22 Replies Latest reply: Dec 4, 2013 4:44 PM by trshaner RSS

    Lightroom 5.2 vs. Canon EOS 70D RAW

    Sheepy

      Hello,

       

      I am testing the trial version of Lightroom 5.2. My new camera is a Canon EOS 70D. When importing RAW files into Lightroom the colors of some photos are wrong. RAWs from my older 450D are fine.

       

      For example on one photo the sky isn't blue but turquoise. When using the DNG Converter I get the same color. The sky was blue though. When opening the file in Digital Photo Professional by Canon, the sky is blue as it should be.

       

      It happens on some other photos as well. Mostly if they have a high blue content. If in Lightroom I increase the blue content and decrease the shades it almost looks as it should.

       

      The question now is: am I doing something wrong, do I need an update or additional plugins or is Lightroom simply interpreting the RAW wrong and will it be solved soon?

       

      Cheers,

       

      Sheepy

        • 1. Re: Lightroom 5.2 vs. Canon EOS 70D RAW
          Sheepy Community Member

          I'll insert some images to show what I mean. What I did with the 4 images is, I opened the RAW in Digital Photo Professional, Irfanview, Lightroom and Rawtherapee and exported/saved them without further modification. Afterwards I resized them all in Lightroom. These are the results:

           

          Digital Photo Professional 3.13.20.0

          IMG_0201_DPP-1.jpg

           

          Irfanview 4.35

          IMG_0201_IV-1.jpg

           

          Lightroom 5.2

          IMG_0201_LR-1.jpg

           

          Rawtherapee 4.0.11.79

          IMG_0201_RT-1.jpg

          As you can see, the colors are rather different. It shows the same when just viewing the images in the different applications. Does anyone have any idea what might be wrong?

           

          Message was edited by: Sheepy (smaller image size)

          • 2. Re: Lightroom 5.2 vs. Canon EOS 70D RAW
            Keith_Reeder Community Member

            You're probably doing nothing wrong - different converters (and viewers) render colours differently, and we can't really expect Adobe to exactly match Canon's colours (although they do try to get close). It's also possible that the 70D Lr profile is a work in progress

             

            It's no surprise that DPP and Irfanview are both about the same - Irfanview uses the preview jpg embedded in the Raw file, so in essence it's showing you Canon's idea of proper colour, just like DPP.

             

            And RT's blue sky is different again to Lr's and DPP's rendering.

             

            Which Picture Style are you using in-camera/in DPP? and which Profile in Lr? Are they equivalent? (They can't be the same - Lr can't use DPP's profiles - but as I suggest, Adobe's profies are an attempt to approximate the in-camera colours. Sometimes they do very well, sometimes less so).

             

            Try "Camera Landscape" and see if that improves the blues in the image.

             

            Understand though, that you might eventually need to create your own "tweaked" profile to get the sky just how you like it - have a play with the "Blue Primary" Hue slider get to rid of the turquoise colour cast.

            • 3. Re: Lightroom 5.2 vs. Canon EOS 70D RAW
              trshaner Community Member

              In addition to what Keith mentioned are you hardware calibrating your monitor?

               

              LR automatically uses the monitor profile assigned in the OS color management, but DPP, IrFanviewiew and RawTherapee require manually selecting the monitor profile in their color managment preferences settings. If you don't do this an sRGB profile is used by default.

               

              If you are concerned about "accurate" color rendering you should consider using both a hardware monitor calibrator and ColorChecker Passport to create calibrated camera profiles and white balance settings for each camera body, and for different lighting conditions.

               

              Lacking a CCPP you could as Keith suggested attempt to correct the colors using the controls in LR's Camera Calibration panel. If you are happy with the results make sure to save the Camera Calibration settings as a Develop Preset or in the Camera Profile Default settings.

              • 4. Re: Lightroom 5.2 vs. Canon EOS 70D RAW
                Keith_Reeder Community Member

                trshaner wrote:

                 

                LR automatically uses the monitor profile assigned in the OS color management

                 

                Ah, good point, Todd - I'd completely forgotten that.

                • 5. Re: Lightroom 5.2 vs. Canon EOS 70D RAW
                  Sheepy Community Member

                  Hello Keith,

                   

                  thank you for your reply. I didn't know that RAWs can embed jpg images which are shown in viewers. That explains at least why an older version of IV gives good colors. I noticed that RT has some kind of greyish tint to it. That is why I am not using it to develop the RAWs.

                   

                  The picture style in DPP is 'Standard', in LR it is 'Adobe Standard'. Using 'Camera Landscape gives deep blue results as shown below.

                   

                  IMG_0201-LR_CLS.jpg

                   

                  I modifed the blue color slider to see if that gets the images any better. This is a result with Blue +20 and Shades -100 to get the shadows below the wings dark enough.

                   

                  IMG_0201-LR_BlueShades.jpg

                   

                  Moving the blue primary slider to +14, saturation to +10 in camera calibration and shades to -50 I get a result that's close to the original as well.

                   

                  IMG_0201-BluePrimaryShades.jpg

                   

                  So considering that the 70D profile in LR is preliminary and will be adjusted later, how long to your experience does it take and how to get it once it's there? I mean, the colors differ quite a lot in my opinion, so if Adobe tries to get close there will probably be some changes.

                   

                  Considering I'll have to make my own profile I'll probably find a help thread somewhere. Will that profile apply automatically for all images taken with that camera? So I try to find good settings which match most of the images and then use it on all images?

                   

                   

                  Hello trshaner,

                   

                  I have not calibrated my monitors. And yet LR seems to show good colors from RAWs of my 450d. I am not concerned about 'accurate' colors because I probably won't see the difference between 'accurate' and 'almost accurate'. I am concerned about not having 'wrong' colors. I have sent the RAW to a friend who has CS6 to see how the RAW looks on his computer. Thus I hopefully can at least say if it has something to do with my non calibration or with Adobe's camera profile.

                  • 6. Re: Lightroom 5.2 vs. Canon EOS 70D RAW
                    trshaner Community Member

                    Sheepy wrote:

                    So considering that the 70D profile in LR is preliminary and will be adjusted later, how long to your experience does it take and how to get it once it's there? I mean, the colors differ quite a lot in my opinion, so if Adobe tries to get close there will probably be some changes.

                    LR5.2 Final Release has the final Canon 70D camera profiles. They probably won't be updated unless there are  issues reported by many LR users. The color issues you are seeing are very typical with ALL camera models for the reasons Keith mentioned. I've found the DPP camera profiles to be more color accurate than LR's with my 300D, 600D, and 5D MKII, but my CCPP created profiles are even better.

                     

                    Sheepy wrote:

                    Considering I'll have to make my own profile I'll probably find a help thread somewhere. Will that profile apply automatically for all images taken with that camera? So I try to find good settings which match most of the images and then use it on all images?

                    Considering that your monitor is not hardware calibrated this is probably an exercise in futility. You have no idea what Color Temperature (6500K), Gamma (2.2), or Luminance level (120cd/m2) your monitor is displaying, which dramatically affects the color. If your only concern is how the images look on this one monitor, then go for it! If you intend on making prints or sending the images to other people you should definitely hardware calibrate your monitor. Lacking that you're probably better off shooting in-camera raw + JPEG and send the JPEG files uncorrected in LR for printing or emailing.

                     

                    It's obvious you are concerned about how your images look (accurate or not) inside LR. You should be equally concerned about how they'll look in print or other monitors (calibrated or not). Your best solution is to beg, borrow, or buy a good hadware monitor calibrator. Once that is accomplished you'll be working with 20/20 color vision when making your adjustments inside LR.

                    • 7. Re: Lightroom 5.2 vs. Canon EOS 70D RAW
                      trshaner Community Member

                      Here's a typical example of what I'm seeing with my Canon bodies using different camera profiles inside LR. This is a raw file from a Canon 300D with all three images using identical settings inside LR except for the camera profile:

                       

                      Click on image to see full-size.

                      Camera Profile Examples.jpg

                      • 8. Re: Lightroom 5.2 vs. Canon EOS 70D RAW
                        Sheepy Community Member

                        I managed to calibrate my monitors with a friend's hardware calibrator. The display of the photo in LR didn't change much. Still way too greenish sky.

                         

                        Now I noticed that depending on the export option in LR (sRGB, aRGB, ProPhoto) I get pretty different colors in the exported JPEG files if I view them in IrfanView. None of them looks like the original that I see in LR. Funnily I noticed when writing this post that all exported images in the browser look the same - as each other and as in LR. looking at the LR-exports in LR they look the same - greenish sky. Looking at the LR-exports in DPP they look the same - blue sky. I managed to set IrfanView to enable color management with current monitor profile. Now I get the same view in LR, Irfanview and Firefox. I guess that's a plus. Furthermore I found an option in DPP to use the monitor profile - the sky looks a litlle green but there are differences to LR still.

                         

                        LR sRGB

                        IMG_0201_LR_cal_sRGB.jpg

                         

                        LR aRGB

                        IMG_0201_LR_cal_aRGB.jpg

                         

                        LR ProPhoto

                        IMG_0201_LR_cal_PP.jpg

                         

                        DPP aRGB with color management

                        IMG_0201_DPP_cal_aRGB_CM.JPG

                         

                        Now that I managed to get the photos to look (almost) the same in all the applications that I use (FF, LR, IV being the most important) and having the monitors calibrated I can go back to my original question.

                         

                        How comes that the sky looks so green although it wasn't when I shot the photo? Are there any more settings that I can make to get the colors on import better? Can I simply and with good conscience move my sliders now so that the image looks the way I like it and others will see it the same way (mainly on a website)?

                         

                        Edit: Actually they only look green when writing the post. When looking at the finished post they look blue to me. Which is not what I saw in all my programs before. I am a little lost with how colors work I guess. I'd appreciate any hints.

                         

                        Edit 2: When clicking on the images in this post they have the original color.

                        • 9. Re: Lightroom 5.2 vs. Canon EOS 70D RAW
                          JimHess CommunityMVP

                          Simply and with good conscience? Of course you can. That's what Lightroom is for. If you find that your images are consistently showing a green tint then you can use the tint slider to adjust that until it looks right. Additionally you can use the hue/saturation sliders to adjust further. When you are satisfied, save new camera defaults. That will make that adjustment your default setting, and it will be applied automatically whenever you import new images. It wouldn't change images that are already imported unless you clicked on the reset button. But if you do that, any other adjustments that you had made would be reset as well.

                          • 10. Re: Lightroom 5.2 vs. Canon EOS 70D RAW
                            trshaner Community Member

                            The most recently posted images ALL look pretty good and have good color accuracy.

                            Sheepy wrote:

                            Now that I managed to get the photos to look (almost) the same in all the applications that I use (FF, LR, IV being the most important) and having the monitors calibrated I can go back to my original question.

                             

                            How comes that the sky looks so green although it wasn't when I shot the photo? Are there any more settings that I can make to get the colors on import better? Can I simply and with good conscience move my sliders now so that the image looks the way I like it and others will see it the same way (mainly on a website)?

                            From your description I would investigate the WB setting, which for Green shift usually means the WB Tint setting is wrong for the lighting at the time the images were shot. You may also need to adjust the WB Temp setting. If your using 'As Shot' White Balance in the LR Basic Panel, try setting it to 'Daylight' for these images. If you have  a neutral gray or white (but not clipped) area in the picture you can use the WB Eyedropper tool. I would suggest investing in a White Balance card and shoot it  to establish your own "custom" Daylight  (Sunny, Cloudy), Tungsten, and other lighting conditions you use. You can then create Develop Presets for each lighting condition that use your custom measured WB settings. I also set my Develop module "Default Settings" to the most used lighting condition, which for me is Sunny Daylight. I've found the WB settings do NOT need to be changed when switching Camera Profiles from Adobe Standard to the Camera Standard, Camera Landscape, etc. profiles.

                             

                            http://www.amazon.com/GENUINE-WhiBal-Certified-Neutral-Balance/dp/B004G3NW5M/ref=cm_cr_pr_ product_top

                             

                            Sheepy wrote:

                            Edit 2: When clicking on the images in this post they have the original color.

                            When viewing posted images in a web browser they will never look identical to the view in LR, which is more accurate due a wider colorspace and bit depth. (sRGB/ProPhoto and 8/16 bit).

                             

                            IMHO, using the LR Camera Calibration controls without a good "calibrated" reference image like the ColorChecker will most likely cause more issues than they correct. To get more accurate colors beyond simply correcting the White Balance I highly recomend purchasing a ColorChecker Passport, which uses a LR plugin to "automatically" create a "custom" camera profile for each of your cameras. You'll still need to measure and set the WB, but that's a simple process using the ColorChecker image. You then save the WB settings with the the custom CCPP camera profile as a Develop preset. You can also set your most used WB setting (Sunny Daylight?) and the custom Camera profile as part of your LR "Default Settings."

                            • 11. Re: Lightroom 5.2 vs. Canon EOS 70D RAW
                              Sheepy Community Member

                              Thank you again for your replies.

                               

                              I think you are seeing different things from what I see. I exported a green sky from LR. I see the exported jpegs green and I see it green in the forum if I click on the images. With green I mean not some not so blue but rather into turqoise. At my computer at work I see all pictures in the marvellous blue that I assume you are seeing as well.

                               

                              So did the calibration fail? Colors in all other applications and the calibration software look good. Could it be that the blue of the sky is just some odd color that my monitor can't display? I can see blues. The blue from that photo is green in LR and DPP with the calibrated monitor profile.

                               

                              I don't think that calibrating the camera profile would do any good at this point. I would probably not see the difference. Looking at the unchanged RAW it seems green as well as the exported images I posted in my last post.

                               

                              So why do the images seem different on other computers than on mine?

                              • 12. Re: Lightroom 5.2 vs. Canon EOS 70D RAW
                                trshaner Community Member

                                Sheepy wrote:

                                I think you are seeing different things from what I see. I exported a green sky from LR. I see the exported jpegs green and I see it green in the forum if I click on the images. With green I mean not some not so blue but rather into turqoise. At my computer at work I see all pictures in the marvellous blue that I assume you are seeing as well.

                                The blue sky in the screenshot images in post #8 have virtually no green tint that I can see on my hardware calibrated standard gamut (~sRGB gamut) monitor.

                                 

                                Something is wrong with the monitor profile and/or monitor. What model monitor(s) are you using and is it a LR dual-screen configuration? Also what hardware calibrator did you use and with what settings (For example: 6500K, 2.2. Gamma, 120cd/m2)?

                                • 13. Re: Lightroom 5.2 vs. Canon EOS 70D RAW
                                  Sheepy Community Member

                                  From your last post I was assuming that you saw no green tint so I checked at work and also saw none. This is what confused me.

                                   

                                  When I first calibrated the monitor the before/after images in the profiling software were different but looking good in the after view. All other images that I am looking at are having good colors. Except the one RAW with that blue sky (and the other one taken at the same time with a similar angle).

                                   

                                  Monitors: Samsung S24A450BW
                                  Dual-Screen: I only use one monitor for LR but it looks the same in both.
                                  Calibrator: X-Rite iDisplay

                                   

                                  Settings: White LED, D65, 160 cd/m², Gamma 2.2 other values left on standard using the larger color palette (462 colors) for profiling.

                                   

                                  I changed the monitor settings manually to have a rather good match to start with.

                                   

                                  With the profile I ran the check that the software provides and it says it passed. The other values I can't interpret but the result is passed.

                                   

                                  Edit:

                                  Actually I noticed that 2 fields in the check were off. One was green and the other... turquoise. This one has the larges deviation:

                                   

                                  Index: 23

                                  RGB: 0,00  133,13  160,60

                                  L*a*b (target): 49,56  -28,23  -27,75

                                  L*a*b (measured): 51,64  -17,89  -24,72

                                  DeltaE(76): 10,97

                                   

                                  Does that mean that even after calibration in that range there is an error in color display? Is there a possibility to get a good fit in this range?

                                  • 14. Re: Lightroom 5.2 vs. Canon EOS 70D RAW
                                    trshaner Community Member

                                    A DeltaE of 10.97 is going to be visible. Upload the i1 Display created profile to this site and compare it to sRGB to see what the gamut looks like:

                                     

                                    http://www.iccview.de/content/view/3/7/lang,en/

                                     

                                    Post a screenshot showing the missing area (probably Blue).

                                    • 15. Re: Lightroom 5.2 vs. Canon EOS 70D RAW
                                      Sheepy Community Member

                                      ICC_Comparing_2.jpg

                                       

                                      The gridded profile is my own profile. I had to recalibrate because the ICC-Viewer couldn't handle the version 4 profile. The DeltaE changed to 11.4 in that specific color.

                                       

                                      To me it appears that my profile doesn't cover the upper part of the sRGB in this case green oder cyan to magenta (from what I see, might be blue of course).

                                       

                                      So apparently I can't see all sRGB colors with my profile? Is there a possibility to adjust that? To me it seems like the interpretation of that specific blue in my system is wrong although I can see blues.

                                      • 16. Re: Lightroom 5.2 vs. Canon EOS 70D RAW
                                        trshaner Community Member

                                        Yes, there is a large part of the sRGB Blue-Purple gamut (under B- axis) your monitor is not capable of displaying. This is surprising since the Samsung S24A450BW uses an LED backlight, which should have very little color-shift due to aging and a wider gamut than CCFL backlight monitors. My HP 2509m TN monitor uses CCFL backlights and is showing signs of aging with a shift to Yellow. My monitor has better gamut under the -B axis, which I beleive is causing the green tint. As bad as my monitor gamut looks it displays the ColorChecker Passport 24 color patches with very good accuracy, except the one deep Blue patch is slightly less saturated.

                                         

                                        Suggestions:

                                         

                                        -Use a DVI connection and not VGA. Make sure the OS Display settings show 32bit color mode.

                                         

                                        -Check all of the monitor's control settings and turn off any Contrast or Brightness Enhancements such as "Samsung Magic."

                                         

                                        -Set Contrast control to equivalent of 75 out of 100 maximum and leave it there during calibration.

                                         

                                        - Set the i1 Display software Preferences or Options to ICC2 and Matrix profile type.

                                         

                                        - Calibrate using a Color Temp 6500K (D65), Luminance level of 120 cd/m2, and 2.2 Gamma.

                                         

                                        - Use the monitor's custom RGB color controls to establish the 6500K target White Point at the begining of the calibration.

                                         

                                        - Use only the Brightness control (if possible) to set the target 120cd/m2 Luminace level.

                                         

                                        - Run the calibration and when completed check that the new profile is assigned under the OS Color Management.

                                        Monitor sRGB Gamut Compare.jpg

                                        • 17. Re: Lightroom 5.2 vs. Canon EOS 70D RAW
                                          Sheepy Community Member

                                          The monitors are not even a year old so it should not be aging rather than quality.
                                          - One is connected with DVI/DVI, the other with DVI/HDMI (monitor/computer)
                                          - I switched off everything I found.
                                          - Contrast to 70
                                          - ICC2 is the profile version? Set. Matrix Profile is preset.
                                          - Color temperature and gamma I used before, I have decreased the luminance to 120.
                                          - This time I set the color controls...
                                          - ... and brightness as accurate as I could.
                                          - Calibration has run with large amount of colors, i1Profiler automatically sets the profile.

                                           

                                          Gamut.jpg

                                           

                                          Since the chunk of sRGB space is still missing, the DeltaE of that color is still around 11 and nothing in the photo changed I reckon my monitor is not capable of displaying that part of color space and there is nothing I can change about it except buying new ones?

                                          • 18. Re: Lightroom 5.2 vs. Canon EOS 70D RAW
                                            trshaner Community Member

                                            Check your display Control Panel and make sure nothing is set off defaults. Here's my Nvidia Control Panel. If the monitors are still under warranty consider contacting Samsung Tech Support with the issue. They may be aware of a manufacturing issue and offer repair under warranty or other remediation.

                                             

                                            Nvidia Control Panel.jpg

                                            • 19. Re: Lightroom 5.2 vs. Canon EOS 70D RAW
                                              Sheepy Community Member

                                              And thanks again. I have contacted Samsung since my Intel control panel seemed to be set to defaults. It looks like I can only assign one profile for both monitors though. I read that this is dependent on the graphics card. I am using an onboard Intel HD graphic on a recent Asus Mainboard. As a last resort: could it be that the graphics card is the bottle neck and doesn't supply the monitors with the colors they should display?

                                              • 20. Re: Lightroom 5.2 vs. Canon EOS 70D RAW
                                                trshaner Community Member

                                                The Windows OS Color Management controls profile assignment. The monitors should appear as separate 'Display1' and 'Display 2' devises, allowing them to be assigned separate profiles. What monitor calibration software did you use and did you give the profiles different names so you can identify the profiles? If so you can manually assign the profiles using Windows Color Management.

                                                 

                                                Regardless of the above issue the gamut of the monitor displayed in the 3D profile viewer is what it is......Please keep us posted on Samsung's response.

                                                • 21. Re: Lightroom 5.2 vs. Canon EOS 70D RAW
                                                  Sheepy Community Member

                                                  I used the i1Profiler Software. Apparently my Problem was that I had 4 Monitors in the color management. Left and right with Intel HD as standard. If I changed the profile of one Monitor here, the other as changed accordingly. I also had the 2 Samsung monitors there which could have separate profiles and which actually changed the look of what I saw. So everything is fine.

                                                   

                                                  The answer from Samsung (Germany) came within one work day. It roughly translates to:

                                                  These monitors are office.monitors, they're made for 'normal' work and not for graphic processing. It is not a defect, they're made that way.

                                                   

                                                  They also recommended 2 of their monitors that would show the entire desired color space.

                                                   

                                                  So I'd call this closed because I know my monitors simply can't display the color and because it definitely is no Ligtroom issue.

                                                   

                                                  Thanks again for all the help.

                                                  • 22. Re: Lightroom 5.2 vs. Canon EOS 70D RAW
                                                    trshaner Community Member

                                                    It's hard to believe that an LED backlight monitor has poorer blue gamut than a CCFL TN monitor, but Samsung wouldn't tell you that unless it was true.

                                                     

                                                    Just to rule at issues with the monitor profile try assiging the sRGB.icc profile in Windows Color Management to one of the monitors and see how that looks with LR.