14 Replies Latest reply on Feb 11, 2014 10:51 AM by JFPhoton

    Upgrading from CS5.5 to CC

    Eliran S

      Hi all,

       

      I would like to upgrade my system, and I would like to hear your thoughts as for how should I spend the money.

      I'm working with AVCHD footage, dslr, etc.

      The work is being done with adobe premiere pro only, and the movies are 40-60 minutes long with a lot of color correction and effects (both premiere's and 3rd party).

       

      The current set up is as follows:

      I7 2600k 3.4 ghz (No OC)

      P8z68 v pro MB

      16gm RAM

      gtx 560 ti graphic card

      OS is on 7200 rpm WD Black,

      2*0.5 WD black in raid 0 (work, renders),

      2TB for storage.

       

      Current situation is, editing with this rig is slow.. I can't even process AVCHD footage right, so what I'm doing is converting it to pal format, working and then converting it back to original files.

      My guess is that the graphic card is the weak link and maybe the lack of SSD for system.

       

      I would love to hear your thoughts about it, should I get a gtx 780 / 780 ti card? is it an over kill? what about the ssd for os? do you recommend other things to focus on?

      I would also like to move to upgrade to adobe CC, I understand it is superior then the 5.5.

       

      Regards,

      Eliran.

        • 1. Re: Upgrading from CS5.5 to CC
          cc_merchant Level 4

          Read Harm's articles on disk setup, raids, balanced systems and much more here: Tweakers Page

          • 2. Re: Upgrading from CS5.5 to CC
            Eliran S Level 1

            Thanks,

             

            I have read some of the information prior posting the above, but I see there is much more to read in the guide (done reading it)

            I'm looking at the balanced system part; I see that according to the table, I should do the following:

            Buying an extra 16gb of ram, over clock the cpu and go for 660 Ti, and then I will have a balanced System for the i7 2600k 4 core Hyper Threading cpu I got.

            The problem is, I'm not sure I want to take the risk of OC'ing the cpu.

            Second, what about using SSD for the OS?

            Third, I'm afraid it won't be sufficient, perhaps I'm thinking too much ahead, but I would rather take a strong graphic card and when the time is right, upgrade my cpu/mobo (your thoughts?).

            Fourth, according to the table, Editing AVCHD footage is best done with 6 cores, and not 4 cores. Will the end result will be sufficient after all the changes?

            All the information got me more confused.

             

            Regards,

            Eliran.

            • 3. Re: Upgrading from CS5.5 to CC
              JEShort01 Level 4

              Eliran,

               

              Regarding OC'ing your current i7-2600k - that would help some and it is not dangerous if all the following are met: you have a good cpu cooler, you use a cpu temperature monitoring tool to insure that during a cpu stress test your cores get no higher than around 75 deg. C, you read one of the many OC'ing for beginners guides on the internet.

               

              Regarding no SSD for OS/programs - while I have been praising SSDs here for a longer time than some others at the forum for the C:\ drive, they make your PC feel more responsive for many things, but that really does not help Premiere Pro performance hardly at all.

               

              Regarding your video card - your current card, a GTX 560 Ti, sounds like a pretty good match for the rest of your system. If you really wanted or needed to pump up your DVD render output speed (not using Adobe Media Encoder, it is slow unless you have CC) you could put in more GPU firepower, but I do not get the sense that is where you are feeling bottlenecked now.

               

              Regarding editing AVCHD footage, one of the most important things to do for speed is to make sure your workflow is fully multi-core compliant. If I had to guess, your third party color correction, filters, etc. may be single-threaded. So, instead of using your current 4 cores + 4 hyperthreads for you work, you may only be able to utilize 1! Think of the math, running with one core vs. a different workflow and/or software version that could utilize all 8 cores. Yes, that could be a real game changer! I'm not totally up to speed with the new color grading features in CC, but from the few online videos I've watched demo'ing them, I think that Adobe is finally producing some grading tools that will do what most people need most of the time and at warp speed compared with Red Bullet, Colorista, etc. single-thread only workflows. You NEED to monitor Task Manager performance tab during the various steps of your workflow: if all cpu cores are being used when the going gets slow, you are "CPU bound". If however, only a fraction of your CPU bank is being utilized, say around 1/8th or a bit more, then you most likely have something in your workflow that is preventing your full suite of cores from being used.

               

              Oh, one more thing regarding sluggish behaviour with AVCHD. There are some serious issues discussed at great length on the Adobe Premiere Pro forum where certain media types cause timeline sluggishness (not this hardware sub-section). I don't know all of the details, but this could be a factor for your situation as well.

               

              Hard drives - your drive setup is OK. If any array is over 75% full and/or you do not defrag your drives regularly, then that can be a speed bottleneck too.

               

              Finally, what should you do to "upgrade" your hardware at this time? My vote would be save your money until you can do a major upgrade and replace your motherboard (w/ x79), your cpu (w/ i7-4930k), RAM (certified for new MB w/ 1600MHz speed and 32GB total), and a good cpu cooler. The total cost for this would be around $1000 US and your current drives and GTX 560 Ti could all be reused with the new build.

               

              Regards,

               

              Jim

              • 4. Re: Upgrading from CS5.5 to CC
                Eliran S Level 1

                Jim,

                 

                Thank you very much for a VERY elaborate answer.

                I think for the first step, I'll Try to see how the CPU is being handled while editing as you suggested.

                Second step will be to read more info regarding AVCHD editing in the forum, and see if I missed something.

                Third, upgrading to Adobe Premiere CC, and see if things run smoother.

                 

                As for the bottle neck, Editing AVCHD is a pain. It just isn't possible, nor editing DSLR footage with the current setup (even without the 3rd party codecs).

                That what led me to think upgrading the GPU will help tremendously.

                Anyway I really appreciate your answer, and if you, or anyone else got more to add, I'm all ears.

                 

                Regards,

                Eliran.

                • 5. Re: Upgrading from CS5.5 to CC
                  ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                  The performance with AVCHD in CC is much better than CS5.5. The system would vastly improve just from that upgrade. Beyond that I would suggest 32GB of ram and a 760GTX or 660Ti card. As long as your drives are under 60% capacity they should be fine for the media. The main benefit to an SSD for any operation is latency. The Latency on SSD drives is a fraction of what it is on mechanical drives. Switching to an SSD drive for the OS is never a bad upgrade for the user experience. That is something I would always suggest.

                   

                  Eric

                  ADK

                  • 6. Re: Upgrading from CS5.5 to CC
                    Eliran S Level 1

                    Eric,

                     

                    Thanks for replying,

                    What you wrote was my initial hunch, but Jim's reply threw me off a little bit.

                    What I'm afraid of is, investing the money and not seeing the difference I need.

                    Your recommendation makes sense, what are your takes on OC'ing my CPU? will it be sufficient without it?

                     

                    Thanks, I really appreciate the help,

                    Eliran.

                    • 7. Re: Upgrading from CS5.5 to CC
                      JEShort01 Level 4

                      Eliran,

                       

                      Did you do any of the testing and analysis of your current workflow yet? (your steps 1 and 2 in your #4 post above)

                       

                      If not, you really should before you start putting money towards either hardware or software upgrades.

                       

                      Also, I don't see how CC would speed up your workflow if the slowdown is actually caused by a non-Adobe component of your workflow.

                       

                      Regards,

                       

                      Jim

                      • 8. Re: Upgrading from CS5.5 to CC
                        ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                        OCing the 2600K will definitely help performance. Heat and OC settings are your 1 challenge. If you stay 4.5GHz or less you should not have much of a problem if you have a decent CPU cooler.


                        Eric

                        ADK

                        • 9. Re: Upgrading from CS5.5 to CC
                          Eliran S Level 1

                          Hi all,

                           

                          Small update, Went through the entire system and cleaned it well (programs, disk, etc.).

                          Upgraded to adobe cc, MUCH better response.

                          I'm now able to edit some of the HD material, but not all.

                          I still got problems with MTS being laggy and footage from GOPRO cameras.

                          I reviewed the computer stats under work, the CPU as it seems, is not my bottle neck while editing, nor is the memory that was with reasonable boundaries.

                          I was really locked on buying a new video card, but then came to realize that my MB supports only PCI 2.

                          Which means, now I have to buy a new MB as well.

                          Any suggestions? maybe the asus p8z77 v / v-pro ?

                          I don't like the idea of spending cash on a MB that suits my cpu, and in a year or two I'll need to replace them both.

                           

                          I really appreciate all your help so far.

                           

                          Regards,

                          Eliran.

                          • 10. Re: Upgrading from CS5.5 to CC
                            Bill Gehrke Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            Eliran S wrote:

                             

                            Thanks,

                             

                            Third, I'm afraid it won't be sufficient, perhaps I'm thinking too much ahead, but I would rather take a strong graphic card and when the time is right, upgrade my cpu/mobo (your thoughts?).

                            Well that is a very practical thought, but before you do take a look at your GPU usage with GPU-Z when you are encoding and see how much usage your GPU provides here is an example.

                            GPU-Z sample.jpg

                            Using a better GPU will slighty shorten the time that your GPU is at full usage.  This plot happens to be from my laptop that I am working with right now.

                             

                            I do not have any problem with editing my Sony AVCHD clips with my i7-2600K which is slightly overclocked.  I have lived with Premiere 5.5 and now 6.

                             

                            If you have 5.5 still installed you might try our PPBM5.5 benchmark.  We no longer update that site but you still can run that benchmark and compare your results to those you see posted to see how well your computer performs.

                            • 11. Re: Upgrading from CS5.5 to CC
                              ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                              I wouldnt bother with a new board unless you went to Haswell and Z87. Try converting the Go Pro to Cineform and see how your system handles then.

                               

                              Eric

                              ADK

                              • 12. Re: Upgrading from CS5.5 to CC
                                JFPhoton Level 3

                                .....especially with your current system, I "second the nomination by Eric" to try and use the FREE  Cineform codec, now being offered by Go Pro on their site. I have thoroughly tested it on my i7 laptop and find it works MUCH better than the also free 32 bit Avid DNxD .MOV codec, as an intermediate "visually lossless" codec with PPro. I believe the Cineform is running at 64 bit and multithreaded. On my laptop , I was able to edit 3 to 4 tracks of 1080p Cineform SMOOTHLY while ADDITIONALLY having as many "GPU accelerated effects" on each track as the video card could handle......until the GPU was saturated at 100% from the effects....and the CPU was STILL showing a good working level....WELL below 100% on all cores !! Plus no need to render previews !

                                    Editing AVCHD NATIVELY can be easily done, but, it requires a very strong and balanced system. If your footage is from a Canon DSLR , the video might be the DREADED .MOV "Quirktime" codec, which "triggers" the 32bit "Quick Time Importer Process" within Premiere Pro. As PPro is fully 64 bit, these Canon mov files can REALLY choke your machine as the whole editing process becomes "crippled" by the 32 bit process...which I have read ALSO limits memory usage to 4 GB while "dealing" with this 32 bit problem.  I think starting with PPro 6.0 and now with C Cloud, something has been done to help that problem...I know editing the Canon .movs on MY i7 laptop can be done....but, it is sluggish when using multiple tracks, or, adding effects. It is MUCH easier to  use clips transcoded to Cineform.

                                    Finally, I hope Eric can give his insight here......the upcoming Haswell E, ( enthusiast) CPU should be out before the end of the year. It APPEARS to have many improved features that will significantly improve performance for PPro. It will have : minimum 6 cores, PLUS an 8 core version !!!...(16 threads !!!)....a new "chipset" allowing 10 onboard 6 Gb/sec. SATA III ports, native PCI generation 3 with many lanes, AND quad channel memory !!!  My question would be, considering that the current Haswell CPU runs HOT, and cannot be massively overclocked.....will the "E" variant ALSO run as hot and perhaps make it not that much better than the current 4930 K CPU ??? Or, am I WRONG ???

                                 

                                Should anyone wanting to build a new desktop, ( like maybe the O P here and ME ), WAIT for this new chip, INSTEAD of using the 4930K ?? With TEN SATA III ports, pairs of SSDs in RAID 0 could eliminate an expensive RAID card and HDD array, possibly... AND plenty of PCI room for more than one GPU......what do you think Eric ??

                                • 13. Re: Upgrading from CS5.5 to CC
                                  ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                  So far the initial testing of Haswell E that I have seen has shown 15% improvement or more over the current Ive-E platform. I would say the largest part of that is likely DDR4 since ram bandwidth is the biggest bottleneck right now with the amount of data moving through the pipeline especially with GPU acceleration. PCI-E Gen 3 is still greater bandwidth than most people use with their GPU's although that may change as GPU acceleration starts to really scale across multiple GPU's efficiently. I dont really expect the Sata channels to really improve performance until 12Gbs becomes predominant on the onboard controllers. Then I believe we will really see more than latency performance gains with SSD drives in raids. The heat I will wait to see on. Ivy Desktop was significantly hotter than SB desktop yet Ivy-E has been significantly cooler than SB-E. As to why that is different when the core architecture is suppose to be the same only Intel knows. I suspect a few things but wont say since I am not sure.

                                   

                                  Waiting till HW-E to release though is really dependant on the client's timeframes, workflows, and current hardware platforms. I would not expect this till Q4 and probably later in Q4 even though Intel currently say end of Q3 at earliest. They have not really sold the numbers on the V2 Xeons that they expected and that may delay this launch even into Q1 of next year. I hope to go to the Big Intel conference this year and maybe get some info as to what the expectations really are. As of now I would definitely consider getting Ivy-E still if your hardware is older than SB-E and your workflow is moving beyond 1080P. Also if the AE workload is increasing then you want to. There are many things that can be done with hardware investment now even if you upgrade or get a new system when HW-E releases. Having a dedicated render system especially with 4K or AE removes a tremendous time sync on the main edit system and lowers the pressure of deadlines. Then there is the industry hardware failure rate. No matter what we configurators do the chance of hardware failure is there. If such a failure critically effects your business then having a backup system is critical.

                                   

                                  Eric

                                  ADK

                                  • 14. Re: Upgrading from CS5.5 to CC
                                    JFPhoton Level 3

                                    Thank you for your insightful reply !! I see LSI now has a number of 12Gb/sec controllers out there....and the "enterprise" market is getting ready to use 12Gb/sec. SSDs.  It seems the new technology arrives at such a fast pace that one is reluctant  to "stand still" and commit to what is currently available....for fear of "instant obsolesence ' !!!...

                                     

                                    Your suggestion of a quality "backup system" is a very good idea ! Thanks again !