17 Replies Latest reply on Jan 31, 2016 2:04 PM by Shutterlab

    PP-SP-AE CC (Oct.Rel.) Lumetri Workflow

    ralf4u Level 1

      Hi all,

       

      I was waiting the whole month for the new CC-Release. At least it comes out in the last hours of October :-) But now I have played around and there are still some bugs we know from earlier versions :-/

      The most irritating issue is with Lumetri Engine. Try this: Paste a few clips into PP. Use Direct Link to Speedgrade. Grade the footage and go back to PP. Now every clips has his own Lumetri effect. Thats pretty fine. But then switch with one clip to AE to edit a special effect, save the comp and come back to PP. Now the Lumetri effect is gone. How silly is that?!

      Ok ... you can reload the Lumetri look manually, but this presumes to save every single look in SP. This is not a workflow ... it's a jobcreation. Or do I make something totally wrong?

       

      ralf

        • 1. Re: PP-SP-AE CC (Oct.Rel.) Lumetri Workflow
          Jim_Simon Level 8

          Typically color correction and grading will happen after the edit, including effects, so the normal work flow would be to do your AE work before you send to SG.  So give that a try.  Do things work when sending the linked AE comp over to SG?

          • 2. Re: PP-SP-AE CC (Oct.Rel.) Lumetri Workflow
            R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            JIm,

             

            I haven't used AE yet in my trials with the new release ... but if the above holds true, it would be a huge problem for moi ... you see, I add things like titles/credits last, and in AE ... so in effect, one would need to grade AFTER titles/credits are in place?

             

            That would be ... bizarre ... to say the least? Wouldn't you be changing the colors of your titles and such?

             

            Neil

            • 3. Re: PP-SP-AE CC (Oct.Rel.) Lumetri Workflow
              Dave Merchant MVP & Adobe Community Professional

              Given the Lumetri engine doesn't exist in AE you can't expect the effect to carry across into the comp.

               

              You can open a Pr sequence that contains AE linked comps in Speegrade and they will display the same as any other clip, so you can grade afterwards (which is the intended workflow). If you have AE text layers, lower thirds, etc. that need to be excluded from the grade, then you would create them separately (as a new layer in Premiere Pro) and grade only the underlying footage, that's how it's always been done.

               

              If you want to convert part of a sequence into an AE comp after grading, then you have two options:

               

              1. Apply the Lumetri effect to an adjustment layer and exclude that track when you send to AE. Of course the grade won't show in AE, but it will remain editable through Dynamic Link.
              2. If you want to pass an Sg grade into an AE comp, you have to save it as a .look file then use the "Apply Color LUT" effect in AE rather than the Lumetri effect in Pr.
              • 4. Re: PP-SP-AE CC (Oct.Rel.) Lumetri Workflow
                Jim_Simon Level 8

                Wouldn't you be changing the colors of your titles and such?

                 

                Only if you graded that clip.  Just because it's there in SG doesn't mean you have to adjust anything on it.

                • 5. Re: PP-SP-AE CC (Oct.Rel.) Lumetri Workflow
                  R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  "That's how it's always been done."

                   

                  Love the comment! There's so many ways to do this stuff,  such a statement (which I've made myself I don't know how many times) ends up being part of learning how differently other folks work to the way I work.

                   

                  I've not the experience and depth of work that many have, but ... had adopted the workflow I'd learned by listening to others ... go for "edit-lock" as much as possible in P-Pro, export to grading in Sg, then export to Ae, then either render directly or through AME. Sometimes even do the grading itself within Ae. Within that workflow, in the old software, the stuff you did in Sg was essentially "baked-in" to the footage that was sent to Ae.

                   

                  But Dave ... thank you so much for your clarity of steps in your answer. It's vastly more useful than one often gets in forums. I'll now have to work through a couple test mini-projects to get this through and into reliable/quick production steps ... but thanks to your answer, at least now I know exactly what I need to test and work on. Very grateful!

                   

                  So ... though much of the New Way is incredibly faster/easier/simpler, there's still a couple bits I'm going to have to puzzle through. Always the case, isn't it?

                   

                  Neil

                  • 6. Re: PP-SP-AE CC (Oct.Rel.) Lumetri Workflow
                    R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    Jim,

                     

                    Um ... yea, it would seem a bit weird wouldn't it to have say the title come in on a clip that wasn't graded ... and the next clip of the same "scene" *is* graded? So ... unless one works with only a blank/colored screen for titles and whatnot, one does assume in order to match clips the footage all *will* be graded ...

                     

                    Now, doing the titles on another P-Pro "adjustment layer" that one doesn't touch within Sg ... would that do the trick? It's just kinda weird to me, as titles & graphics & such have always ... to me ... been the last thing done on a project. Now, it seems, the final work needs to be done before the grading, which I'd always done early in the process.

                     

                    Ah well, new tools, new processes.

                     

                    Neil

                    • 7. Re: PP-SP-AE CC (Oct.Rel.) Lumetri Workflow
                      Dave Merchant MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                      The problem (and I freely admit it is a problem) is that Pr, Ae and Sg were never intended to operate together. Adobe made them talk, but a conversation doesn't make a workflow.

                       

                      Speedgrade comes from the digital cinema world. IRIDAS created it solely for use by colorists in motion picture studios, who never go near a lower third in their lives. The unions would ensure that if nothing else - a colorist is not an editor or a titler, period.

                       

                      Premiere (without the Pro) and After Effects went after the prosumer small-shop customer, where the same guy wears all the hats. They targeted people making small TV and video projects, which is why Pr 1.0 had tape export but almost nothing else. To whit, they added loads of stuff those customers wanted (basic titles, a bucket of radical 3d rotation effects, etc.) but 'grading' wasn't even a consideration. You played with contrast and brightness and burned a VHS.

                       

                      As higher-quality work was being done in Premiere, the need to actually do grading and color correction outstripped the tools available, so After Effects was brought into the equation. AE can do pretty much anything, but it was necessarily difficult to learn. Direct Link from AE to Pr got the footage across, but if the guy who knew what a scripted expression meant wasn't the guy who knew how to cut B-rolls to match the pace of the action, it didn't speed anything up. For advanced motion graphics (tracked masks, scripted particles, etc) the one-guy video shop still had to hire "After Effects Dude", and that remains the case today.

                       

                      Big studios still divide up the work along union lines, because they have to. There's no technical reason why someone cutting dailies in Premiere couldn't spend the next week adding closed captions, but that's not how it works. Two names on the credits, two paychecks. You don't cr-- on someone else's salary. They don't care that Speedgrade can't split out the lower thirds from an embedded AE comp, because the colorist and the titler probably sit in different countries, working offline edits. If the colorist had to work on stuff with motion graphics, they would import them into layers in Sg because they'd always be supplied as discrete assets. If AE sat at the end of the pipe (such as when multiple translations are being done on titles) then it would be fed a burned grade, probably as a DPX sequence.

                       

                      The gap as seen by Adobe was for mid-range studios where a couple of people were working on a project but there wasn't a professional colorist. Grading in Pr was very basic, and in AE is like adjusting photos in Photoshop by applying curves; in theory it can do anything, but in practice if I ask the typical Creative Suite user to match two cameras and make the end result "look like Blade Runner", 99% won't have the faintest clue what buttons to push. They want the presets and visual safety of something like Lightroom, where "sepia" is a preset not a hand-tuned combination of tints and split-tones. A bunch of third-party plugins came along to fill that market (Colorista, etc.) but Adobe had nothing.

                       

                      So, Adobe bought Speedgrade and bolted it into the pipeline; but more as a way to get the preset 'looks' within reach of non-expert editor guy, than as a way to let the Academy-Award-winning colorist edit her wedding video. 90% of Speedgrade is beyond 90% of the people who use CC, and that's no insult to them; the only time they'll see the word ARRI is on a movie credit. They want to click on the thumbnail that looks browny-yellow, tweak a couple of the big circle things and if it looks cool, press Save. End of workflow.

                       

                      That's fine for the target prosumer, as they get to make their wedding video all sepia and romantic. If they want to slap on a copyright message they'd use the titler in Premiere, or maybe at a push make something in Photoshop and import it. All that works just fine today, but After Effects doesn't fit that scenario, so Speedgrade doesn't fit After Effects. If you're bringing all the big guns into the workflow, even if you're doing it all yourself, you still have to follow the separation of labor you'd get in a major studio. The concept that everything dynamically links to everything else isn't here, and it's not even a holy grail - just try asking the sound engineer if they want the colorist to adjust their mixes.

                      • 8. Re: PP-SP-AE CC (Oct.Rel.) Lumetri Workflow
                        R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        "The concept that everything dynamically links to everything else isn't here, and it's not even a holy grail - just try asking the sound engineer if they want the colorist to adjust their mixes."

                         

                        Oh, Dave, that line had me laughing but good ...

                         

                        Thank you so much for the explanation how things got to be where they is/was. Which is a bastardization of the old "IzWuz" boards they had on Navy ships, where a spotter would yell the range the last shells landed at, and the range of the actual target, and the fore/aft degrees off, someone else called out the speed of their ship ... someone called out the speed of the target ... someone would call out wind-drift factor ... and some poor dude sat with a multi-wheeled board in his lap, entering each thing as it was yelled in all the noise and confusion of being in the "top" (that big tower thing WAY up above the bridge) with all the guns and noise and smoke from the smoke-stacks, and then called out the correction given mechanically down in one corner into the talking-pipe or headsets to the gunners in the appropriate turrets.

                         

                        With both ships moving juking and jiving to avoid each other's guns, AND the need for a new salvo to go out as quick as the gun-crews could load and the gunner crank a correction ... you can see why the info moving on that board was called the "is-was" info.

                         

                        So ... our cineo era (mixing cinema & video) is also a fast moving ... operation? ... and the software has conflicting starts/directions/user-patterns/capabilities? Probably best to just say ... should have expected it.

                         

                        Your explanation was rather nicely worded, and I could follow easily as to how and why we're where we are. Now ... the one thing that still puzzles me is ... I use LUT's inside Ae all the time. Of course, that's through LUT Buddy ... but although Ae can work with LUT's, it can't see Sg's LUT's or looks.

                         

                        Unless, of course, you go to Effects/Utilities/Apply Color LUT's ... and then choose a look you just created for it in Sg and tell it to apply ... you know how bonkers that sounds, right?

                         

                        Yes, Ae CAN see your grades from Sg, it's got all the tools it needs ... it just doesn't have the little bitty bit to RECOGNIZE that what X said in Sg (and you know the data's passed over) means exactly ... X ... within Ae also. As, soon as you show it X ... it can apply it just fine.

                         

                        Utterly and completely bizarre ... but well, so is gravity. And we deal with it every moment, right?  

                         

                        Neil

                        • 9. Re: PP-SP-AE CC (Oct.Rel.) Lumetri Workflow
                          R Neil Haugen Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          I've now put in a Feature Request for Ae to be brought into the same workflow as P-Pro & Sg ... as Ae can see the grades from Sg, it would be so much faster and easier if it just did so automatically, like P-Pro now does.

                           

                          Neil

                          • 10. Re: PP-SP-AE CC (Oct.Rel.) Lumetri Workflow
                            Jim_Simon Level 8

                            it would seem a bit weird wouldn't it to have say the title come in on a clip that wasn't graded ... and the next clip of the same "scene" *is* graded?

                             

                            It would indeed.  But the title and the clip underneath are not the same clip.  And they show up in SG as two different clips, just like they exist in PP, so it's very easy to apply the CC to the video underneath the title and leave the title alone.

                            • 11. Re: PP-SP-AE CC (Oct.Rel.) Lumetri Workflow
                              needles27 Level 3

                              Here's a way to make it work - although it is far from ideal and strange that you have to do this:

                               

                              You can edit in Premiere, Direct Link over to SG to do the color work - either back over to Pr to keep editing or just save it.  Then, in AE, you can open that Pr sequence using Dynamic link to pull it over.  This way, your grades show up. 

                               

                              But, it's not a clip-by-clip thing - you get the whole sequence.  I wonder why you get the grades if you pull over a whole sequence from Pr using Dynamic link, but if you send over an individual clip from Premiere using Dynamic Link, the SpeedGrade grade does not show up.

                               

                              One more hint that all of the apps can talk to each other, but just not in the best way yet.

                              • 12. Re: PP-SP-AE CC (Oct.Rel.) Lumetri Workflow
                                ralf4u Level 1

                                Next issue: I import some MTS files in PP then go to SG and grade the clips. Fine. But why can't SG import MTS files by itself ?

                                • 13. Re: PP-SP-AE CC (Oct.Rel.) Lumetri Workflow
                                  Dave Merchant MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                  Exactly the same reason that an AE-only effect in a comp will show in Premiere's monitors when it's dynamically-linked into a Pr sequence. The other application is loaded into memory in 'headless' mode, and it handles the rendering.

                                  needles27 wrote:

                                   

                                  I wonder why you get the grades if you pull over a whole sequence from Pr using Dynamic link, but if you send over an individual clip from Premiere using Dynamic Link, the SpeedGrade grade does not show up.

                                  • 14. Re: PP-SP-AE CC (Oct.Rel.) Lumetri Workflow
                                    Basilphoto

                                    Hi All,

                                     

                                    Here is an example of a special case workaround when you want to Finish in AE, but want the Lumetri settings burn't in.

                                    Example: I have to send a TV Show Title Sequence, edited in Premiere, to a VFX Aritist as an AE Comp Project.    But I want the Lumetri Fx Burned into the Trimmed clips.      I realized that when you "render & replace" a clip in a PP timeline it does not burn in the Lumetri Fx.

                                    So, here is my workaround, for this sort of case:  (normally the PP-SG RT works fine for my needs)

                                     

                                    1. edit-lock

                                    2. Render & replace the clips with 100frame handles, as ProRes HQ.

                                    3. Open a New project in SG, and import all of the Rendered clips into the timeline.

                                    4. Grade the clips

                                    5. export each clip individually as ProRes 422, with the same names, in a new folder

                                    6. trash the pre-grade files

                                    7. Open PP and re-link all the clips to the new graded clips.

                                    8. Then send whole sequence to AE,  clean it up, and save.

                                    9. Give to VFX artist

                                    9. Finish FX and render out the Final video from AE/AME

                                     

                                    Adobe really needs to give users the option to Burn in Lumetri and other vFX into the "Render & Replace" clips.   As well as add Lumetri engine to AE.   

                                    • 15. Re: PP-SP-AE CC (Oct.Rel.) Lumetri Workflow
                                      sounddrmedia

                                      Yes, this really messed me up as well. I was shooting log on a green screen and needed to grade it first in SG to bring the green out, then tried sending my sequence to AE for chroma work in Keylight since PP's native keyed isn't very efficient. I lost all of my grading from SG and ended up having to key in PP using a lot of masks. It really isn't a very efficient workflow Adobe. Please add the Lumetri engine to AE in a future release, soon.

                                      • 16. Re: PP-SP-AE CC (Oct.Rel.) Lumetri Workflow
                                        shooternz Level 6

                                        Please add the Lumetri engine to AE in a future release, soon

                                        I believe that is intended from an Adobe  response  got some time ago.

                                        • 17. Re: PP-SP-AE CC (Oct.Rel.) Lumetri Workflow
                                          Shutterlab Level 1

                                          I am adding Speedgrade looks to a sequence of shots masked in AE dynamically linked from Pr. If I add the color before going into AE it resets as noted here. If I add the color after exporting from AE, I'm applying the color to an exported movie or linked AE comp that contains multiple shots and titles not apporratie for a single grade.


                                          The only solution I can find for reproducing Speedgrade work in AE is exporting a LUT (NOT look file) and applying it through Lumetri Color (NOT Apply Color LUT, which doesn't produce uniform results and has other glitches) in After Effects. This workflow entails doing the color grading BEFORE going into After Effects to ensure access to the individual clips in Speedgrade. It works, but there are a lot of added steps.

                                           

                                          Has this been addressed in the new 2015.2 updates released Jan 2016?
                                          Is this the only solution to getting Speedgrade looks into AE accurately?