15 Replies Latest reply on Oct 31, 2013 2:10 PM by JimHess

    How do I convert to DNG for CS3 without demosaicing?

    TomH2 Level 1

      Recently purchased the Sigma 60mm 2.8 lens for my Sony NEX-6, which shoots ARW raw files. When converting to DNG (using the newest 8.2.0.94 version), the files increase in size from ~15MB to ~60MB. This appears to be because I have the compatibility settings set to Camera Raw 4.6 compatibility, and the converter believes this means it has to demosaic the image. This is done with no override and no warning that information is going to be discarded, despite the fact that I shoot raw files because I want raw data. How can I produce DNG files compatible with Photoshop CS3 and Camera Raw 4.6, without discarding data and producing huge files?

       

      This is doubly frustrating since manual lenses convert fine. I do not care about any lens correction information in the original ARW files, as only very minor corrections are needed anyway. Losing this information to produce good DNG files is perfectly acceptable to me.

       

      Similar threads show that newer versions of DNG can be converted to without the demasaicing being applied, but this is not helpful to me. See http://forums.adobe.com/message/4312768, http://forums.adobe.com/message/3333887.

       

      I have no plans to upgrade photoshop (especially the CC versions), so need something that works with CS3.

        • 1. Re: How do I convert to DNG for CS3 without demosaicing?
          JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          As I understand it, by the time the image has been opened in Photoshop it is no longer raw image data, it has been demosaiced. Photoshop, even the latest version, cannot edit raw image data. That is why Camera Raw is needed. Are you embedding the original raw file in the DNG?

          • 2. Re: How do I convert to DNG for CS3 without demosaicing?
            TomH2 Level 1

            All I want to do is convert from ARW files to DNG files without having DNG Converter demosaic the files. This all happens before Camera Raw (or Photoshop for that matter) even touches it. For some reason DNG Converter believes that if lens lens correction information is available, it must demosaic it at any cost BEFORE saving the DNG file.

             

            I am not embedding the original in the DNG, since one of the reasons for conversion is the smaller files. The other is that Camera Raw 4.6 cannot open NEX-6 files natively, and the suggested workaround is to convert its raws to DNGs which leads to the earlier problems.

            • 3. Re: How do I convert to DNG for CS3 without demosaicing?
              JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              It seems that you are beyond my understanding. That demosaic process is part of what Camera Raw does. And it does it as a file is opened. So I'm not sure how you're going to accomplish your goal. Hopefully someone else will have an answer to your dilemma.

              • 4. Re: How do I convert to DNG for CS3 without demosaicing?
                TomH2 Level 1

                Thanks for trying. You are right that Camera Raw should be performing the demosaicing. However, in this case it is actually being done by DNG Converter, which is a separate program, leading to large files that no longer contain raw data that can be used by Camera Raw 4.6.

                • 5. Re: How do I convert to DNG for CS3 without demosaicing?
                  sandy_mc Level 3

                  You're correct that the issue is related to lens corrections. DNG Converter "knows" that NEX-6's require lens corrections, but also "knows" that CS3 doesn't understand the lens correction codes in DNG 1.3. So it's helpfully creating a demosaiced file with the lens corrections baked in.

                   

                  Have you tried just setting the DNG Converter compatibility settings to something later? DNG converter will then leave the file undemosaiced, and CS3 should just ignore the lens correction codes it doesn't understand.

                  • 6. Re: How do I convert to DNG for CS3 without demosaicing?
                    TomH2 Level 1

                    Hi Sandy_mc. Setting compatibility to Camera Raw 5.4 does produce a smaller DNG file that is presumably not demosaiced, but unfortunately it is unreadable by Camera Raw 4.6 in CS3.

                     

                    As I said earlier I don't care about the lens corrections, which are minimal if they're even present. All I want is for DNG Converter to copy the original undemosaiced data to the new file untouched.

                    • 7. Re: How do I convert to DNG for CS3 without demosaicing?
                      sandy_mc Level 3

                      Ok, that's a problem. Unfortunately, the only solution I can think of then would involve manually modifying the DNG file, e.g., via EXIFTool, which a is a bit extreme.

                      • 8. Re: How do I convert to DNG for CS3 without demosaicing?
                        TomH2 Level 1

                        As I understand it, buying a new version of photoshop is needed to obtain a newer version of camera raw, correct?

                         

                        Are there any other tools like DNG Converter that are able to convert from nex-6 ARW files to DNG?

                         

                        Any idea who to contact about making a change to DNG Converter that would allow ignoring of the lens corrections? I think I could argue successfully that increasing file sizes by a factor of 4 (without warning) for files where it's not needed is unnecessary.

                        • 9. Re: How do I convert to DNG for CS3 without demosaicing?
                          JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          Lightroom can be used as your raw converter. Then Photoshop CS3 would be designated as your external editor. You would do all of your editing on your raw images using Lightroom. Then Lightroom would render a TIF or PSD file (depending on your preferences) and send that image to Photoshop. The file could be sent as a 16-bit file. I use Photoshop CS6 now, but I have used CS3 in the past. It integrates very well with Lightroom. Lightroom does not use the Camera Raw plug-in. All of that technology is part of the Lightroom program.

                          • 10. Re: How do I convert to DNG for CS3 without demosaicing?
                            TomH2 Level 1

                            Thanks for the info Jim. It looks like Lightroom has sort-of a standalone version of Camera Raw, which I assume is based on the same codebase? Can lightroom be used similarly to Bridge + Camera Raw, in that it works as a browser/raw processor without needing a catalog or requiring images to be imported into its internal organizational system?

                            • 11. Re: How do I convert to DNG for CS3 without demosaicing?
                              JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              NO! The central controlling engine of Lightroom is a database that is presented in the form of a catalog. In order to see images in Lightroom they must be imported. That does not move the images or encumber the images in any way. It simply is a process of pointing Lightroom to where the images are located. I realize that you're going to probably say that such a process is unacceptable. Frankly, I didn't like it at first. It seemed cumbersome. But now, having used Lightroom since early in version 2, it makes perfect sense. I'm able to maintain a master set of my images downloaded from my camera. And I simply export JPEG copies for other purposes and dispose of them after I have used them. If you don't want to deal with a catalog then you don't want Lightroom. But it's not a rational excuse to stay away from it. It really does make sense and simplifies things if you just take the time to understand it and modify your workflow to accommodate it. But, of course, the choice is yours.

                              • 12. Re: How do I convert to DNG for CS3 without demosaicing?
                                TomH2 Level 1

                                What would be the recommended way to contact support about the behavior of DNG Converter then? Their contact page asks me to select a product before continuing, and it is not listed.

                                 

                                Is it possible to open a DNG or raw file in Camera Raw 5.4+ that has lens correction information, but not apply it?

                                 

                                Regarding lightroom: I can see how it would work well for many people's workflows, and it would be convenient for some of mine, but definitely not for a lot of it. Lightroom's workflow is based around adjusting sets of images with the intention of producing one output image for each input raw image, and making all adjustments within lightroom. I work with sets of images to produce stitched panoramas and focus-stacked images (sometimes combined), and much of the workflow must be done with outside software. When stitching tiffs produced from the raw files by Camera Raw, any distortions, for example, will be calibrated out during the stitching process. Allowing the raw developer to apply lens corrections earlier in the process not only wastes time, but also degrades the images. I've also had trouble in the past with other programs like Bridge crashing when trying to tag or preview images that are > 32000 pixels wide, so Lightroom probably wouldn't handle these any better.

                                • 13. Re: How do I convert to DNG for CS3 without demosaicing?
                                  JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  I don't agree at all with your assessment of Lightroom's suitability in your case. I use Lightroom in combination with Photoshop all the time. I use Photoshop to stitch panoramas after doing all the initial work in Lightroom. It's your unfamiliarity with the program that's telling you that it wouldn't work for you when in reality it will if you just take the time to learn how it works. If you don't want to do that then go ahead and find another way. But trying to convince me that your workflow is so unique that Lightroom would never work is a waste of time. It WILL work. You just have to learn how to work with it. It isn't that difficult but it is a little different. That's my assessment. I know you aren't going to like this response. So I won't waste anymore of your time. Good luck.

                                  • 14. Re: How do I convert to DNG for CS3 without demosaicing?
                                    TomH2 Level 1

                                    Thanks for the idea anyway Jim. The point I was trying to make is that I shouldn't have to change my entire workflow and buy Lightroom just because DNG Converter makes stupid decisions on how to handle compatibility. Switching to Lightroom is a possibility that would solve my problem, but unless there are other obvious incentives for doing so, and there might be some that just aren't obvious to me, that's a decent expense just to work-around what might count as a bug.

                                     

                                    So my original question still stands.

                                    • 15. Re: How do I convert to DNG for CS3 without demosaicing?
                                      JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      Okay, so I lied. I'm going to answer one more time. In my opinion, it isn't necessary to change your "entire workflow". Take the example of a panorama image. As in ACR, I make adjustments to the raw images using Lightroom. Of course, I have imported those images so I'm able to see that folder of images in my Lightroom library. Lightroom has an adjustment where I can highlight all images and choose to "match total exposure". I have found that using that really simplifies the merging to panorama process.

                                       

                                      When I have done all that I need to do in Lightroom, I highlight all the images and choose the option to merge to panorama. Photoshop opens, the images that I've highlighted transfer to Photoshop and the panorama dialogue appears listing those images. I set my options and let Photoshop build the panorama.

                                       

                                      When I'm through with Photoshop I save the panorama image and return to Lightroom. The panorama is there automatically added to the catalog. I can take that image back to Photoshop if needed. And I can export images in different formats for different purposes. But I only have the master images and the one panorama that I have to maintain. If changes are decided upon in the future I only have the one image to worry about.

                                       

                                      The postprocessing in Lightroom is much more elegant (in my opinion) than ACR. You know, you can download Lightroom and try it for 30 days and see what you think. I still believe you are anticipating much more change than is really necessary. So my original answer still stands.