22 Replies Latest reply on Oct 31, 2013 3:22 PM by shooternz

    How do you change the frame marker on the timeline

    4nufpq94u

      How do you change the frame marker on the timeline so that when you  put it on a cut you know that you are getting the end of the shot and not the first frame of the other shot? Any help would be appreciated.

        • 1. Re: How do you change the frame marker on the timeline
          shooternz Level 6

          Not sure what you are doing here but the key to making an edit is the Playhead position in the timeline and not the Markers.

           

          Explain a bit more your "issue" ...  but I suggest you do some of the Premiere Starter Video Tutorials

          • 2. Re: How do you change the frame marker on the timeline
            4nufpq94u Level 1

            Thanks for the reply. I'll further elaborate. The playhead marks the frame at the 1st perf not the 4th perf on the mark out. I would like to know how to mark the frame at the 4th perf, if that is possible, so that when I make a cut at the end of the shot I am not getting the 1st frame of the incoming shot. If I used incorrect terminology, forgive me.

            • 3. Re: How do you change the frame marker on the timeline
              Jim_Simon Level 8

              I admit, I'm still confused.  It does help to use the proper terminology here.

               

              For starters, Premiere Pro doesn't have 'Frame' Markers, it has Sequence Markers, Clip Markers, and Chapter Markers, and I'm unsure which you are using, where you are using them (bin, Source Monitor, sequence), and for what purpose.  Or...do you really mean In and Out points and not 'markers' at all?

               

              Secondly, there are no 'perfs' in video, only in film.  Video has 'frames' (sometimes divided in half, called fields, but that's another matter and likely not relevant here.)

               

              A more precise answer might be given if you were to clarify, but for some general info, the Playhead (or CTI - Current Time Indicator) always get's placed at the head of the frame you're looking at, which means the frame to the immediate right of the Playhead is the one you see.

              • 4. Re: How do you change the frame marker on the timeline
                shooternz Level 6

                You cut in and out on the frame you can see ( as per the play head in the Program Monitor).

                 

                Dont over think this one but ...

                 

                The Frame you see will be the first frame on an in point and the last frame on the out point.

                 

                Its just Magic!

                • 5. Re: How do you change the frame marker on the timeline
                  4nufpq94u Level 1

                  If you zoom in on the timeline you will notice that the playhead marks the frame at what would be the first perf when it marks an in point. When I place the playhead at the end of the shot on the cut to mark an out point to extract or lift, I am getting the first frame of the incoming shot. I am then forced to move the playhead back one frame so that I don't cut off the first frame of the incoming shot. Is there anyway to change the way it marks an out point?

                  • 6. Re: How do you change the frame marker on the timeline
                    shooternz Level 6

                    You are seriously over thinking this.(but I know wereyou are coming from)

                     

                    Premiere knows the difference when you place an IN Point  or when you place an OUT Point  "I" or "O"

                     

                    It will do exactly what IN and OUT means.  

                     

                    For example..it is impossible to put 2 INS or 2 OUT points s in the same clip or sequence.  Try it.

                     

                    IN your terms... In means1st Perf. Out means 4th Perf.

                     

                    What where you  BTW..a neg matcher? 

                    • 7. Re: How do you change the frame marker on the timeline
                      4nufpq94u Level 1

                      I wouldn't consider this a problem if I weren't concerned with sync or sound department or VFX or change notes or music or director or producer or everything and everyone else down the line that demands every frame be accounted for, but I am.

                       

                      I'll have to disagree with you on whether or not Premiere knows an in and out point. It knows an in point...

                       

                      To answer your question: The first 15+ years a 1st assistant film editor. The last few years, an editor.

                       

                      I appreciate everyone helps, thank you. I think Adobe will be getting a letter from me.

                      • 8. Re: How do you change the frame marker on the timeline
                        Jim_Simon Level 8

                        Is there anyway to change the way it marks an out point?

                         

                        No.  The Out point get's marked where the Playhead is, and that always get's placed at the head of the frame.  You will have to step back a frame, no way around that when moving to the edit point.

                         

                        However, you can mark a clip easier by selecting it and hitting the / key.  This will set the In and Out points for that clip simultaneously.

                        • 9. Re: How do you change the frame marker on the timeline
                          4nufpq94u Level 1

                          Thanks for that tip. I appreciate your help.

                          • 10. Re: How do you change the frame marker on the timeline
                            shooternz Level 6

                            You might very well disagree but of course it knows both an In or an Out Point.

                             

                            Its demonstrable and easy to test.

                             

                            Try it by placing IN and Outs on a Clip and then Extracting or Lifting it. 

                             

                            Got any orphan frames?

                             

                            How come this has worked for everyone else?  It would be totally un workable any other way.

                             

                            Did you try setting two INs or OUTs? Its not possible.

                             

                            Love to see your letter BTW.

                            • 11. Re: How do you change the frame marker on the timeline
                              4nufpq94u Level 1

                              I did and the first frame of my incoming shot was taken with it.

                              • 12. Re: How do you change the frame marker on the timeline
                                shooternz Level 6

                                I will do a test.

                                 

                                What is your source footage and in what sequence setting?

                                • 13. Re: How do you change the frame marker on the timeline
                                  shooternz Level 6

                                  Just did Test and used Universal Countdown Leader for precision.

                                   

                                  set an In Point on first frame 3 and an Out point on last frame of 3.

                                   

                                  Lifted  to create a gap.

                                   

                                  Incoming Frame is 2.  (and there is only a single frame of 2 on a leader)

                                   

                                  As expected

                                   

                                  Reiterating.

                                   

                                  One sets the INs an OUTs on the Frame one can see displayed in the Monitor.  Logical of course.

                                  • 14. Re: How do you change the frame marker on the timeline
                                    4nufpq94u Level 1

                                    Just create a sequence and zoom in on the playline until it shows frames then look at the playhead. On a mark out it should be on the right side of the frame and it isn't, therefore it cuts off the first frame of the incoming shot. You can use any footage in any setting and it will cut of the first frame of the incoming shot.

                                    • 15. Re: How do you change the frame marker on the timeline
                                      4nufpq94u Level 1

                                      Why don't you set up three shots in a row and make sure the third shot starts exactly where the number two is. After you have done that, go back and extract the middle shot with an in and out mark and see where your number 2 is... gone. It's not magic, it's a bad playhead design.

                                      • 16. Re: How do you change the frame marker on the timeline
                                        shooternz Level 6

                                        Just refferring to the Countdown Leader exercise.

                                         

                                        As an Editor I expect the edit to be made on the frames I can see.  (Forget about Playback head representation as it shows in the timeline for now).

                                         

                                        So I want to remove an  entire second from the Countdown Leader Clip and create a gap of exactly one second..

                                         

                                        I position the playhead at the first frame of Number 3. Set IN Point

                                         

                                        I position the Playhead at the last Number 3 and set the Out Point.

                                         

                                        LIFT... and it creates a Gap. (The Info Panel tells me the gap is exactly 1 second long).

                                         

                                        Page Page down takes me to next edit point which is the Number 2 Frame.

                                         

                                        Are you saying that does not work that way for you or are you saying you would prefer a different behaviour?

                                         

                                        Any one else want to chime in here?

                                        • 17. Re: How do you change the frame marker on the timeline
                                          4nufpq94u Level 1

                                          I'm not looking for an argument. Just an answer. Jim Simon answered it.

                                           

                                          No.  The Out point get's marked where the Playhead is, and that always get's placed at the head of the frame.  You will have to step back a frame, no way around that when moving to the edit point.

                                           

                                           

                                          To answer your BTW, here's the letter I just sent to Adobe:

                                           

                                          There is one bug I want to point out and the feature I would like to see correct it. The bug: The playhead on the timeline marks the “in point frame” at what would be the first perf in film. In marks the “out point frame” also at what would be the first perf in film instead of the fourth perf. If you fail to move the playhead back one frame after you mark your out point and you make an extract or lift, you will lose one frame on the head of the incoming shot thereby knocking everything after it out of sync when you are working with individual tracks, or one frame across all sync-locked tracks: losing one frame in a sequence can make a big difference, one frame 27 times can wreck havoc, in sound it is a complete nightmare. For those of us who use this for film, this is a problem. Many film people have adjusted to moving the playhead back one frame but that is an inconvenience created by a necessity. The feature to fix it: A playhead option setting that would allow you to place the playhead at the end of the fourth perf on the out mark thereby only including your out frame and not the first incoming frame when you make lifts or extractions or cuts.

                                           

                                          What they do is up to them.

                                          • 18. Re: How do you change the frame marker on the timeline
                                            shooternz Level 6

                                            Definitely not arguing..its an interesting take on how this works and the first time someone has ever mentioned its an issue AFAIK.

                                             

                                            I have never heard of anyone stepping back a frame to make sure the edit point is correct when using IN and OUT markers.  THat would make an absolute mockery of using any shortcut keys to edit efficiently/

                                             

                                            Sorry guys,

                                             

                                            Maybe I just dont understand this issue as it has been presented..

                                             

                                            ... or why Jim says...

                                             

                                            No.  The Out point get's marked where the Playhead is, and that always get's placed at the head of the frame.  You will have to step back a frame, no way around that when moving to the edit point.

                                             

                                            Yes ..the Out Point does get applied to the cuurent frame...thats totally logical...but the OUT Edit Point is at the tail of the frame  so as that frame is  is included in the IN to OUT region.

                                             

                                            Please advise what you both see if you do as per my Post #16.

                                             

                                            FWIW - 98% of my work is TVCs and every TVC is required to be frame accurate for broadcast. I am very conscious of ensuring it is but never have I had to do any "frame manipulations" in the sequence  to do so.  In and Out does exactly what I expect..frame to frame accurately everytime.

                                            • 19. Re: How do you change the frame marker on the timeline
                                              Kevin-Monahan Adobe Employee

                                              4nufpq94u wrote:

                                               

                                              The bug: The playhead on the timeline marks the “in point frame” at what would be the first perf in film. In marks the “out point frame” also at what would be the first perf in film instead of the fourth perf.

                                               

                                              I 4nufpq94u,

                                              It's not considered a bug, it's "as designed." In every other NLE in the market I've ever used, the playhead has the same behavior as you see in Premiere Pro. The Avid Media Composer, however, does have a modifier key you can press when marking an Out point to override that behavior and puts it on the beginning of the frame. I rather like this option, rather than making a global change to the app.

                                               

                                              I think most people will not understand when you use film editing terminolgy, like perf. I'd say 99.9% of us never handled film. I use the terms "the beginning of the frame" or "the end of the frame" when describing playhead position this behavior, but I do think your comparison is interesting.

                                               

                                              The other situation you have to consider is when you are marking In and Out points by entering the amount of frames in the Timeline. If you want to mark a 1:00 duration, you mark In, then type +29 (if in NTSC), then press Out.

                                               

                                              If this behavior changed, it would throw me off.

                                               

                                              4nufpq94u wrote:

                                               

                                              If you fail to move the playhead back one frame after you mark your out point and you make an extract or lift, you will lose one frame on the head of the incoming shot thereby knocking everything after it out of sync.

                                               

                                              Prior to doing a lift or extract, it is vital to use the Mark Clip or Mark Selection function first. Using the playhead to mark Out points, while seemingly intuitive, has the inherent problem you describe. I do understand the issue, as many editors probably make this mistake for years without even realizing it because they were not trained to avoid it.

                                               

                                              As a former instructor, I make sure every student knows the dangers of marking Out with the playhead, or that if you mark a duration, to make it one frame less than the duration you actually need.

                                               

                                              4nufpq94u wrote:

                                               

                                              Many film people have adjusted to moving the playhead back one frame but that is an inconvenience created by a necessity. The feature to fix it: A playhead option setting that would allow you to place the playhead at the end of the fourth perf on the out mark thereby only including your out frame and not the first incoming frame when you make lifts or extractions or cuts.

                                               

                                              What they do is up to them.

                                               

                                              I agree with you. A modifier similar to what they do in Media Composer is the best way to go about this. However, how would you go about changing marking durations without subtracting a frame? You do start to see how some changes could get very confusing.

                                               

                                              Thanks,

                                              Kevin

                                              • 20. Re: How do you change the frame marker on the timeline
                                                Kevin-Monahan Adobe Employee

                                                shooternz wrote:

                                                 

                                                Definitely not arguing..its an interesting take on how this works and the first time someone has ever mentioned its an issue AFAIK.

                                                 

                                                I have never heard of anyone stepping back a frame to make sure the edit point is correct when using IN and OUT markers.  THat would make an absolute mockery of using any shortcut keys to edit efficiently/

                                                 

                                                shooter,

                                                Marking In with the Playhead is no problem, it's marking Out that's the problem. If you use the playhead to mark Out without stepping back a frame, you are actually lopping off a frame of the adjacent clip. If you zoom way in to the Timeline, you can see this behavior.

                                                 

                                                Cheers,

                                                Kevin

                                                • 21. Re: How do you change the frame marker on the timeline
                                                  Kevin-Monahan Adobe Employee

                                                  Jim Simon wrote:

                                                   

                                                  However, you can mark a clip easier by selecting it and hitting the / key.  This will set the In and Out points for that clip simultaneously.

                                                   

                                                  Hi Jim,

                                                  You can also use the Marker > Mark Clip function, where you do not need to select the clip. It will function if the Playhead is parked on the clip, and the track is selected. Check it out, "X Marks the Spot!"

                                                   

                                                  Thanks,

                                                  Kevin

                                                  • 22. Re: How do you change the frame marker on the timeline
                                                    shooternz Level 6

                                                    Just for fun..

                                                     

                                                    Kevin

                                                     

                                                    "Film time" has always been interesting and a bit confusing ..but very logical and true to the way time works.

                                                     

                                                    The first viewable frame in a NLE sequence is always indicated as 00:00:00:00

                                                     

                                                    so the last frame in a (25 fps)15 second program is actually 00:00:14:24.  (not 00:00:14:25)

                                                     

                                                    The program is 15 seconds and 375 frames and ...the missing frame is explained by a 0 start point.

                                                     

                                                    This explains why "film people" can  get a little challenged in NLE  because film editors count in absolute frames.

                                                     

                                                    First frame is #1 and last frame (25fps 15 second program)  is #375

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