36 Replies Latest reply on Nov 27, 2013 8:25 AM by BobLevine

    Pdf's history?

    Precise Formwork Level 1

      Hi all, I can design my own basic webpages with slideshows etc.

       

      Is Indesign old hat nowadays? The flexibility of CSS3 is now more adaptable and universal to all devices; e.g. Indesign I am currently working on an interactive pdf, with object states creating a navigated slideshow. When I export this as a swf it only works interactively, then obviously it is only accessible on a number of outdated devices (we all know Flash is on its way out!).

       

      What is the best way for me to work on this document. I create a few of these documents and send them out to different clients so I'm not sure if storing them on my web server is a good idea and emailing the client a link so they can view the interactive elements etc.

       

      What do you guys recommend?

        • 1. Re: Pdf's history?
          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

          What are you really asking?

          • 2. Re: Pdf's history?
            Precise Formwork Level 1

            Is creating an interactive pdf old hat as they are exported as swf files.

             

            Or is there a more modern way to create a css and html in indesign as an interactive pdf?

            • 3. Re: Pdf's history?
              John Mensinger Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              Precise Formwork wrote:

               

              Is creating an interactive pdf old hat as they are exported as swf files.

              You can build interactivity into a PDF without making a swf. More than anything else, it is animation that necessitates Flash.

              Or is there a more modern way to create a css and html in indesign as an interactive pdf?

              HTML/CSS and PDF are two different modes of delivery, as I suspect you actually know. InDesign can generate either, but not both in the same container, per se.

              • 4. Re: Pdf's history?
                Precise Formwork Level 1

                Thanks John.

                 

                How would I go about exporting my current object sequenced slideshow as a pdf? This tutorial exports as a swf file, which obviously is already an outdated method as flash is dead. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dm0aeMUPZ4U

                • 5. Re: Pdf's history?
                  Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  Your title is "PDF's History?"

                   

                  And then you want to know if creating an interactive PDF and making it a SWF is the way to go???

                   

                  SWF and PDF are two different formats.

                   

                  SWF is probably on the way out as it's Flash based, and doesn't work on all tablets, namely Apple devices... but Adobe has stopped support for Mobile Flash a while ago.

                   

                  SWF is probably better suited for onscreen presenations (or whatever else people use Flash for??? Maybe making online games or other things - I don't really know I'm not a Flash guy).

                   

                   

                  But PDF and SWF are two different things.

                   

                   

                  Interactive PDFs are perfectly fine, but are limited to a certain extent as Adobe Reader is the best mode to access the file - but again not all devices have Adobe Reader pre-installed.

                   

                  3rd Party PDF viewers, like Foxit Reader, Chrome Reader, Mac Preview and other 3rd party PDF readers do not support all the Adobe modules.

                   

                  These are generally not recommended for viewing interactive PDF.

                   

                  You should put a link to download Adobe Reader alongside the PDF to download so the user can use the best for viewing your interactive PDFs.

                   

                   

                  As for HTML 5 and CSS3 - well if you can build it in that then there's no need to go near InDesign or creating Interactive PDFs.

                   

                   

                  You can just create your HTML5 and CSS3 compliant documents and upload them to a server to be viewed there.

                   

                   

                  But - it's whatever suits.

                   

                   

                  Then again - not all browsers support everything in HTML5 or CS3 either

                   

                  And that can change over time.

                   

                   

                   

                  It really comes down to whether Interactive PDFs or HTML5/CSS3 is best for you and your users.

                   

                  Forget about SWF.

                  • 6. Re: Pdf's history?
                    Precise Formwork Level 1

                    Thanks Eugene, that is my argument!

                     

                    People are saying interactive pdf's are possible; but they are not! They are actually swf files! As discussed which are now history and will not be cross-compliant.

                    • 7. Re: Pdf's history?
                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                      Assuming you use a viewer that is actually capable of properly displaying the PDF (not, for example, Mac Preview), the PDF will look the same on any device. Is that important to you?

                      • 8. Re: Pdf's history?
                        Precise Formwork Level 1

                        Thanks Pete, cross-compatible is very important; as we send out to many different clients.

                         

                        You say the pdf will be properly displayed; but it will not! We are creating an interactive pdf (swf) - unless I'm missing something here but it seems if you want an interactive pdf, you need to export it as a swf?

                        • 9. Re: Pdf's history?
                          vectorbabe Level 1

                          Interactive PDFs are possible but there are some elements that don't work on tablets. And certainly things like rollover actions for buttons could never work on a tablet.

                           

                          Sent from my iPhone

                          So pardon the brevi

                          • 10. Re: Pdf's history?
                            Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            No the interactive PDFs are not SWF files.

                             

                            Why do you think that?

                             

                            If it's a SWF file it opens in a Flash Player.

                             

                            If it's a PDF it opens in Acrobat (or a 3rd party reader that probably isn't compliant)

                            • 11. Re: Pdf's history?
                              Precise Formwork Level 1

                              Thanks vectorbabe.

                               

                              I cannot class interactive pdfs 'working' if they do not work on tablets. Mobile browsing is to overtake desktops this year I think.

                              • 12. Re: Pdf's history?
                                Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                vectorbabe wrote:

                                 

                                Interactive PDFs are possible but there are some elements that don't work on tablets. And certainly things like rollover actions for buttons could never work on a tablet.

                                 

                                Sent from my iPhone

                                So pardon the brevi

                                 

                                Because it requires a Mouse to "Rollover" the image to make it active?

                                • 13. Re: Pdf's history?
                                  Precise Formwork Level 1

                                  Then it does not work by 2013 standards and cannot be considered a serious solution.

                                  • 14. Re: Pdf's history?
                                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                    As far as I'm concerned, designing for tablets is a complete nightmare since there are no standards, apparently.

                                     

                                    You can't have it both ways. If you want to display on a device for which there is not a PDF reader that complies with the PDF standard you can't use PDF, but then you can't guarantee that everyone sees the same thing.

                                    • 15. Re: Pdf's history?
                                      vectorbabe Level 1

                                      2013 standards for what? There are no 2013 standards for PDFs on tablets.

                                       

                                      Sent from my iPhone

                                      So pardon the brevi

                                      • 16. Re: Pdf's history?
                                        Precise Formwork Level 1

                                        Thank you all for your input, it is greatly appreciated.

                                         

                                        Given the correspondence and restrictions imposed here (by people that are much better experienced than myself) it is clear to me that pdf's are outdated and restrictive. The way forward seems to be html 5 and css3.

                                         

                                        Thanks again guys.

                                        • 17. Re: Pdf's history?
                                          vectorbabe Level 1

                                          Yes. If your finger is up in the air it can't trigger a rollover. There is no such thing as a rollover on tablets.

                                           

                                          Nothing can do rollovers on tablets.

                                           

                                          Sent from my iPhone

                                          So pardon the brevi

                                          • 18. Re: Pdf's history?
                                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                            I think you really may just be looking to start a war here. What you need to realize is that in the current state of technology there is NO single universal format (and may never be again, given how fast technology is changing).

                                            • 19. Re: Pdf's history?
                                              Precise Formwork Level 1

                                              No but you could put in some javascript or a timed effect or a jquery alternative. There are many options available in the web design and it is far more adaptive than indesign.

                                              • 20. Re: Pdf's history?
                                                John Mensinger Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                Well, for one thing, reports of Flash's demise may be somewhat premature. There are many formats that won't die of mobile device incompatibility and the resulting temporary "trend exclusion". That said, as a designer these days, there are valid reasons to avoid dependency upon the swf format.

                                                 

                                                I was about to say I can't offer specific advice with regard to your tutorial because I'm currently in an office where YouTube is blocked, (which, by the way, is very common; but no one seems to think it will mean the death of YouTube)...BUT...

                                                 

                                                Ironically, (or coincidentally?), I can view it on my mobile device, which reveals that your slideshow employs a Multi-State Object, (MSO), which in terms of PDF support, is tantamount to the aforementioned animation, and necessitates the export to swf, as opposed to simple PDF.

                                                 

                                                Again, you could construct the same slideshow without using an MSO; it's just less convenient. Instead of converting your image stack to the MSO, set each image as an individual button, which could then be shown/hidden with other button actions. With many images, that could turn into a multi-level challenge, so MSO exists for good reason, but they are all options to weigh in the dvelopment of your finished product. For my purposes, if the finished product is to be a user-controlled slideshow, there is little reason to use anything other than ordinary CSS/HTML; perhaps with some Javascript or JQuery decor.

                                                1 person found this helpful
                                                • 21. Re: Pdf's history?
                                                  Dave Merchant MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                  OK, whole heap of confusion in this thread.

                                                   

                                                  'Interactive' PDF files exported from InDesign do *not* include SWF content unless either of two things is true:

                                                   

                                                  1. You have embedded a SWF, video or sound 'media' element on the page, or;
                                                  2. You select "Page flip" mode on the PDF export window.

                                                   

                                                  Choosing 'Page flip' turns every page into a SWF object, wraps all the pages into a SWF 'slideshow' and then wraps that into a trivial one-page PDF file. The result is only a PDF in the very loosest sense of the word, and it's frankly a terrible idea. It made some sense when it was first proposed (when Adobe Reader on desktops was the default tool for consuming PDFs and Flash Player was built into it by default) but neither of those is true anymore. You can't print it, search it, read it out loud, edit it, view it on mobile...

                                                   

                                                  Other 'interactive' features such as button states, links, layers, form fields, etc. are natively supported in the ISO PDF standard. It's true that on mobile and third-party software most of them don't work, but that's nothing to do with Flash.

                                                   

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  Eugene Tyson wrote:

                                                   

                                                  No the interactive PDFs are not SWF files.

                                                   

                                                  Why do you think that?

                                                   

                                                  If it's a SWF file it opens in a Flash Player.

                                                   

                                                  If it's a PDF it opens in Acrobat (or a 3rd party reader that probably isn't compliant)

                                                  • 22. Re: Pdf's history?
                                                    BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                    Are you talking about Page Turn? If so, that will not convert a PDF to

                                                    SWF. It will be ignored when exporting to PDF.

                                                     

                                                    The only way to get that page turn is to export to SWF and place that

                                                    into an empty PDF.

                                                    • 23. Re: Pdf's history?
                                                      Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                      Precise Formwork wrote:

                                                       

                                                      Thank you all for your input, it is greatly appreciated.

                                                       

                                                      Given the correspondence and restrictions imposed here (by people that are much better experienced than myself) it is clear to me that pdf's are outdated and restrictive. The way forward seems to be html 5 and css3.

                                                       

                                                      Thanks again guys.

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      Again - PDFS and HTML 5 are two very different things.

                                                       

                                                      You can build your slideshow using HTML5 if you want to.

                                                       

                                                      You can build it with PDF.

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      They are two different things using different ways to view it.

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      Considering one outdated over the other is not the right answer.

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      Interactive PDFs are very good, as is HTML5, but it depends on your end use.

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      What will you do when HTML6 and CSS4 come out?

                                                      • 24. Re: Pdf's history?
                                                        Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                        Precise Formwork wrote:

                                                         

                                                        No but you could put in some javascript or a timed effect or a jquery alternative. There are many options available in the web design and it is far more adaptive than indesign.

                                                         

                                                        What makes you think all devices will support javascript, or jqueries or will in the future?

                                                         

                                                        Web Design and InDesign are two very different things.

                                                         

                                                         

                                                        InDesign is a professional layout tool for printing and has only recently started to port options to export items to the Web - ebooks, interactive pdfs, and other things.

                                                         

                                                        It's not a replacement or for responsive web design by any means.

                                                        • 25. Re: Pdf's history?
                                                          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                          Precise Formwork wrote:

                                                           

                                                          There are many options available in the web design and it is far more adaptive than indesign.

                                                          InDesign was developed as a page layout tool for PRINT. There's a lot of stuff getting shoehorned into it to make it do stuff that can be output on screens, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's the best application to create that sort of content (it remains the best for print, though, as far as I'm concerned). Photoshop can do a lot of vector stuff, but would you choose it instead of Ilustrator? Is it the best tool for 3D?

                                                           

                                                          The tools you use to create the content are completely separate from the question of which format is appropriate for presentation as long as the tools you choose are capable of creating waht you need. If they aren't, then it's time to switch tools.

                                                          • 26. Re: Pdf's history?
                                                            Precise Formwork Level 1

                                                            Convert to HTML6 and CSS4, one has to adapt; or one can become extinct!

                                                             

                                                            How do you build a slideshow in pdf Eugene? You keep saying it but you are not advising. I have posted the tutorial; which is redundant as you need to export to a swf as it uses buttons.

                                                             

                                                            I'd love to hear your suggestions, or how you have successfully created an interactive pdf?

                                                             

                                                            When I say interactive pdf - I mean one that works over a wide variety of devices and is capable of displaying a slideshow.

                                                             

                                                            Regards

                                                            • 27. Re: Pdf's history?
                                                              John Mensinger Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                              'Interactive' PDF files exported from InDesign do *not* include SWF content unless either of two things is true:

                                                               

                                                              1. You have embedded a SWF, video or sound 'media' element on the page, or;
                                                              2. You select "Page flip" mode on the PDF export window.

                                                              3. If your design includes a Multi State Object; (doesn't mandate SWF, but does rule out PDF)

                                                              • 28. Re: Pdf's history?
                                                                Precise Formwork Level 1

                                                                Thanks John.

                                                                 

                                                                Therefore Eugene's:

                                                                 

                                                                'You can build your slideshow using HTML5 if you want to.

                                                                 

                                                                You can build it with PDF.

                                                                 

                                                                They are two different things using different ways to view it. '

                                                                 

                                                                Is clearly nonsense !

                                                                • 29. Re: Pdf's history?
                                                                  John Mensinger Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                  Precise Formwork wrote:

                                                                   

                                                                  ...you need to export to a swf as it uses buttons.

                                                                  PDF supports InDesign buttons. It's the Multi State Object in your design that forces export to SWF. A slideshow can be constructed using only simple buttons (not MSO) and exported to PDF.

                                                                  • 30. Re: Pdf's history?
                                                                    BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                    Let's get something clear here. Using SWF features and exporting to PDF

                                                                    will not force anything. Those features (page turn, MSOs, animations)

                                                                    will be completely ignored.

                                                                     

                                                                    BTW, MSO is not really SWF only. They work great in DPS.

                                                                    • 31. Re: Pdf's history?
                                                                      Precise Formwork Level 1

                                                                      DPS? I see an option to export EPS; is that what you mean?

                                                                       

                                                                      Can't see that filetype being too useful to a lot of users? Just exported as an EPS and does not work.

                                                                       

                                                                      John how do you create a simple buttoned slideshow? Surely one needs to have the multi state object controlled by the buttons.

                                                                      • 32. Re: Pdf's history?
                                                                        John Mensinger Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                        Bob Levine wrote:

                                                                         

                                                                        Using SWF features and exporting to PDF

                                                                        will not force anything. Those features (page turn, MSOs, animations)

                                                                        will be completely ignored.

                                                                        Yes, perhaps "force" was a poor choice of words, but, in order to render those features operational, you are forced to not export as PDF.

                                                                        BTW, MSO is not really SWF only. They work great in DPS.

                                                                        Right, which is why I said "rules out PDF"

                                                                        1 person found this helpful
                                                                        • 33. Re: Pdf's history?
                                                                          John Mensinger Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                          I'll let Bob answer for DPS...it's not EPS.

                                                                           

                                                                          I touched on MSO-less slideshow possibilities in post #20.

                                                                          1 person found this helpful
                                                                          • 34. Re: Pdf's history?
                                                                            Precise Formwork Level 1

                                                                            Thanks John, I see; treat them each as buttons; cunning .

                                                                            • 35. Re: Pdf's history?
                                                                              Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                              If you want help then that's fine.

                                                                               

                                                                              Your question wasn't looking for direction in accomplishing your task.

                                                                               

                                                                              If you want help from me then don't insult me.

                                                                              • 36. Re: Pdf's history?
                                                                                BobLevine MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                                DPS: Digital Publishing Suite.