25 Replies Latest reply: Dec 11, 2014 1:06 PM by jonny9091 RSS

    Adobe, please stop running from this issue! (GPU vs CPU anomalies / fades)

    Cubase

      Adobe,

       

      I have tried to bring this issue to light many times, and your own users have argued it ad finem, but to no avail! I am TIRED of getting terrible alpha blending (and opacity curve) results with GPU acceleration enabled, vs CPU. In fact, it is SO BAD that I NEVER work with GPU acceleration any more.

       

      Here is the issue:

       

      When GPU acceleration is enabled, you simply CANNOT do a smooth fade and/or cross dissolve. It appears to fade down smoothly to about 20% opacity, and then the next frame it will jump right to 0% quite abruptly and disappear. It's almost as if the fade simply gives up and switches off! Regardless of whether you use Cross Dissolve, or Film Dissolve the results are the same. Also, your alpha blending is all messed up, CLEARLY showing a different result when comparing CPU and GPU rendering outputs. Once again, this issue ONLY exists with GPU acceleration ENABLED. Switch off GPU/MPE and the problems disappear. But of course you lose the speed and other benefits GPU acceleration offers, which would be great to have! Especially seeing as I have also heard (from various other resources) that GPU acceleration can improve the quality of rendering out to compressed formats like H264. But we will never know that, will we? Because, every time I enable GPU, my fades and blending looks noticeably bad!

       

      I have seen in various other threads that your response has been along the lines of: "That's just the way it is". But unless your name is Bruce Hornsby, this response is unacceptable! You cannot advertise a "great feature" of your products (in this case, GPU/MPE), yet when people try to use it and see odd results, simply tell us: "oh by the way, yeah, it does not work in a few scenarios, like fading, but otherwise you are good to go!" The way I see it: cross-fades (even fades in general) as well as opacity/blending are some of the most common, if not THE most common techniques used in video projects! Having an anomaly of this nature showing a DISTINCT difference in quality output when one of your fantastic "features" is enabled is just poor form. What is evern poorer is your responses (or lack thereof) related to the issue. Especially seeing as this problem has been present since CS5, and now we are STILL seeing it in CC!

       

      Here is a thread which documents the issue well (even shows examples, and other details someone prepared for you to apparently ignore):

       

      http://forums.adobe.com/thread/773441

       

      ...it was never addressed there.

       

      Another issue which details it going back as far as CS 5.5:

       

      http://forums.adobe.com/thread/987306

       

      ...once again, never resolved.

       

      Now I am using CC, latest version, up-to-date, a fast i7 processor, a CUDA supported card, and all of those go to waste because I have to have GPU and the mercury playback engine disabled to yield decent quality results.

       

      I implore you, not just for myself, but on behalf of everybody here who has already addressed this issue, but has had their pleas fall on deaf ears: PLEASE FIX THIS PROBLEM. Telling us simply that: "This is the way GPU cards choose to render" is NOT ACCEPTABLE. It's just like me saying when I drive my car on the wrong side of the road: "that's just the way I drive!". Doesn't mean it is acceptable!

       

      You may have won people over since Final Cut Pro screwed the pooch with version X... but I can guarantee if this does not get resolved soon, the issue won't just be isolated to the forums here. Expect to read about it in MANY online publications that I am sure your competitors will ENJOY watching!

       

      Mat.

        • 1. Re: Adobe, please stop running from this issue! (GPU vs CPU anomalies / fades)
          Kevin-Monahan Adobe Employee

          Hi Mat,

          Sorry you're having trouble. Is "Composite in Linear Color" enabled in your Sequence Settings? If not, please enable it and compare the results.

           

          Thanks,

          Kevin

          • 2. Re: Adobe, please stop running from this issue! (GPU vs CPU anomalies / fades)
            Cubase Community Member

            Hi Kevin,

             

            Thank you for your response. Unfortunately, while it does resolve the "fades" issue, it creates very odd results in the project overall. Particularly in the blending space. While I understand this feature was added in order to try and alleviate the initial problem, it creates a totally new third variation in the overall project look and output. And now, I have no idea which one I should be following as the "true" representation.

             

            Let me explain these variations further:

             

            Variation 1: CPU only (Mercury Playback Engine DISABLED)...

             

            As far as I can tell, this is the most accurate representation of the overall output of the final video. I.e. What you see in the edit will translate almost EXACTLY to what you see in the render. However, the problem is: you lose the benefits of the MPE.

             

            Variation 2: GPU accelerated (Mercury Playback Engine ENABLED), and Linear Color enabled (as it is by default)...

             

            The issues are present as explained above... fades are not smooth and blending is terrible.

             

            Variation 3: GPU accelerated (Mercury Playback Engine ENABLED), and Linear Color disabled (as recommended by you)...

             

            This is a new beast. While this fixes the problem with the fades (making them smoother overall) is yields very strange results with how layers, text and colors are blended. I am not actually sure if what I am seeing is correct, or not? For example... I had a layer of text in the background which was set at around 20% opacity, with 100% opacity text fading up over the top. When I was in CPU only mode or GPU default mode (Var 1 or 2), the 20% text was subtle, but visible. But when I disabled the linear color option with GPU enabled (Var 3 as you recommended), even at 20% opacity this layer is basically INVISIBLE. I have to ramp it up to 40% before you even see it start to appear. Bare in mind, I am using correctly calibrated monitors. There are also differences in how layers interact with each other. Sometimes having one object fade over another results in the top-most object appearing to fade up faster in the areas where the bottom object appears to contain a higher luminance.

             

            Now, the big question is: which one is the right one??

             

            Perhaps a more in-depth explanation as to what the "Composite in Linear Color" option actually does will help us understand?

             

            Mat.

            • 3. Re: Adobe, please stop running from this issue! (GPU vs CPU anomalies / fades)
              gandem_ Community Member

              I too would like to hear a more in-depth explanation of this.

               

              Cubase... I am experiencing the same issues with the same results, and like you, I'm trying to wrap my head around what Premiere is doing.  Basic name supers created in the Title window inside Premiere look awful when you apply a shadow, I suppose this is a result of the blending issues you mention.  The only safe output is attained when MPE hardware acceleration is disabled in software only mode.

              • 4. Re: Adobe, please stop running from this issue! (GPU vs CPU anomalies / fades)
                Cubase Community Member

                Indeed. Yes Adobe, please explain.

                 

                And here is an example of what I am talking about:

                 

                CPU only (MPE and GPU DISABLED):

                This appears to be what I would consider accurate, as it is not only well blended, but the fades work smoothly thanks to it relying on the CPU...

                 

                CPU_only.jpg

                 

                GPU (MPE and GPU ENABLED - Linear Color ON - as per default):

                This provides identical image quality/blending results as the CPU only benchmark. However, the fades are very abrupt, as per the original problem...

                 

                GPU_LinearON.jpg

                 

                GPU (MPE and GPU ENABLED - Linear Color OFF, as per your recommendation):

                This is your recommended solution. The fades are as smooth as they are in the CPU version. But as you can see the color, alpha and blending are VASTLY different. Actually, it looks HORRIBLE! The BG text is barely visible, and the foreground text appears to be more prevalent over the top of the back layer, making its fade-up quite disjointed and selective.

                 

                GPU_LinearOFF.jpg

                 


                ...So as you can see, the "solution" you provided seems to create more problems and/or inconsistencies in the overall output. Now we have no idea what is the "standard"!

                 

                I personally find these inconsistency's very concerning. And I am sure I'm not the only one. Please tell me there is actually a logic to this "solution" and it wasn't a simple duct-tape fix that nobody there at Adobe actually looked deeper into to see exactly how it would effect overall image quality! It sure appears that way!

                 

                I appreciate that you, Kevin, are not directly responsible for this issue, and you are indeed a representative trying to help. But please realize that for many of us here, we are LONG time Premiere users, with years of experience and influence in this industry, and this definitely isn't our first rodeo! When we flag these issues we do so out of a REAL need, which means the consequences Adobe faces as a result of not addressing these issues are equally as REAL! As such; I encourage you to expedite the process of resolving this issue, because it has been prevalent since CS5.5, and the fact that it is not been resolved and/or has been addressed poorly does not bode well for your overall reputation. Especially when you are trying to make Premiere the industry standard. Like I said, I would hate to have to look at alternatives, so give me a solution, because if I decide to move on from using Premiere, I won't be the last. And no, I am not being melodramatic here. If a piece of software cannot seem to get something as simple as fades and blend modes right (or at least CONSISTENT), how can the software be trusted to handle high-end workflows? Food for thought.

                 

                Mat.

                • 5. Re: Adobe, please stop running from this issue! (GPU vs CPU anomalies / fades)
                  gandem_ Community Member

                  Cubase,

                   

                  I 100% agree, and you have the issue well documented.  I have filled out a bug report about my experiences with this back in CS6 and now CC, but have heard nothing.  These are not instances that only appear in high-end compositing, they are pretty basic occurrences in real world editing.  They must be addressed.

                  • 6. Re: Adobe, please stop running from this issue! (GPU vs CPU anomalies / fades)
                    gandem_ Community Member

                    Kevin,

                     

                    Is there any response to these inconsistencies?  Mat has this very well documented.

                     

                    Bug reports have been sent in.

                     

                    Is there any plan to address these issues?

                    • 8. Re: Adobe, please stop running from this issue! (GPU vs CPU anomalies / fades)
                      Cubase Community Member

                      It has now been a week since this issue was brought up. We STILL have not heard anything from Adobe despite the multiple reaponses in support of a satisfactory solution to this problem. Patience is wearing thin, not only for myself but all of those who have also chosen to participate in this well documented thread. I have taken the time to flag this issue with Adobe in great detail, I would appreciate the same courtesy extended in return. Please address this issue immediately, and don't just offer us a stock standard solution that does not work (evidently so).

                      • 9. Re: Adobe, please stop running from this issue! (GPU vs CPU anomalies / fades)
                        J. Simon Community Member

                        This is a user forum.  Staff participation is never guaranteed.

                         

                        Chances are you will be waiting far longer for a fix that any deadlines for current projects.  My advice is to use Software only for now.

                        • 10. Re: Adobe, please stop running from this issue! (GPU vs CPU anomalies / fades)
                          Cubase Community Member

                          I appreciate your input as another community member, and that is indeed what I ave had to resort to doing, but that does not satisfy me, nor any of the above users unfortunately. I understand this is a user forum, but many of us have tried the "official" method of flagging this issue, but to no avail. When multiple bug reports have been submitted since CS 5.5 and evidently ignored you would want to explore other avenues of bringing the issue to light. The fact that we have had to resort to flagging the issue in a public forum should actually be more concerning for Adobe as it is now "out there" for current and potential customers to see. It is also indexable via google searches. The question now is: how long will they ignore it?

                          • 11. Re: Adobe, please stop running from this issue! (GPU vs CPU anomalies / fades)
                            J. Simon Community Member

                            Probably as long as they feel other matters take priority, which none of us can predict.

                             

                            Hell, it took them 8 years and 6 versions to fix subclips, which got broke in CS2 and didn't get fixed until CC.  (And even now there are some issues still.)

                             

                            It's kind of a "squeaky wheel" situation, and we mere users have no way of knowing how many squeaks Adobe is seeing on any given issue.  What I can say is that only the bug reports count on that tally.  Forums posts do not.

                            • 12. Re: Adobe, please stop running from this issue! (GPU vs CPU anomalies / fades)
                              Averdahl Community Member

                              Cubase,

                               

                              If the text in your project is titles created in Premiere Pro's Title Designer, can you please send me the project file so i can see this and test it here.  Or, send the images as well as the project file. Send it to roger at lrtv dot se

                               

                              /Roger

                              • 13. Re: Adobe, please stop running from this issue! (GPU vs CPU anomalies / fades)
                                gandem_ Community Member

                                Cubase,

                                 

                                Have you ever been contacted by Adobe in any form concerning this issue?

                                 

                                After filing 3 bug reports, two for CS6 and 1 for CC with this identical issue, I have never been contacted.

                                 

                                You would think that after submitting this issue through proper channels 3 times, that there would be some acknowledgement of the issue or a comment on status.

                                • 14. Re: Adobe, please stop running from this issue! (GPU vs CPU anomalies / fades)
                                  J. Simon Community Member
                                  You would think that after submitting this issue through proper channels 3 times, that there would be some acknowledgement of the issue or a comment on status.

                                   

                                  I wouldn't think that at all.  I'm sure Adobe get's a lot of reports.  They follow up on very, very few.

                                  • 15. Re: Adobe, please stop running from this issue! (GPU vs CPU anomalies / fades)
                                    gandem_ Community Member

                                    Seriously?

                                     

                                    You have an issue that affects, dare I say, anyone who is using hardware acceleration, whether they realize it or not.

                                     

                                    The only known workaround, as Cubase shows us, is to not use hardware acceleration. (Arguably the biggest selling point for using Premiere)

                                     

                                    Don't you think the users deserve some kind of attention/communication from Adobe, either through official channels, or here on the public forum?

                                     

                                    Or is denial not just the name of a river in Egypt?

                                     

                                    I am a fan, and a user, however this issue needs to be addressed, and it all begins with admitting you have a problem.

                                    • 16. Re: Adobe, please stop running from this issue! (GPU vs CPU anomalies / fades)
                                      J. Simon Community Member

                                      I have no issue with transitions using Liner Color, so this does not affect me at all.  I'd wager that holds true for most PP users.

                                      • 17. Re: Adobe, please stop running from this issue! (GPU vs CPU anomalies / fades)
                                        Cubase Community Member

                                        Interesting Jim. Not to doubt your experiences, but from my own every single person who I have pointed out the issue to (in my attempts to research and get to the bottom of it) has found exactly the same inconsistencys I have found. And I would've riased this with well over 20 people, in various hardware / software setups (Quadro cards, GeForce cards, different versions of premiere and different operating systems). However, that said: most of those people did not even know the problem existed until I pointed it out. Once I did, they all agreed it was something of concern to them as it does affect the final output of their work.

                                         

                                        Now, addressing this "Linea Color" option: You can see in my 2nd post above which shows image examples: Linear Color does work to fix the clunky transitions, but results in stange anomalies in the alpha blending modes and color. Perhaps you should do your own testing using the same methodology? If you yield similar results to me then you are indeed in the same camp as the rest of us. If, however, it seems to be OK on your setup, I would like to know about about what kind of hardware configuration you are using so that I may understand the phenomenon more.

                                        • 18. Re: Adobe, please stop running from this issue! (GPU vs CPU anomalies / fades)
                                          gandem_ Community Member

                                          Jim,

                                           

                                          In the first linked discusssion, posted by Cubase, you appear to have been in the same boat as us with hardware acceleration.  What version did you stop having the issue?

                                          • 19. Re: Adobe, please stop running from this issue! (GPU vs CPU anomalies / fades)
                                            shooternz Community Member

                                            I have  a little time on my hands today.

                                             

                                            If some wants to clearly outline a little test  and methodology  ..I am happy to test it here.

                                             

                                            WIn 7 , CC7.1

                                            • 20. Re: Adobe, please stop running from this issue! (GPU vs CPU anomalies / fades)
                                              PierreLouisBeranek Community Member

                                              Hi Mat,

                                               

                                              First of all I want to say that it's nice to see another forum member bring up an issue so clearly and concisely as you do!

                                               

                                              My experience with this serious issue is this: I brought it to Adobe's attention when I was beta testing CS5 for them.  I provided sample images and went to full nine yards to explain the issue.  The sense I got is that it basically fell on deaf ears.  I was even told that there is no problem.  In other words, they were right and I was wrong for thinking there's an issue.  Hmmm...  (unfortunately I saw that attitude of 'We're right and you're wrong' time and time again while beta testing for them, a real shame since ego tends to get in the way progress)

                                               

                                              I hope more and more people chime in and speak up to get this big problem fixed once and for all.  For now, any time I do a fade on a clip above another clip, I use opacity keyframes with Bezier curves.  It works but it's so much more time consuming then if crossfades simply worked the way they should (and did prior to CS5).  It's a workaround for now, but being able to hike around the canyon is no excuse for the bridge being broken, so to speak.

                                              • 21. Re: Adobe, please stop running from this issue! (GPU vs CPU anomalies / fades)
                                                shooternz Community Member

                                                Win 7 , CC7.1

                                                 

                                                I proceeded with some very basic tests and was a little surprised with what I discovered.

                                                 

                                                I set a Color Bars Clip in a Timeline and applied a Fade to the tail of it.

                                                 

                                                I opened a Reference Monitor with Waveform Monitoring and I frame by framed thru the Fade ( 25 frame transition).  Steps seemed logical and linear . ie no jumps.

                                                 

                                                CPU, GPU and Linear settings changed nothing.

                                                 

                                                Then I noticed in the monitors (including broadcast monitor) that the final frame left a "residual " image of the bars. ie not a black frame.

                                                 

                                                Then I applied an  Opacity (25 frames)  keyframed effect from the timeline  on top of the Fade Transition.

                                                 

                                                Last frame is Black. Waveform is identical (ie no change to Black Base .3).

                                                 

                                                FWIW: I was unable to Frame Grab any of this within the transitions to show this!  Why ?

                                                • 22. Re: Adobe, please stop running from this issue! (GPU vs CPU anomalies / fades)
                                                  J. Simon Community Member

                                                  Linear Color does work to fix the clunky transitions

                                                   

                                                  Turning off Linear Color does that.  I'm saying I have no issues with transitions keeping that turned on.  Their appearance doesn't bother me at all.

                                                  • 23. Re: Adobe, please stop running from this issue! (GPU vs CPU anomalies / fades)
                                                    J. Simon Community Member

                                                    In the first linked discusssion, posted by Cubase

                                                     

                                                    I only had a problem if the title was over a black clip.  Take out that black clip and there was no problem.  I still do this today.

                                                    • 24. Re: Adobe, please stop running from this issue! (GPU vs CPU anomalies / fades)
                                                      dzsokolino Community Member

                                                      Any solution to this problem?

                                                       

                                                      I have the same issue as Cubase mentioned. It is more than a year and still no solution?

                                                       

                                                      Actually my transitions were always bad an my linear colour box was always enabled. Now I turned it off and my transitions are smooth as it should. I know it does not make any sense (I am also enabling Maximum Bit Depth and Maximum Render Quality at the same time) but it works the opposite way for me.

                                                       

                                                      Yes, turning off that button also makes the opacity of layers to the same as using software only mode.

                                                       

                                                      So for me maybe keeping it off is a kind of a solution. Though it is not perfect as with Open CL enabled I see a white dot on the layers where I used dynamic link (AE title compositions).

                                                       

                                                      Help!

                                                      • 25. Re: Adobe, please stop running from this issue! (GPU vs CPU anomalies / fades)
                                                        jonny9091 Community Member

                                                        A year later and still no resolution to this very basic functionality???

                                                        Must have been super busy in making the interface unreadable. That was obviously a top priority.