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I suspect that matter goes to "authoring" versus creating a data disc.
Not only is the format of the content on the disc important, but so is the file system of the disc on which the format will exist.
You can obtain a AVCHD DVD
Premiere Elements 10
I am understanding that you can get playback on your Blu-ray player for that. Is that correct? That AVCHD DVD is often a hard one to find a player for, even Blu-ray player.
You can also obtain a AVCHD DVD
Premiere Elements 10
Share/Disc/AVCHD Folder (4.7 GB)
The BDMV is the saved folder can be taken to DVD in a program such as ImgBurn to give you your AVCHD DVD with AVCHD format on a DVD in the correct file system for the disc. If you say that the AVCHD DVD from the burn to disc in Premiere Elements can be play back on your Blu-ray player, then the expectation would be that the AVCHD DVD created with the assist of Img Burn should be also.
Have you done all that and found otherwise?
What did you burn to disc from the AVCHD burn to folder...the whole BDMV or the .m2ts in the STREAM Folder of the BDMV Folder or other?
And where and how did you do the burn to disc DVD in this case?
Thank you for your insights.
You are correct in your understanding that I can play back the DVD disc generated using Share/Disc/AVCHD Disc. That is, the AVCHD DVD disc burned directly from Premiere Elements 10 can be played in a PS3.
It is the second option you mention, i.e. Share/Disc/AVCHD Folder (4.7 GB), that is not working for me. I have been taking the entire BDMV folder generated (along with all subfolders, files, and structure intact) and burning to a DVD using standard MAC OS 10.7.5 "Finder" functionality (i.e. same process used for burning data to a disc). The files and folder structures look identical in both cases, but curiously, the space used is slightly different. Could this be due to a different file system as you suggest? How would one check which file system is used on each disc?
I have not tried using a separate program to burn the AVCHD files/structure to the DVD. In the past, as mentioned, I have had no problems generating SD DVD's using the "burn to folder" followed by "burn to disc" process using standard OS functionality for burning "data" (both in Windows XP and Mac OS X). So, perhaps naively, I was expecting this same process to also work here with HD video.
I am strictly an Elements Windows user so I cannot speak to the issue in terms of what you are doing with the BDMV Folder from the Premiere Elements AVCHD burn to folder. I suspect tht you are putting the AVCHD format on the DVD disc as a data disc and not getting the correct disc file system.
Here is the story from the Premiere Elements Windows perspective...
If you use Premiere Elements AVCHD burn to disc (which you say is working for you in terms of play back on your Blu-ray player), the resulting disc has the BDMV Folder and the disc file system is UDF.
If you use Premiere Elements DVD burn to disc (presented as a reference point here), the resulting disc has the DVD-VIDEO (OpenDVD Folder and VIDEO_TS Folder) and the disc file system is ISO9660, UDF.
If you take the BDMV Folder from the Premiere Elements AVCHD burn to folder and burn it to a DVD disc as data disc, you have the BDMV Folder on the DVD and the disc file system is ISO9660, Joliet, and not UDF.
Again, at this point, I suspect that you are generating a data disc and are not putting the AVCHD on the DVD disc in the correct file system.
You ask, "How would one check which file system is used on each disc?" The way that I do it...I have Nero 9 that comes with the Nero Info Tool. It gives that information. And, I have used it to confirm what I am reporting.
You need a program that take your BDMV and place in on the DVD with the appropriate file system.
ImgBurn would be perfect for the job, except it is a Windows based program. All over the Internet you can find ImgBurn alternative for Mac. I do not have a Mac computer, so I have not looked at any of those alternatives. Can you do this work on Windows XP to confirm what I suspect?
Please review and then tomorrow we can exchange further thoughts on this.
I think you're correct regarding the "authoring"/ "file system" being the issue.
I've taken a look at the HD DVDs I've created and found the following:
(1) the AVCHD on DVD that plays on PS3 (created by Adobe Premiere Elements 10 directly to disc using MAC) is confirmed to be UDF file system.
(2) the AVCHD on DVD that does NOT play on PS3 (created by disc/AVCHD/burn to folder and then burning disc using MAC) is found to be Mac OSX Extended file system.
Thus, it looks like I will need to find a proper authoring app for the MAC.
Now, onto my prior experience with SD DVD's. Your comments have me worried now regarding what I have been doing previously!
I've taken a look at the SD DVD's I've created and found the following:
(3) The SD on DVD created on Windows XP machine (created by disc/dvd/burn to folder and then burning disc using Windows XP) is confirmed to be UDF file system. These DVDs have played on every system I currently have available (WinDVD on Windows XP PC, DVD Player on MAC OSX, Sony DVD player, Sony PS3). Thus, it appears that Windows XP is creating the proper UDF file system, even though the disc is burned using the same process as for creating a data disc.
(4) the SD on DVD created on MAC PRO OSX machine (created by disc/dvd/burn to folder and then burning disc using Mac OSX) is found to be MAC OSX Extended file system! Having learned this now, it is really surprising to see that these DVDs play on all of the systems mentioned in (3) without any issue, except I now find that they will not play on the Sony PS3!
Thanks for all of your help
I still have a working system of Windows XP Professional SP3 32 bit with Premiere Elements 8.0/8.0.1 installed on it.
Today I will do a comparison between DVD-RW disc file systems when
a. Premiere Elements 8.0/8.0.1 Timeline is burned to disc NTSC Dolby DVD (using Windows 32 bit)
b. Premiere Elements 8.0/8.0.1 Timeline is burned to disc NTSC Dolby DVD (using Windows 7 64 bit)
I will determine the file system in each case, using the disc and Nero Info Tool in Windows 7 64 bit.
Thanks for the interesting follow ups.
You have been kind enough to help me out on another thread, but this one seems to match my current question a bit more closely.
Like the OP, I want to deliver the highest resolution possible. The highest option I can see on PRE12 is AVCHD (H.264 1440x1080p NTSC Dolby).
I am running PRE12, Win7 64bit.
My input is all AVCHD, 1920x1080p 60.
Here are the spec requirements for output:
20min minimum length
*3:4 or 4:3 aspect ratio
* 4.7 GB max size
* Only AUDIO_TS and VIDEO_TS folders in the root directory of the disc.
* Maximum total bit rate for the combined video and audio tracks of 6.5 Mbp/s (megabits per second) “recommended”.
* Dolby Digital (AC-3) audio recommended; PCM and DTS accepted.
* Single sided, single-layer discs.
* Supported DVD formats:
The DVD I submit will be transferred to a production system by the publisher/distributor. I have not gotten a clear answer as to whether or not they can/will work with an AVCHD disc, nor what their output will be. (Like so many companies these days, "customer support" consists of drones responding with canned "one size fits all" generic responses to questions.)
My preference is always to use the most powerful format and pipeline available to me. I am not up on video players, so I have no idea whether current non-BluRay players will read AVCHD. The PRE12 disc burning option for AVCHD is distinct from the BluRay option, which leads me to believe that it is intended for general DVD player use. Or does this just mean that it can be played on PC's built in DVD drives?
I would fear that the AVCHD DVD disc, would not be acceptable, as it is not mentioned. Also, as "4:3" is specified, there *might* be issues with a 16:9 Widescreen DVD-Video.
If those are the ONLY specs. acceptable, then you will be tasked with creating just what they are requesting, but asking them specifics, such as about the AVCHD disc, and the Aspect Ratio would be useful, before you begin editing your Project.
The major deal breaker in those requirements is the insistance of the VIDEO_TS Folder.
That is fixed
4:3 720 x 480
16:9 720 x 480 with the 16:9 flag to stretch that 720 x 480 for display after encoding. Note: 720 x 480 non square pixels = 856 x 480 square pixels.
The best that I can see you coming out of this is with:
1. Project Preset: NTSC DV Standard 4:3
2. 1080p60 16:9 imported and scaled to frame size of the NTSC DV Standard project preset
3. Export as NTSC Dolby DVD 4:3
The format on that encoded disc is set...720 x 480 @ 29.97 interlaced frames per second with Dolby Digital 2 channel Stereo audio.
Note: the DVD-VIDEO standard or widescreen from Premiere Elements (any version) has always been characterized by two folders on the disc, OpenDVD and VIDEO_TS. I have never seen an Audio_TS included in one of these Premiere Elements (any version) burn to.
Thanks. re: 4:3. The PrE12 Export choice of AVCHD (H.264 1440x1080p NTSC Dolby) is a 4:3 aspect ratio...so that would eliminate the 16:9 issue.
I have tested a couple of export settings to DVD and played them on my computer (I'm not a DVD/TV guy so I have no DVD player) and the good news was that no titles were chopped off at the ends. The bad news was jerky slo-mo ("movies" exported to my computer were completely smooth).
re: the VIDO_TS folder: Yes, I found that out to my chagrin after creating a test vid with the AVCHD spec and seeing the smorgasbord of files and folders that the AVCHD spec creates. I even had trouble finding the right one to play the DVD on my computer!
So much for dreams of perfection. I tried the low res output (made a test DVD) and it is horrible, especially the slo-mo parts.
I will try fooling around with Flicker removal, etc. Any suggestions that might be done within PRE12 to improve final output quality will be greatly appreciated. The "movies" exported from PRE to the computer are outstanding. It's a shame they have to be trashed like this for the DVD format.
Focus....1440 x 1080 (4:3) frame size may be part of the 1440 x 1080 HD anamorphic 16:9 choices, but it is definitely a 16:9 choice which depends on the inclusion of a 16:9 flag to stretch the 1440 x 1080 4:3 to 1920 x 1080 16:9 for display after encoding.
Yes, the DVD-VIDEO structure (VIDEO_TS Folder) is markedly different than that of the AVCHD (BDMV Folder).
If Flicker removal is indicated, look in two places for that:
a. right click the Timeline video, select Field Options, select Flicker Removal
b. select the video clip, go to Applied Effects Tab/Applied Effects Palette, Motion Panel expanded, and scroll down to the bottom of that expanded panel to get to the Anti-Flicker option and slider. Max should be 1.0.
Since you are starting with progressive video, I would proceed with caution on any use of Field Options such as Reverse Field Dominance and Always Interlace. Remember, you are starting with progressive video, not interlaced.
Not necessary trashing with DVD format...depends on TV DVD player, TV screen size, etc. Some TV DVD player set ups can actually enhance the DVD-VIDEO playback experience.
re: interlacing, I have avoided it like the plague since the very first video footage I shot, trying out various formats. The i format made flying pelicans look like they each had two set of wings. I have no idea why the i format would be preferred--it certainly gives bizarre effects in some situations.
My comment about trashing was simply that crisp, HD video, when run through the DVD format, ends up very low res and not at all smooth. I can't assume that everyone is going to use the TV for viewing; in fact the 4:3 spec imposed for my project is clearly based on the assumption that they won't. On my 17in HD monitor they looked awful--low res (naturally), not crisp, poor motion. The original footage, and also sample HD "movies" generated in PrE12, were very clean and nice.
BTW we seem to be pursuing more or less the same conversation in two threads (my bad). Do you have a preference for a venue?
Message was edited by: Kawika808 - added BTW
I try to keep track of all the threads and not let any slip through, but sometimes that happens. So, I typically ask "If you do not hear from me, post or send me a private message asking Where Are You?"
Consider, starting a new thread when necessary to focus on a given workflow problem.
Unfortunately, when the thread content branches in different directions from the title, valuable information is hidden within the thread. Often, the originator of the thread and his/her question answer gets lost in cross discussions.
But, we all try to do the best we can.
It's not really different topics. One was something like "How can I get better DVD?" another was something like "How to burn AVCHD to DVD?" Same issue, different way of expressing it.
I've gotta say, after perusing the internet for many hours on this issue, it looks like PrE is not the answer. There are countless posts on many sites, all complaining about the low quality of DVDs from PrE, no matter what the original footage looked like.
Sample comment (by someone who shoots with a Canon 7D), about the DVD quality: "it looks like it could have just been videotaped on an iPhone."
Pretty much sums up my experience.
There has to be program that does a better job, that doesn't cost an arm and a leg. What I don't want is to spend hundreds for an "upgrade" that turns out the same low quality.
One of the issues, that needs to be factored out, is what is the poster using to compare DVD quality with?
Too many assume that their DVD-Videos should be somehow better, if they start with HD (High Def) Assets, but DVD-Video is very old, and limited to SD. When compared to HD material, it WILL be far lower quality. That is unavoidable by the specs. set forth over a decade ago. Back then, the vast majority of all TV's were using a CRT for the display, and were capable of only about 720 x 480 pixels, in Interlaced display (NTSC). Now, many people are displaying on TV's that are HD, and can display 1920 x 1080 with a progressive display. The old DVD-Video DOES look pretty bleak on such displays, and especially when compared to the 1920 x 1080 progressive material.
The way to judge DVD-Video quality is to play it on a calibrated SD CRT studio monitor. Most people are not doing that.
Now, that is not saying that a DVD-Video from PrE will be as good as a commercial, Hollywood DVD-Video, as there are Transcoding programs, that are much better at producing MPEG-2 DVD files. However, those use 10+ pass Encoding, cost US $200,000+, and are run by technicians, who are experts in Encoding for DVD-Video. PrE is limited to the MainConcept 2-pass Encoding, so it will offer lower quality DVD-Videos, than what Hollywood releases, but still, by DVD-Video standards, quite good. The ultimate quality? No. That is where very expensive Encoders and technical experts come in.
When one is comparing SD DVD-Video quality, between consumer authoring programs, with proper settings, I think that most of the complaints will disappear - apples to apples.
Good points all, thanks.
I'm sure some people are comparing to the videos they get from Netflicks, not realizing the cost, manpower and expertise that go into these.
I understand about the DVD size restrictions, although in this era of exponentially expanding storage capabilities, a 4.7GB limit seems almost willfully backward. Many threads online point out that Blu-ray is far better and one wonders why no other manufacturer has bothered. After all, they didn't hesitate to force HDTV on everyone.
Some online threads have extolled the virtues of a program called AVStoDVD. One quote: "AVStoDVD is a powerful true multi-pass encoder that will produce stellar results. This puts it miles ahead of single pass stuff like DVDFlick or even ConvertXtoDVD. Both of which I like and have used, but they can't run with AVStoDVD."
Any thoughts on this? Any experience with AVStoDVD?
One problem is that user evaluations say nothing about the expectations. (The same is true of camera evaluations, etc.) If I were just going to post on Flickr or YouTube or Facebook, I might be very happy with the results I'm getting. But I'm aiming a bit higher. At the same time, at some point I will have to take what I can get and submit the project whether I'm satisfied or not. I just don't want to have that feeling that I left some stone unturned.
I truly appreciate your time, patience and assistance.
I understand about the DVD size restrictions, although in this era of exponentially expanding storage capabilities, a 4.7GB limit seems almost willfully backward.
You are correct, and the intention was for BD (Blu-ray Disc) to completely replace DVD-Video. Going back, there was a war between Sony and some other players in the optical disc world, with BD and DVDHD. Sony and BD won, but Sony took an interesting route - they did everything possible to kill BD in the "burn at home" market, wishing to restrict the use of their BD spec. to ONLY commercial discs. They imposed heavy restrictions, and tariffs on any replication of BD. Unfortunately, the BD format has never realized the market penetration, that DVD-Video did. Even today, DVD-Video has the majority of the market share, and most futurists insist that optical disc delivery is dead, with most of the consumers going to streaming content delivery. Adobe has even dropped its great DVD/BD authoring program, Encore, in favor of streaming delivery. I think that history will show that Sony won the battle, but lost the war.
For a complete, and highly comprehensive look at both DVD-Video and BD, see DVD Demystified, by Jim Taylor. His great and informative Web site will tell you almost anything that you might wish to know, including the complete histories of DVD-Video and BD: http://forums.adobe.com/message/2525832#2525832
Sorry, the communications between you and your thread got detoured by another after posts 4 and 5.
I wanted to make sure about something that you wrote. I was not sure if it was a generalization by you or if you were being very specific.
You wrote in context with your work with AVCHD DVD...
I've taken a look at the HD DVDs I've created and found the following:
HD DVD blank discs are not the same as DVD disc 4.7 GB/120 minutes, DVD disc 8.5 GB/240 minutes, DVD RAM, Blu-ray disc (BD-R, BD-RE 25 or 50 GB). The HD DVD is supposed to be one with a 15 GB capacity. I have never done a AVCHD burn to DVD with a HD DVD type disc in Premiere Elements, and I do not believe they would work. Premiere Elements will not even accept the DVD RAM.
So, just writing to confirm that you were using the designation HD interchangably with AVCHD when you referred to "HD DVDs" that you created and that the HD DVD blank disc never entered into your Premiere Elements workflow.
The "HD" part of "HD DVD's" in my statement was referring to the VIDEO CONTENT that I was attempting to place onto the disc (in my specific case AVCHD).
The "DVD" part of "HD DVD's" in my statement was referring to the DISC itself that I was writing to (in my specific case, a standard single layer 4.7GB DVD disc).
In hindsight, as you noticed, this statement was not very clear at all given the existance of HD DVD discs.
Thank you for clarifying.
Thanks for the reply.
I only recently thought about HD DVD blank discs.
Recently Premiere Elements user reported getting AVCHD DVD playback on a "DVD player". Until that report, my reply and the party line of others has been "You cannot play AVCHD DVD on a DVD player, you need a Blu-ray player."
This user was kind enough to name the "DVD player" involved, and we have been reading this DVD recorder/player manual from start to finish. I need to do some more homework on this report and will post more on this at another time soon, probably in another thread.
Hope all is going well.