22 Replies Latest reply on Dec 12, 2013 11:20 AM by monstremoi

    708 Captions in MXF OP1a?

    EAdler

      I've updated to the latest Premiere Pro CC version (on Windows 8) and created a project utilizing the 'open source' Sintel trailer.  I created 708 captions for this and placed them on the timeline - they appear properly in Premiere. 

       

      When I export to QuickTime, with embedded captions, and try to play with QuickTime Player, the "Closed Captions" menu selection is greyed out

      When I export to MXF OP1a, with embedded captions, and transfer to a video server, a Tektronix WFM700 shows the presence of 608 captions in a 708 data wrapper but does not display any captions.  Similarly, on another video server, played out to a VTM waveform monitor, captions are not displayed. 

       

      Am I doing something wrong or does Premiere not actually export 708 inside a container yet?

      The project file is available here.

        • 1. Re: 708 Captions in MXF OP1a?
          monstremoi Adobe Employee

          PPRO CC 7.1 does import 608 channels and 708 streams into PPRO from QuickTime MOVs -- it does not support encoding 708 to QuickTime MOV on export. Just encoding 608 to MOV on exporting.

           

          If you see closed caption menu items disabled, double-check -- Preferences-> Media and see if "Include Captions on Import" is checked in PPRO and also in AME.

          1 person found this helpful
          • 2. Re: 708 Captions in MXF OP1a?
            EAdler Level 1

            Thank you, that explains the QuickTime issue.  How about the MXF issue?

             

            "Premiere Pro supports importing and exporting CEA-708 captions. CEA-708 closed caption files can be exported as a Sidecar file with a .mcc or .xml filename format. Or you can embed the CEA-708 captions within the SMPTE 436M ancillary data track in MXF OP1a files."

             

             

            Note: I am not using existing caption data.  I generated it myself using the provided tools. 

             

            (Also, it'd help a lot if caption track format could be changed between 608 and 708 so that both could be authored easily.)

            • 3. Re: 708 Captions in MXF OP1a?
              monstremoi Adobe Employee

              Thank you for your reply -- PPRO support 608 and 708 caption importing and encoding to MXF Op1a and DNxHD MXF Op1a, as well as the creation of 608 and 708 captions in PPRO and encoding to MXF. I am not clear if transferring these embedded files to a video server will influence the display of the closed caption data in the MXF embedded files. I'll ask about this. Someone here might be able to comment on the server issue you are seeing. I'll keep asking about this. Thanks again for the reply.

              • 4. Re: 708 Captions in MXF OP1a?
                Charles VW Adobe Employee

                EAdler wrote:

                 

                How about the MXF issue?

                 

                Note: I am not using existing caption data.  I generated it myself using the provided tools. 

                 

                (Also, it'd help a lot if caption track format could be changed between 608 and 708 so that both could be authored easily.)

                 

                To author both and have them both multiplexed into the single CEA-708 stream, then you have to author both a CEA-608 set of clips in PPro as well as a CEA-708 set of clips in PPro. (i.e. have two additional tracks if you keep them all on the same track).  Unfortunately there's no easy way to do this without doing double the work right now.  Thus far, we haven't been targeting a worfklow of creating captions from scratch, mostly being able to edit content that has already been captioned.

                 

                If you've already been doing that then we need to troubleshoot further.  Can you post a screenshot of your sequence or send the project file to us or anything?  As far as the option being greyed out in the AME UI when exporting to QuickTime .mov files, is the captioning preference enabled in the AME application (in the 'Media' prefs pane). 

                 

                When you author the MXF and your external tools say there's only CEA-608, if you re-import that back into Premiere Pro, does it have both CEA-608 and CEA-708 or just CEA-608?

                • 5. Re: 708 Captions in MXF OP1a?
                  EAdler Level 1

                  Thank you Charles,

                   

                  Right now I'm trying to get just 'plain' 708 DTV Captions functioning before I try muxing 608 into the 708 bitstream along with 708.  Once that works, I will try both. 

                   

                  As for the project file, it is available from the link in my original post (along with the output files).  The source video file is avaialble from the Sintel project (details in my first link). 

                   

                  As for the option being greyed out, I am talking of the option to display the captions in QuickTime on playback of the file, not the option in any Adobe products.  I am able to select what I believe are the appropriate encoding options in the export dialog. 

                   

                  I have not tried importing the file back yet.  I do not have the system I have been using on-hand at this time, I will try to test it later this evening.

                  • 6. Re: 708 Captions in MXF OP1a?
                    EAdler Level 1

                    Ok, at that machine now.  When I author the MXF and the external tools show 608 data in a 708 frame but no captions visible, when I bring it into Premiere Pro and I try to select caption display on the source monitor, that option is greyed out.  If I put it in my timeline with the sequence monitor set for Service 1, it shows nothing when played.  Set for CC1, it still shows nothing.

                    • 7. Re: 708 Captions in MXF OP1a?
                      monstremoi Adobe Employee

                      Hello there -- Can you put this MXF with embedded captions somewhere where I can grab it and take a look at it? Thanks!

                      • 8. Re: 708 Captions in MXF OP1a?
                        EAdler Level 1

                        http://www.tonsofpcs.com/videotest/premierecc/

                         

                        The MXF is "XDCAM 422 1080i MXF OP1a, embedded captions"

                        • 9. Re: 708 Captions in MXF OP1a?
                          EAdler Level 1

                          I've just updated the project to have a 608 caption track as well (made similar to the 708 track) and upon export to both MXF OP1a XDCAM HD 422 50Mbps 1920x1080i29.97 and MOV 1080i29.97, I do not see captions availble in VLC.  I *do* see captions as an availble option in QuickTime now for the MOV and it is decoding the 608 captions*.  I am uploading the project to the same location.    

                           

                          Message was edited by: EAdler *Apologies, an earlier version of this post said I did not see captions available in QT, I had opened the wrong file. 

                          • 10. Re: 708 Captions in MXF OP1a?
                            monstremoi Adobe Employee

                            Good morning -- Thanks for the additional information. Let me go get the latest project from you, and the files you are using, following the link you supplied, and then after I look at it, I'll get back to you. Thanks again!

                            • 11. Re: 708 Captions in MXF OP1a?
                              monstremoi Adobe Employee

                              I got the project and I opened it -- I exported the 608/ 708 caption Sequence you created to an MXF embedded closed caption file and I did get an embedded closed caption MXF that has 608 and 708 displaying in PPRO. I'm using your codec setting defaults in the 'Export Settings' -- embedding to MXF, if you have time to go over these results, let me know, that would be great.

                              • 12. Re: 708 Captions in MXF OP1a?
                                EAdler Level 1

                                What specific export settings did you use? 

                                 

                                Is there something that must be done on import to pull in captions?  I ask because I just pulled in two OP1a MXFs that have captions (not authored by PPro) into OS X PPro 7.1 and I do not see captions there. 

                                • 13. Re: 708 Captions in MXF OP1a?
                                  Wil Renczes Adobe Employee

                                  Ah, I think I know this one, as it bit me the other day - if you have the track targetting enabled, make sure V2 is also on, as captions on embedded sources import as two layers (ie V1 is the video, V2 is the caption overlay, so you can cut it independantly of the video if required), so if the V2 source is off, the captions won't show up.

                                  • 14. Re: 708 Captions in MXF OP1a?
                                    monstremoi Adobe Employee

                                    Hello there

                                     

                                    Export Settings

                                    I used codec settings and export settings you had set in the project you shared for MXF OP1a embedding to closed captioning. Embedding to MXF -- I could see 608 and 708 closed caption in the resulting exported MXF in PPRO CS 7.1. In "Export Settings" via File-> Export-> Media, I also tried other Video Codecs under Video to see if this could make a failure to embed closed captions into MXF -- but I didn't see a problem.

                                     

                                    Preferences to Import Closed Captions

                                    Nothing special needs to be done for PPRO to import closed captions embedded in MXF or MOV files, if the caption data is there, and the user has "Include Captions on Import" checked under Preferences-> Media then that should do it.

                                     

                                    PPRO Monitor Settings to Display 708 CC

                                    One thing to check, is in the Source and the Program monitors -- see if under the wing menu "Closed Captioning Display" "Settings..." is set to CEA-708 -- if it is set to 608 or to a different service not matching the 708 service your CC data is associated with, then you will not see 708 closed captions in either monitors if this is not set right.

                                     

                                    Other OP1a MXF Embedded CC files

                                    You also could post the other two OP1a MXF files that you see are giving you a problem, not showing closed captioning in PPRO CS 7.1, and I can look at them and see what I see.

                                     

                                    Thanks, as always, for following up.

                                    • 15. Re: 708 Captions in MXF OP1a?
                                      monstremoi Adobe Employee

                                      Wil makes a good point -- check your track targeting is not knocking out any tracks with captions in them -- I didn't see this in the project you shared, but it could be you have this activated in the project you are using now.

                                      • 16. Re: 708 Captions in MXF OP1a?
                                        video grandpa

                                        I had a similar problem, at least with importing. Have you imported your test MXF prior to 7.1, or prior to setting Include Captions on Import?

                                         

                                        I have a file from our Omneon that would not import with captions - but then I remembered I had tried to import it before I enabled Include Captions. So I changed the filename, tried the import again - captions! Change the filename back to the original, reimport - no captions.

                                         

                                        So it looks to me like there's caching or something happening in the background that can interfere with caption import. Try changing the name of the MXF and re-importing.

                                        1 person found this helpful
                                        • 17. Re: 708 Captions in MXF OP1a?
                                          video grandpa Level 1

                                          Deleting the Media Cache File for my project fixed it. Default location is C:\Users\<username>\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\Common\Media Cache Files on Windows. There should be a .prmdc file associated with the project - close the project, delete .prmdc file, relaunch project, import MXF.

                                           

                                          Worked for me, hopefully you too.

                                          • 18. Re: 708 Captions in MXF OP1a?
                                            monstremoi Adobe Employee

                                            Yes -- Deleting the media cache file can potentially fix issues like this. After deleting the cache, make sure you have "Include Captions on Import" checked. Also, renaming a file could be another way to see if this fixes a problem importing CC from a file you already imported to PPRO with closed captioning import off, previously.

                                            • 19. Re: 708 Captions in MXF OP1a?
                                              EAdler Level 1

                                              Thanks Chris, Wil, and monstremoi.  I didn't have "Include captions on import" checked.  I do now.  I will check this and try on the Mac again in the morning too.  Unfortunately, these two MXF files are huge.  They took three hours to transfer over a LAN so I will try other options (like checking the preferences ) before sharing (most likely, they'd need to be put on an exernal drive or BD-R and shipped). 

                                               

                                              Loading the initial 708-only XDCAMHD422 MXF file back into PPro, I don't see a caption track.  Loading the 608 QT back in, I see a 608 track properly. 

                                              Loading the 708+608 XDCAMHD422 MXF file, I see both 608 and 708 tracks.  I will try sending this XDCAM file through our workflows to our servers to see if captions are displayed on playout. 

                                               

                                              It seems that having 608+708 exports properly here but having just 708 does not.  Did you test with my first (708-only) project and MXF, monstremoi?  I'm wondering if it is something wrong in how I crafted it, how I exported it, or if there is an issue with PPro with 708-only. 

                                              • 20. Re: 708 Captions in MXF OP1a?
                                                monstremoi Adobe Employee

                                                I'm so happy to hear that things are on track -- and you are seeing closed captions. I've tested CC embedding to 608, 608 + 708, and 708 extensively, and I have not had issues with it. I've used you "SintelTrailerCC-and608' project and exported 608 + 708 CC to MXF and also I took out the 608 CC from the Sequence and embedded the 708 stream into an MXF, no problem. If you export and embed CC to MOV, only 608 will embed into the MOV. If you have a project were you see this problem, and say, if you rebuild the captioning you see the problem with, and you still see the problem, let me know. Thanks as always for the time you have taken to get back and give feedback on this.

                                                • 21. Re: 708 Captions in MXF OP1a?
                                                  chubafelix

                                                  Hello, my questions is about captions but NOT embedded in elementary video stream. Has anyone been able to import captions (or CC) using an MXF OP1a file and located in ancillary data stream of this file? This data stream is VANC encoded binary and it plays out on many systems but when i import into Premiere Pro 7.1.x I see video and audio but NOT CC.

                                                   

                                                  Looking for any clue.
                                                  Thank you

                                                  Felix

                                                  • 22. Re: 708 Captions in MXF OP1a?
                                                    monstremoi Adobe Employee

                                                    Dear Felix

                                                     

                                                    PPRO CS 7.1 supports importing of embedded MXF OP1a closed caption files. Does the embedded MXF display CC in other applications other than PPRO?

                                                     

                                                    If you are still having problems in PPRO CS 7.1 -- try the following:

                                                     

                                                    1. Make sure "Import Captions on Import is Checked" in Preferences: Media

                                                    2. Check to see if the Monitors (via the wing menu in each) are set to display CC and to the closed captioning standard that matches the CC in the file

                                                     

                                                    If you still don't see CC being displayed, associated with the file:

                                                     

                                                    3. Rename the embeded caption name and reimport it

                                                     

                                                    And then lastly, if all else failed:

                                                     

                                                    4. Toss the media cache file -- on windows it is located around C:\Users\<username>\AppData\Roaming\Adobe\Common\Media Cache Files

                                                        There should be a .prmdc file associated with the project - close the project, delete .prmdc

                                                     

                                                    Let me know how it goes!


                                                    C