1 2 Previous Next 40 Replies Latest reply on Dec 3, 2013 8:36 AM by bbillef48

    Rich strong Grey  SOS

    bbillef48 Level 1

      Hello I've read a lot of things about grey and black. I want to print a business card. backcolor will be orange M 50 Y100

      and the main stripe will be a dark gray. I don't know what to use for a good grey.


      I was thinking something like this : C70 M64 Y65 K70

       

      what you think? I want to avoid a faded gray on a business card.

        • 1. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
          bbillef48 Level 1

          really ? ? no one knows? :/

          • 2. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

            Does it look good to you?

            • 3. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
              bbillef48 Level 1

              The problem is can't know. The printing will be in another country and is low budget project. It's just a business card but I don't want to mess this.

               

              In screen it looks good. it looks vibrant stong grey. But  I have no experience using grey color in print. so I would like someone to tell me what should I do . the background is orange M50 Y100 and there is a bug stripe of grey. I dont want the grey to look blueish or have a magenda background color.. or I don't know what..
              is this grey good?

              C70 M64 Y65 K70

              • 4. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                It seems a bit dark to me, but I have no idea what you want. This is a very subjective choice.

                 

                Is your monitor profiled and calibrated? Do you have the output profile for the overseas printer? Without those things there's really no way to to make a judgement.

                1 person found this helpful
                • 5. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                  bbillef48 Level 1

                  I want it dark. ( i hope you placed the background color also) - there only two colors. ABout the monitor I work on a laptop so there is no much to calibrate. Even though the colors look good but when it comes to print even a calibrated monitor can't tell how the cmyk is. So that's why I asked because you probably have printed a dark grey so I guess  perhaps you know some good value

                   

                  Do you believe from your experience that this will be grey or more blue or more magenda?

                  • 6. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                    I did do the background as well.

                     

                    To be truthful, color is not my strongest ability -- my eyes are pretty old at this point. I would say it's a bit towards the brown, like unsweetened cooking chocolate, on my monitor, using the GRACol space.

                     

                    Is there a reason, for a two-color job, that you are not using spot colors instead of CMYK? Is it printing digital, or on a press?

                    • 7. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                      bbillef48 Level 1

                      it will be on a press - offset . you know business cards. If you export this to pdf it looks good though :/
                      think it's good as it is?

                      • 8. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                        Without knowing the output progfile there's no way to know what the CMYK numbers will look like. If it's going on a press, Spot colors might be appropriate (though they might end up costing more for press washup, but It's pretty hard to believe anyone would run business cards on a 4-color press unless they gang them with other jobs).

                         

                        Pantone 144 is a pretty good match for your background, and perhaps Pantone Black 3 at around 94% for a good match on the gray, but again, it's a judgement call. Do you have acess to swatch books?

                         

                        And the paper stock wil make a lot of difference in the appearance -- coated stock will be brighter/darker than typical uncoated business card stock.

                         

                        Can you get samples from this printer? Are you forced to use someone overseas?

                        • 9. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                          bbillef48 Level 1

                          1. all my clients are overseas.

                          2. I never used spot colors cuz no one of my clients is willing to pay more than 20 dollars / per 1000 cards. Everyone us using CMYK.
                          I've used CMYK with very good results. never had a problem with colors. But I never used grey. I don't know what to do.

                           

                          with such values in my grey do I have to worry if it get;s totally black or being washed?  Because I really don't want it to be black.

                          • 10. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                            Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            @bbillef48 – I guess you have to provide a PDF file for the printing services. They have to give you some information about the specific color space and the required icc profile.

                             

                            Only if you can say under what printing conditions this business card will be printed (usually a certified process), we could assist any further…

                             

                            Uwe

                            • 11. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              Even though the colors look good but when it comes to print even a calibrated monitor can't tell how the cmyk is. So that's why I asked because you probably have printed a dark grey so I guess  perhaps you know some good value

                               

                              If the display of a neutral CMYK color is wrong then either the monitor profile, CMYK profile or both are wrong. No one can tell you whether your gray value is correct because, besides the obvious subjective problem, same CMYK values print differently under different press conditions—that's what the CMYK profile is for.

                               

                              At $20 per 1000 surely it would be worth running some cards as a proof.

                              • 12. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                bbillef48 Level 1

                                Not always. Most of people in US prefer to order their cards in Turkey for like 3-4 dollars per 1000 cards. So they believe that 20 dollars are too much.

                                 

                                May I ask what would be a neutral CMY for grey? (just the CMY not the K)  I've heard that M and Y equal values wont work because of the different dencity of the inks.

                                • 13. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  Do you believe from your experience that this will be grey or more blue or more magenda?

                                  If you are looking for a neutral gray why use 4-color—I wouldn't expect a $20 card printer will have consistent gray balance. Why not 0|0|0|85 black?

                                  • 14. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                    bbillef48 Level 1

                                    From my experience a black set at 100K it will look like 87 to 90%  screen-black. So a grey with only K values I guess it will look dull and bright. Not strong not vibrant. But I've never used grey in any printable concept so I have no idea what to expect.  And this is not about the money tha tthe client will spent. This is about how proffesional will the output look. I can't ask the ICC profle cuz there is no contact with the printer guy nor I have excatly a calibrated monitor since I am working on a laptop and with several printer guys around the world. So the output varies.

                                     

                                    So I changed a bit the values to C70 M64 Y65 K65 to brightened a bit the colors. But I am not sure.. it looks like a very very kinda dark chocolate colors. kinda brown but not brown. .So I don't how this will look when printed.
                                    Have you ever ptinted a dark grey in front of warm colors? what did you put?

                                    • 15. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      May I ask what would be a neutral CMY for grey? (just the CMY not the K)  I've heard that M and Y equal values wont work because of the different dencity of the inks.

                                      On most presses equal amounts of CMY print brown, so a typical neutral conversion has equal parts of M&Y with around 15% (relative) extra cyan. So GraCOL converts 50% grayscale to something like 43|34|34|7, 90% converts to 71|62|62|63

                                      1 person found this helpful
                                      • 16. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                        bbillef48 wrote:

                                         

                                        Not always. Most of people in US prefer to order their cards in Turkey for like 3-4 dollars per 1000 cards.

                                        I find that hard to believe, especially if they care about the color.

                                         

                                        Do you know the rules of printing:

                                         

                                        You can get it fast, or you get it cheap, and you can get it with accurate color, but you cannot get all three together.

                                        • 17. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                          From my experience a black set at 100K it will look like 87 to 90%  screen-black.

                                           

                                          That really depends on how much black is being run on press and whether the paper is coated or uncoated. Cheap online card printers are very inconsistent, so neutrality will be more about luck than a CMY mix

                                           

                                          This is about how proffesional will the output look

                                           

                                          If you want to be professional get a proof and include it in the cost.

                                          • 18. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                            bbillef48 Level 1

                                            So GraCOL converts 50% grayscale to something like 43|34|34|7, 90% converts to 71|62|62|63

                                            So I guess  70|62|62|65 will be ok? It wont go to something like rich black isn't it? ..  think so

                                             

                                            this is something I can't decide. cuz all my clients are overseas. I have to see the proof with my own eyes to decide what changes should be made.

                                            • 19. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                              bbillef48 Level 1

                                              I care .. not them .. It's about how good I want to be when it comes to quality even if sometimes I have to put double effort for something really cheap.

                                              bbillef48 wrote:

                                               

                                              Not always. Most of people in US prefer to order their cards in Turkey for like 3-4 dollars per 1000 cards.

                                              I find that hard to believe, especially if they care about the color.

                                               

                                              Do you know the rules of printing:

                                               

                                              You can get it fast, or you get it cheap, and you can get it with accurate color, but you cannot get all three together.

                                               

                                              • 20. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                                Danny Whitehead. Level 4

                                                We're talking about greys, not blacks, where you add CMY to deepen them. There are reasons to add CMY to greys, but you have to know the printing conditions to know how they affect warmth or coolness of the grey. With no clue about the printing conditons, and working on a laptop, the safest bet would probably be to use a percentage of K. Even them you're still in the dark about how dark it will print, because it will be greatly affected by dot gain.

                                                 

                                                A 'vibrant' grey sounds like an oxymoron to me. They're dull by nature.

                                                • 21. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                                  bbillef48 Level 1

                                                  I mean only K not CMY at all. I did that once. I thought that 100K will look good but it didn't .

                                                  From my experience a black set at 100K it will look like 87 to 90%  screen-black.

                                                   

                                                  That really depends on how much black is being run on press and whether the paper is coated or uncoated. Cheap online card printers are very inconsistent, so neutrality will be more about luck than a CMY mix

                                                   

                                                  • 22. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                                    bbillef48 Level 1

                                                    Danny   , grey comes into a lot of flavors, and that depends on the background color mostly. I have a warm background (orange) so grey can't be "cool". grey must smoothly blends with orange in a way that will allow each color to "show" good.

                                                    • 23. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                      I did that once

                                                       

                                                      That's the reason there's not a correct answer to your question, color and values change depending on the press conditions. With online printers you can't even be sure they will print the values in your file.

                                                      • 24. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                                        bbillef48 Level 1

                                                        Anyway.. as an ending word do you believe that 70 62 62 65 would ever have a rich black output?

                                                        also from your experience wokring with more than one I guess printer guys this 70 62 62 65 could be considered as a "brownie"* grey? (too brown  perhaps?)

                                                         

                                                        I mean the color not the cake

                                                         

                                                        Thank you all for your efforts

                                                        • 25. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                                          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                          bbillef48 wrote:

                                                           

                                                          I care .. not them .. It's about how good I want to be when it comes to quality even if sometimes I have to put double effort for something really cheap.

                                                          Well perhaps it would be worth your while to send the job as you think it should be and absorb the cost (which you say is only a dollar or two) if it isn't right. The only way you're really going to get some sort of clue is to see some output from this printer. If you don't like what you get, at least you'll know what direction you need to move.

                                                          • 26. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                                            bbillef48 Level 1

                                                            it's not possieble to see the outpout. all my clients are overseas. like 14 to 18 hours away from me .

                                                            • 27. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                                              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                              Here, on my monitor that hasn't been recalibated in a month, 70 62 62 65 is dead nuetral in GRACol and is indistinguishable on screen form 93.25% K, so my guess is it will end up looking pretty much like you just used 100% K.

                                                              • 28. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                                                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                70 62 62 65 could be considered as a "brownie"* grey? (too brown  perhaps?)

                                                                 

                                                                With the extra cyan you expect it to approach neutral—neither warm or cool—but the press could  run low on magenta and you'd get a green cast.

                                                                 

                                                                Do you even know if the printer will output your values? I've run into low end printers who force conversions into their CMYK space at output.

                                                                • 29. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                                                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                                  The best you can do, then, is make sure you get an output profile from the printer and set it as the working space in ID, then cross your fingers the printer acutally is sticking to the profile and is consistent.

                                                                  • 30. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                                                    bbillef48 Level 1

                                                                    that black? 100K is black. Will it look that black? :/ pfff

                                                                    • 31. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                                                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                      Your design depends on precise color management, but you can't do that without communication with the printer. The alternative is a design that doesn't fail if the expected color isn't perfect.

                                                                      • 32. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                                                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                                        What does it look like on your screen? Here its a match for 93.25%, and on uncoated stock that might as well be 100%. Is your Appearance of Black preference set to Display All Blacks Accurately? It should be if you want to make judgements.

                                                                        • 33. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                                                          Danny Whitehead. Level 4

                                                                          On my  monitor, in the FOGRA39 space, it looks like a weak, slightly warm black, like you might expect 100K to look in newsprint.

                                                                          • 34. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                                                            bbillef48 Level 1

                                                                            Yes blacks are accurately displayed .  So I think that 62|58|58|70 will do better .. a bit more bright. when printed / coated it will be a bit more darker but defnitely not rich black .. ( I think)

                                                                            • 35. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                                                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                              Yes blacks are accurately displayed.

                                                                               

                                                                              There's also the Color Setting's Use Black Point Compensation in addition to the profile—coated vs. uncoated—which all interact with the soft proof.

                                                                              • 36. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                                                                Danny Whitehead. Level 4

                                                                                bbillef48 wrote:

                                                                                 

                                                                                So I think that 62|58|58|70 will do better .. a bit more bright.

                                                                                That just looks a little redder than the last value, and no 'brighter' (I'd say paler was a better term for greys). Still very nearly black.

                                                                                • 37. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                                                                  bbillef48 Level 1

                                                                                  what kind of black you mean? because the only actual black in print is the rich black . everything else is grey. So if you mean 100%K thats grey not black when printed.

                                                                                  • 38. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                                                                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                                                    bbillef48 wrote:

                                                                                     

                                                                                    what kind of black you mean? because the only actual black in print is the rich black . everything else is grey. So if you mean 100%K thats grey not black when printed.

                                                                                    I think most of us think there is black (0|0|0|100) and then there is Rich Black, which is darker, and has no set defintion.

                                                                                     

                                                                                    In monchrome printing, 100%K is Black and it only appears "less black" when you have a rich black for comparison.

                                                                                    • 39. Re: Rich strong Grey  SOS
                                                                                      Danny Whitehead. Level 4

                                                                                      I mean black ink, or a grey so dark, the layman would call it black. If you really want to be scientific, there's no such thing as black in print except in a situation where there is no light whatsoever, in which case the paper would be black too.

                                                                                       

                                                                                      For someone in need of 'SOS' advice, you seem rather reluctant to take it.

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