not directed to the OP, but offer a more general viewpoint.

                                     

                                    As a reader of this forum for a few years, I am seeing an increase in a defensive position by some frequent contributors. Generally, the tone can sound dismissive. Further, I think we also need to be alert that the writers and promoters of a particular product (especially on new-product-launch days) can provide another element of the PR and marketing mix.

                                     

                                    But, I have also noticed that some questions and comments are being raised by individuals showing limited experience.

                                     

                                    Seemingly, today's video "enthusiast" wants to shoot and cut-it-like-a-pro - now. They aspire to be be great without really understanding that it takes a solid grounding in the fundamentals of audio and video technology - plus lots of experience.

                                     

                                    Prem Pro requires a better understanding of audio and video, and the edit and post production process. I know of people who cut using other NLE packages who simply want to "produce" a video in the quickest and easiest way. You often read a new post in this forum that starts or contains: "... I am not very technical, but..."

                                     

                                    I would imagine that subscription licensing recently introduced has made Adobe more affordable to the aspiring new-start, or for those with experience of other "plug & play" type of NLEs as I call them. As a result, learning a new workflow and the fundamentals in Adobe is a steeper learning curve and the requirement to "do it some other way" becomes greater.

                                     

                                    I use CS5.5. I won't "upgrade" to anything further because I have the tool to do the job I require. If some people can't use the tool provided, then the onus is on them to learn the trade and the craft in relation to their tool of choice, rather than to ask to make the tool different according to the way THEY currently work.

                                     

                                    And as to the MS Word Document analogy referred to by the OP. You still needed to know how to use the tool properly, especially if you wanted to produce a more complex document. Even so, I still did "silly" things and lost stuff when Windows 3.2 went BSD.

                                     

                                    There is not a tool yet invented that is all things to all people, unless you include the Swiss Army Knife.

                                    • 17. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                                      Jim_Simon Level 8

                                      Idiot proofing is not the way to get a robust program to work. Training users is the way to get a program to work for each user.

                                       

                                      Well said.

                                      • 18. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                                        jamesp2 Level 1

                                        I'm also an idiot, because I absolutely don't want changes occurring in regions of the T-L which are not in view on the screen.  And I can conceive of no instances where edits taking place off-screen are desirable, short of some sort of universal find/replace action.

                                         

                                        I'd also suggest that "undo" and "redo" be subject to some sort of forced scrutiny or automatic screen update, when occurring in regions not visible to the user.  Which, I guess, makes me triply idiotic.  OTOH, I would absolutely not recommend that Adobe take MS Word as a model.

                                        • 19. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                                          Steven L. Gotz Level 5

                                          There is not a tool yet invented that is all things to all people, unless you include the Swiss Army Knife.

                                          A Swiss Army Knife is a good example of what we do NOT want Premiere Pro to be. Not those of us who have used it for years, anyway.

                                           

                                          Have you noticed how big and bulky the full featured Swiss Army Knife really is? The one with everything? It can be carried in special pants, perhaps, but not easily in a pair of jeans. Oh, you could get a belt pouch for it, but it would be heavy and annoying and you would seldom strap it on unless you know for sure you were going to use the less often used features. Like a pharmaceutical spatula.

                                           

                                          So, what do you do? You buy a mid sized knife that suits you better and you leave the big, fat, heavy knife in a drawer, or at the bottom of your toolbox.

                                           

                                          I don't need a pharmaceutical spatula on my knife. I can pack a pharmaceutical spatula when I need it.

                                           

                                          https://www.swissarmy.com/us/product/Swiss-Army-Knives/Category/Do-It-Yourself/Swisschamp- XLT/53504

                                          • 21. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                                            jamesp2 Level 1

                                            Introducing your own metaphor (Swiss-army knife) and then dismissing that characterization as undesirable is not, one might suggest, a particularly fruitful approach.

                                             

                                            As with many suggestions made here, the same folks pile on, time after time, to explain why that feature is not really desirable, why we already have the best possible product and why anyone who thinks otherwise is an amateur or an idiot or had best retreat to FCP.

                                             

                                            This must be a source of satisfaction, but it doesn't always make for pleasant reading.

                                            • 22. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                                              13macfil

                                              I totally agree, as it has happened to me twice (erasing clips out if my view with no chance of getting them back - I had to open a autosaved project-file and had to copy and paste them).

                                              Let me know, when this happens, Adobe, like suggested from Pierre!

                                              • 23. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                                                Steven L. Gotz Level 5

                                                I still can't imagine having clips selected that you can't see. How did you select them in the first place? And why? And why are they still selected if you don't want them acted upon?

                                                 

                                                Nobody has answered that question in a way that makes any sense to me..

                                                • 24. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                                                  Steven L. Gotz Level 5

                                                  Introducing your own metaphor (Swiss-army knife) and then dismissing that characterization as undesirable is not, one might suggest, a particularly fruitful approach.

                                                  I didn't introduce it. Drystonewall did.

                                                  • 25. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                                                    jamesp2 Level 1

                                                    Steven L. Gotz wrote:

                                                     

                                                    I still can't imagine having clips selected that you can't see. How did you select them in the first place? And why? And why are they still selected if you don't want them acted upon?

                                                     

                                                    Nobody has answered that question in a way that makes any sense to me..

                                                    Clips get selected in the course of editing for all sorts of reasons -- double clicked to load into the viewer, clicked to get properties, clicked to open effects in viewer, etc..  And unless actively de-selected, they remain selected, on screen or off.

                                                    • 26. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                                                      Steven L. Gotz Level 5

                                                      Clips get selected in the course of editing for all sorts of reasons -- double clicked to load into the viewer, clicked to get properties, clicked to open effects in viewer, etc..  And unless actively de-selected, they remain selected, on screen or off.

                                                      OK, but maybe it is just my workflow, and I have always done it this way so it is "normal" to me, but before I apply effects I make sure to click on the appropriate clip in the sequence first.

                                                       

                                                      Doesn't eveyone? And if not, why not?

                                                       

                                                      It is like talking to people in a crowded room. First I call their name to get their attention, then I say what I need to say. If I don't call their name first then everyone would assume I was either talking to them or talking to everyone. Which I might want to do. Sometimes. But that would be my choice.

                                                      • 27. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                                                        13macfil Level 1

                                                        In my case it had been all clips on v1 and a1&2 in between in and out (all clips on v2 and higher were still there!), and I have no idea how it happened. Sure enough it had been a user forced malfunction, but nevertheless: it happened without me noticing it until I widened my timeline view. Shocking, I can tell you as it had been 25 minutes of my film! And no way of undoing, as it happened whenever!

                                                        • 28. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                                                          SpareWheel Level 2

                                                          Re your post 19.

                                                           

                                                          Yes I did, and you totally misused the metaphor and clearly misunderstood the point being made in my post. But that's not unusual here...

                                                           

                                                          Many thanks.

                                                          • 29. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                                                            13macfil Level 1

                                                            And now - I'm trying to get back to the spirit if the initiator of this thread: how can I avoid to delete clips the way I have deleted mine? What did I do wrong?

                                                            • 30. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                                                              shooternz Level 6

                                                              And I can conceive of no instances where edits taking place off-screen are desirable, short of some sort of universal find/replace action

                                                               

                                                              O.K. .

                                                               

                                                              An editor is always considering what impact any edit and action has on the rest of the Program.eg. time, audio synch, layering, fx, locked clips,grouped clips, nests etc  The timeline is only a "holder" of the Program as a sequence. 

                                                               

                                                              So ...here are a few to consider if this "idea" was to be imlemented.

                                                               

                                                              1. How about ripple deleting a section that extends outside the viewed Timeline?

                                                               

                                                              The usual objective would be to bring the clips outside the viewed Timeline back to the edit point. (in the viewed area)

                                                               

                                                              2. How about inserting clips into the viewed Timeline and the purpose would be that all clips out side the viewed area ripple out accordingly.

                                                               

                                                              Both the above are "editing" ther program outside the viewed area.

                                                               

                                                              3. How about Audio or video tracks above and below the viewed area? eg 10 Video tracks and 12 Audio tracks where only 5 tracks of each are in viewable area.

                                                               

                                                              4. How about nests from other sequences. (One is editing in a sequence that affects the edits in an entirely different timeline.)

                                                               

                                                              It would be madness to consider that edits can only happen in the viewed area. Those that work long form would be zooming from 60 minute timeline views to 10 second views constantly.

                                                               

                                                              BTW - "idiot proof" is not an insult.  Those that take offense need to consider where they fit in the definition.

                                                               

                                                              In modern English usage, the informal term idiot proof or fool proof describes designs which inherently or by use of defensive design principles cannot be misused. The implication is that the design is usable even by someone of low intelligence who would not use it properly. ...

                                                              • 31. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                                                                shooternz Level 6

                                                                And now - I'm trying to get back to the spirit if the initiator of this thread: how can I avoid to delete clips the way I have deleted mine? What did I do wrong?

                                                                 

                                                                Simple Operator Error ...and anyone can make one and everyone has done so!

                                                                 

                                                                You are not unique.

                                                                 

                                                                One can only say that you need to pay more attention to the task.

                                                                 

                                                                Delete Key means just what it says.

                                                                 

                                                                What did you think you were doing when you pushed it? 

                                                                 

                                                                Tip - Having a decent Back Up procedure "Save Copy As" is a lifesaver.

                                                                • 32. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                                                                  13macfil Level 1

                                                                  "What did you think you were doing when you pushed it?"

                                                                   

                                                                  No, it's not that easy. If I'd marked a clip and want to delete it, and I do and delete at the same time everything that lies between a whenever set In and Out, we have a problem that is not only my fault as a user of this app. It sucks.

                                                                  • 33. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                                                                    shooternz Level 6

                                                                    I don t really understand what you just said.

                                                                     

                                                                    Some punctuation would help.

                                                                     

                                                                    Describe what you did in the timeline.

                                                                    • 34. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                                                                      Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                                      If I'd marked a clip and want to delete it, and I do and delete at the same time everything that lies between a whenever set In and Out

                                                                       

                                                                      But...you just set the range to be affected, so there is no 'hidden' selection here, unless you inadvertently held down the Shift key, which brings us back to operator error, and you cannot make a program as complex as PP entirely free of such possibilities, not if you want to be able to do the things we need to do.

                                                                       

                                                                      The software should do what we tell it to do.  If it prevents us from 'making a mistake', then it isn't doing what we tell it to, and that's far more frustrating for far more editors than the occasional goof by an editor who isn't paying attention.

                                                                      • 35. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                                                                        jamesp2 Level 1

                                                                        shooternz wrote:

                                                                         

                                                                        O.K. .

                                                                         

                                                                         

                                                                        So ...here are a few to consider if this "idea" was to be imlemented.

                                                                         

                                                                        1. How about ripple deleting a section that extends outside the viewed Timeline?

                                                                         

                                                                        The usual objective would be to bring the clips outside the viewed Timeline back to the edit point. (in the viewed area)

                                                                         

                                                                        2. How about inserting clips into the viewed Timeline and the purpose would be that all clips out side the viewed area ripple out accordingly.

                                                                         

                                                                        Both the above are "editing" ther program outside the viewed area.

                                                                         

                                                                        3. How about Audio or video tracks above and below the viewed area? eg 10 Video tracks and 12 Audio tracks where only 5 tracks of each are in viewable area.

                                                                         

                                                                        4. How about nests from other sequences. (One is editing in a sequence that affects the edits in an entirely different timeline.)

                                                                         

                                                                        It would be madness to consider that edits can only happen in the viewed area. Those that work long form would be zooming from 60 minute timeline views to 10 second views constantly.

                                                                         

                                                                        BTW - "idiot proof" is not an insult.  Those that take offense need to consider where they fit in the definition.

                                                                         

                                                                        In modern English usage, the informal term idiot proof or fool proof describes designs which inherently or by use of defensive design principles cannot be misused. The implication is that the design is usable even by someone of low intelligence who would not use it properly. ...

                                                                         

                                                                        Nobody's objecting to edits which are only partially visible, which are obviously intentional.  That was never the issue.  The OP was referring to unintentional edits performed because the selected clip(s) or transition(s) were entirely off-screen, not contiguous with current material and outside the area of current interest.  These unseen edits are particularly crucial (in my view) when performing "undo" actions.

                                                                         

                                                                        As for for "not" calling people idiots, I would refer you to your own post at #12.  I'm not personally offended -- this language is stock and trade of internet posts, where everybody's a fearless cowboy.  I just find it tiresome.

                                                                        • 36. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                                                                          Jim_Simon Level 8

                                                                          The OP was referring to unintentional edits

                                                                           

                                                                          But here's the thing, there are no 'unintentional' edits.  PP doesn't do anything on it's own, it relies on user input to perform the operations.  So the edit was indeed intentional.  Pierre hit or clicked that button which executed the operation.  That is the desired behavior here, at all times.

                                                                           

                                                                          That he wasn't paying attention to which clips the operation was performed on shouldn't be an issue for Adobe to resolve.

                                                                          • 37. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                                                                            jamesp2 Level 1

                                                                            Jim Simon wrote:

                                                                             

                                                                            But here's the thing, there are no 'unintentional' edits.  PP doesn't do anything on it's own, it relies on user input to perform the operations.  So the edit was indeed intentional.

                                                                             

                                                                             

                                                                            If you really want to be that literal-minded, PP does lots of things on its own, without explanation and without consulting the user -- countless anomalies and bugs, for example.

                                                                             

                                                                            I'm not persuaded that implementing the OP's suggestion, or some form of it under some conditions, would ruin your editing experience, force you to adopt FCP or rob you of your livelihood, but it's clear further discussion of this matter here is a waste of time.

                                                                            • 38. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                                                                              shooternz Level 6

                                                                              but it's clear further discussion of this matter here is a waste of time.

                                                                               

                                                                              I will tell you exactly why it is a waste of time.

                                                                               

                                                                              "Its not needed".

                                                                               

                                                                              I have been in this Forum since 2002 and after all that time.. and all those  posts, threads and issues....I have never seen anyone else have any issue with managing the edit in the timeline because of clips out of view that happen to be selected. 

                                                                               

                                                                              Now we have  3 people needing a new "idiot proof" behaviour that thousands of editors have never asked for or needed.

                                                                               

                                                                              The OP has a fertile, enquiring  and inventive mind ...and frequently posts FRs for discussion that generally involve issues specific to very few...mostly himself.  The solutions always would involve a far more complex Premiere. IMHO

                                                                               

                                                                              It is good to have these discussions and do note...the OP specifically asked for participation. He debates his own arguments well.

                                                                               

                                                                              A Forum is a place for discussion and it can go anywhere a conversation can ( with in moderation of course.)

                                                                               

                                                                              (BTW: CTRL-Shift-A is your friend = Deselect All)  This is an action I do all the time because of my particular edit style. I use it mostly  to clear the Edit Modes (Points) off the end of the Clips.

                                                                              • 39. Re: If Adobe competed against Microsoft Word... (important, please read and participate!)
                                                                                PierreLouisBeranek Level 1

                                                                                Thank you for bringing a voice of reason jamesp2.  I agree with you that trying to reason with unreasonable people here is a waste of time.  It's all too clear that some posters respond before even bothering to understand the topic at hand.  I've tried explaining how my FR would work several times.  I noticed you tried as well.  However it's impossible to explain something to someone who refuses to understand.

                                                                                 

                                                                                Perhaps this private message I received from Jim Simon expresses it best: "I'm just bursting with closed-minded, irrelevant comments.  I have to post them somewhere or I'll explode!!!"

                                                                                 

                                                                                [I'm going to leave the quote in place because I think the sarcasm is pretty clear.  But in the future, you need to get permission before posting the contents of a private message in the public forums.  Not doing so is a breach of good faith and defeats the entire purpose of the Private Message system.]

                                                                                 

                                                                                Message edited by Jim Simon

                                                                                 

                                                                                I was hoping that these forums would be a welcoming place to constructively discuss FR ideas.  Shooternz, calling any editor who's ever made a mistake an 'idiot', and then claiming he's never said such a thing a few posts later, and Jim, with his need to argue for argument's sake, unfortunately prove otherwise. Unfortunately, forum moderation seems to be all but absent 

                                                                                 

                                                                                Thankfully we can send Adobe our FRs in private.  I'm confident that Adobe Programmers have the best interests of all editors in mind, and therefore I am confident that they will see the great value in this FR and implement it as best their limited resources allow.

                                                                                 

                                                                                I'm now considering this thread closed and won't bother entertaining the need of certain forum members to argue any longer.

                                                                                Hopefully, with the help of Adobe moderation, these forums can become a positive place for users to share their FR ideas with others.

                                                                                 


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