21 Replies Latest reply on Dec 9, 2013 12:54 PM by head spin

    Where to find Quality/Bitrate setting for imported AVI DURING IMPORT from VHS tape

    head spin

           I had trouble phrasing this question, so by way of clarification I am saving/storing old vhs tapes to AVI for editing at a later date. I am importing them through a PYRO A/V link converter and firewire into Premiere Elements 9. I notice the save rate is approximately 13GB/hr. I would like to up the save rate somewhat to see if the quality improves, but dont know if there is a setting either in the project presets or the capture screen to do this.

           I read somewhere to plan on a 20GB/hr save rate for AVI. Recently I had a 11 minute tape to convert to DVD. I had an ION USB Video converter (PowerDirector 8 DE, USB into my netbook, then AVI into my desktop) which i played with, as well as importing through my PYRO (into my desktop). The ION had a high quality AVI save rate which I used and when I compared the two I noticed the ION saved at 60GB/hr. WHOA!!! overkill. But the playback quality in PE9 was better with the ION AVI.

           In other words I would like to preset the AVI to a higher import bitrate BEFORE I start importing a tape. Try different settings between 15-20 GB/hr. I realize at a certain point there will be no difference because I am dealing with lower quality to begin with. Also the trade off in storage on hard drives. Why waste space when there is no quality difference. I just realized this brings up one more question for export to AVI from PE9 after done trimming or editing. I know there are various settings for making a DVD and whatever quality you want, but are there settings for saving the AVI at the same bitrate it was imported?

        • 1. Re: Where to find Quality/Bitrate setting for imported AVI DURING IMPORT from VHS tape
          Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

          If you've saved your video as DV-AVIs, which (with the Pyro) you've most certainly done, you've already got them at the ideal format and quality rate for standard definition DV (which is already better resolution than VHS).

           

          DV-AVIs are the ideal standard definition format for editing digital video.

          • 2. Re: Where to find Quality/Bitrate setting for imported AVI DURING IMPORT from VHS tape
            head spin Level 1

            Thank you Steve, but if I understand correctly you are referring to exporting? or saving them after I have already brought them into Premiere Elements. I am wanting to set an import rate before I even start capturing the video. Various other programs have the option of a quality setting for import, either as Mpeg or AVI. Is PE9 a set rate and I can't alter that?

            • 3. Re: Where to find Quality/Bitrate setting for imported AVI DURING IMPORT from VHS tape
              Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

              No, I'm talking about capture with your Pyro. You want to capture DV-AVIs over a FireWire connection, and that's exactly what the Pyro will do.

              • 4. Re: Where to find Quality/Bitrate setting for imported AVI DURING IMPORT from VHS tape
                head spin Level 1

                Right. Thank you. I have been doing that for some time but I didn't realize that the bitrate of the captured video was at 13GB/hr PE9. I used GSpot to check the video saved by PE9 and also the video saved by the ION video converter, or simple math 2.8GB for 11 min VHS tape PE9, and 10.8GB through USB for the ION converter. I want to up the capture rate through the pyro into PE9. I cant believe the Pyro or firewire would limit to slower than usb speeds. Thats why I was hoping for a capture quality setting in PE9

                • 5. Re: Where to find Quality/Bitrate setting for imported AVI DURING IMPORT from VHS tape
                  Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                  Don't get confused by the numbers. The Pyro is giving you the best digitizing possible from your VHS -- and will give you the best results when you edit it.

                  • 6. Re: Where to find Quality/Bitrate setting for imported AVI DURING IMPORT from VHS tape
                    head spin Level 1

                    Steve,

                         Thank you for your replies. I am appreciative of the members of this forum and the time they spend helping others. And even those on other forums who do the same. Must be a big headache sometimes

                         This was all going to be experimental. Because the Power Director program ( which really didn't have much other than basics) allowed settings to be made BEFORE importing video, I was hoping that there was a setting in PE9. For example, the PD program would let you set as Mpeg with different quality settings, or AVI with different quality settings, or other formats for like youtube etc. I know PE9 does this after import and in the SHARE panel, but I was wanting to experiment with the before import. Maybe I would end up staying with the 13GB/hr that I'm getting now.

                        Would be interesting to find out what others are getting for import rates, such as the Canopus converter or others. Import video and check in the project folder, analyze the AVI.

                         Anyway thank you. I will have to punt I guess

                    • 7. Re: Where to find Quality/Bitrate setting for imported AVI DURING IMPORT from VHS tape
                      oldevhs Level 1

                      I have had excellent success using the Canopus ADVC 100 for almost 10 years (current equivalent is ADVC 110) to capture VHS and analog Hi8 tapes via firewire.  Most importantly it worked first time out-of-the-box.  My experience has been that the resulting DV-AVI file size does average about 13GB for each hour of video --with PrE 2 and more recently with PrE 10.

                       

                      The '13 GB/hr' that you reference is NOT a databit rate, rather it is simply the filesize that an hour of video will become when captured as a DV-AVI file.  Also keep in mind that the resultant digital video (DVD or computer playback) will not be any better than the analog tape source material.  While at one time this was considered to be good quality (compared to film) it by no means comes close to today's digital camcorders.  Today optics are better, auto-focusing is better, anti-shake is better, and the electronics are better.

                      • 8. Re: Where to find Quality/Bitrate setting for imported AVI DURING IMPORT from VHS tape
                        nealeh Level 5

                        The following may help you understand more about DV - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DV. The relevant part answering your question is in the section 'Connectivity':

                        When video is captured onto a computer it is stored in a container file, which can be either raw DV stream, AVI, WMV or QuickTime. Whichever container is used, the video itself is not re-encoded and represents a complete digital copy of what has been recorded onto tape.

                         

                        For VHS conversion, the Analog to Digital conversion takes place within your Pyro unit, not PRE, and is governed by the hardware chip within the Pyro unit. Thus the 13GBph cannot be improved upon by PRE as it is recording 'a complete digital copy' of the output from your Pyro.

                         

                        And to specifically answer another of your questions 13GBph is also about the average I get from my Canopus ADVC300.

                         

                        Hope this helps clarify things.

                         

                        Cheers,
                        --
                        Neale
                        Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your children

                         

                        If this post or another user's post resolves the original issue, please mark the posts as correct and/or helpful accordingly. This helps other users with similar trouble get answers to their questions quicker. Thanks.

                        • 9. Re: Where to find Quality/Bitrate setting for imported AVI DURING IMPORT from VHS tape
                          A.T. Romano Level 7

                          oldevhs

                           

                          Interesting that you mention

                          The '13 GB/hr' that you reference is NOT a databit rate, rather it is simply the filesize that an hour of video will become when captured as a DV-AVI file.

                          The typical bitrate that you see for DV AVI is 3.6 MB/sec (megabytes per second).

                           

                          If you do the math, the 3.5 MB/sec equates to about 12.7 GB/hr (gigabytes per hour).

                           

                          Did you ever do any DV data capture firewire using a Mac. If so, is the bitrate for DV MOV comparable to that typically seen for DV AVI?

                           

                          Thanks.

                           

                          ATR

                          • 10. Re: Where to find Quality/Bitrate setting for imported AVI DURING IMPORT from VHS tape
                            oldevhs Level 1

                            ATR

                            Interesting about the math, I never looked at it that way, but its just a coincidence.  Comparing a data 'rate' (aka speed) to a data 'bundle' (aka filesize) is like comparing oranges to lemons --similar sounding measurement but not the same commodity. 

                             

                            As for MACs, I have never used one.

                            • 11. Re: Where to find Quality/Bitrate setting for imported AVI DURING IMPORT from VHS tape
                              head spin Level 1

                              oledevhs,

                                   Thank you for responding.and the info on the Canopus file size. One answer brings another question eh? Have you used the Canopus on any other programs besides PrE, where you could set the video quality before import as I mentioned with the Power Director program? I haven't tried with the Pyro yet so I don't know what the resulting filesize would be, or if Power Director would recognize the Pyro. I have played with various converters, and yes I know that I am only going to get quality video to a certain point and after that I am limited by the quality of the tape. But just experimenting to get as good as I can.

                              • 12. Re: Where to find Quality/Bitrate setting for imported AVI DURING IMPORT from VHS tape
                                head spin Level 1

                                Nealeh,

                                     Thank you for the info on the Canopus and the file size info. If you are still reading this post, I pose the same question to you as to oldevhs. Have you used the Canopus on any other programs where you could adjust the quality settings before import as I mentioned with the Power Director program?

                                     You guys can correct me if I'm wrong. Without being to complex, the human eye/brain can only see so much when viewing video. We import as AVI which estimates/adds? additional frames to the video to use in editing. If we import as Mpeg or another format we import less imformation and the program we use adds additional frames to work with? When we go to make a dvd after editing etc, we have a choice as to the bitrate to use. If we use a 3000kbps bitrate where we could have used 6000 is the video quality going to be as good? (I had a frustration with Windows DVD maker because it was set a low bitrate to get more on a DVD. This was before I learned how to somewhat use PrE). Following this logic (or screwed up thinking) if we import less AVI, say 6GB/hr file size as opposed to the 13GB we all seem to be getting now,would the resulting DVD video lose some quality?

                                     My skepticism remains (sorry to say) as to the Pyro or even the Canopus being limited by the circuitry as to the output file size. Still curious if Adobe limits the size based on who knows what.  I am having trouble believing a mickey mouse ION video converter through usb can put out such a huge file size. I really don't want a huge file size, just the ability to experiment until my head spins lol. Every year I discover something to improve on. I have imported a lot of video now so I have to live with my screw ups or re-do a bunch of tapes. Before I import more I hope to be satisfied is as good as it's going to be. More experimenting

                                • 13. Re: Where to find Quality/Bitrate setting for imported AVI DURING IMPORT from VHS tape
                                  Steve Grisetti Adobe Community Professional

                                  I'm not sure how many other ways we can say this, head spin. The Canopus and the Pyro units capture your video as DV-AVI, at 720x480 pixels -- that's already higher resolution than VHS! It should look as good as the original.

                                   

                                  You can't do better than that. Increasing bit rate, for instance, will make a much larger file (and possibly make the file incompatible with Premiere Elements. But the Canopus and Pyro are pretty much the perfect analog digitizers. Why muck around with that?

                                  • 14. Re: Where to find Quality/Bitrate setting for imported AVI DURING IMPORT from VHS tape
                                    oldevhs Level 1

                                    head spin;

                                    I have used the Canopus with MS Moviemaker (part of Win XP) with the same results as with PrE. 

                                     

                                    Again don't compare data 'rate' (aka speed) to a data 'bundle' (aka filesize).  Perhaps a better comparison might be filling the fuel tank on a given vehicle.

                                     

                                    If you were to use  a (small) 1/4" hose to fill a 20 gallon fuel tank it may take 1 hour to completly fill the tank.  If you then use a (larger/normal) 1 1/2" hose to fill the same fuel tank it may take 10 minutes to completly fill the tank.

                                     

                                    In other words 'fill rate' (aka data rate) has no effect on (or is not affected by) the 'tank size' (aka filesize).

                                    • 15. Re: Where to find Quality/Bitrate setting for imported AVI DURING IMPORT from VHS tape
                                      nealeh Level 5

                                      head spin wrote:

                                       

                                      Thank you for responding.and the info on the Canopus file size. One answer brings another question eh? Have you used the Canopus on any other programs besides PrE, where you could set the video quality before import

                                       

                                      But you're not comparing like with like. DV is a complete capture that typically produces around 13GB for an hour of recording. In Power Director you're referring to MPEG and AVI which are highly compressed formats (it's been a while since I used Power Director so I don't recall exactly what it stores inside its AVI container, but it was a compressed format). DV is barely lossy and is what it is. With a Pyro or Canopus unit you cannot improve what PRE receives, within PRE, as it is receiving A COMPLETE STREAM OF RAW VIDEO from the digitizer. The only influence you can have on what PRE receives is by using whatever settings may be adjustable in the Pyro unit itself (possibly by software, possibly by dip-switch - you'll need to check its manual).

                                       

                                      Cheers,
                                      --
                                      Neale
                                      Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your children

                                       

                                      If this post or another user's post resolves the original issue, please mark the posts as correct and/or helpful accordingly. This helps other users with similar trouble get answers to their questions quicker. Thanks.

                                      • 16. Re: Where to find Quality/Bitrate setting for imported AVI DURING IMPORT from VHS tape
                                        head spin Level 1

                                        Steve,

                                             Thank you. I know there are various types of AVI so I am going to have to re-read various posts and see if I comprehend this time. I gather that the DV part of the avi is the key factor in the equation. My reason for starting this discussion was that the AVI from the ION converter seemed less grainy in PrE than the AVI from the Pyro, whether or not it was modified somehow in PowerDirector during the import I do not know.

                                              Based on that apparently better picture, I used that AVI to make a DVD and PrE didn't have any trouble processing it. I comprehend that all I'm going to get through the Pyro is what I'm getting now. Non-compressed DV-AVI if I understand you guys.

                                             Thank you for your time.

                                        • 17. Re: Where to find Quality/Bitrate setting for imported AVI DURING IMPORT from VHS tape
                                          head spin Level 1

                                          oldevhs,

                                              Thank you for your analogy but mostly I wasn't talking about bitrate although that enters into the picture. But if your tank was a DVD of 4.7GB and you filled it with AVI as opposed to filling it with a compressed form such as Mpeg would you only get part of the picture? Same ammount of bits, the tank is full, but you get the whole picture even though some of the original bits are left out. Not comparing apples to apples necessarily. This discussion could be another post I guess if we wanted to continue, but maybe off track from my original question?

                                          • 18. Re: Where to find Quality/Bitrate setting for imported AVI DURING IMPORT from VHS tape
                                            head spin Level 1

                                            Nealeh,

                                                 Thanks for the info. I didn't realize that AVI was or could be compressed, which was my reason for wanting to up the bitrate  If I understand correctly, you and Steve are saying that the 13GB per hour is the actual size of what information is in my VHS tape without compression, and anything over that would start compressing the AVI and be pointless?

                                                 So, final questions to you guys I think. How to determine if a person is dealing with DV-AVI or some compressed version? Relevant or not I don't know. Would some VHS tapes have a higher bitrate than others depending on whether they are recorded in EP, SP, or LP? Maybe too broad a question. Thank you for your time

                                            • 19. Re: Where to find Quality/Bitrate setting for imported AVI DURING IMPORT from VHS tape
                                              the_wine_snob Level 9

                                              Head Spin,

                                               

                                              AVI is but a "wrapper," and can contain myriad CODEC's, from the DV/DVC to DivX (very heavily-compressed for streaming - not editing - media). This FAQ Entry goes into much more detail: http://forums.adobe.com/thread/440037?tstart=0

                                               

                                              Unfortunately, it is not just AVI, but several other formats, that can contain vastly different CODEC's.

                                               

                                              Hope that helps,

                                               

                                              Hunt

                                              • 20. Re: Where to find Quality/Bitrate setting for imported AVI DURING IMPORT from VHS tape
                                                nealeh Level 5

                                                The free utilities GSpot or MediaInfo will both tell you what is inside a video container:

                                                 

                                                1.jpg

                                                 

                                                As has been said, DV runs at about 13GB per hour of footage. I've never considered it a true recording bit rate, just the mathematical result  of final file size over total duration (other may say that therefore it is a bit rate). I've never personally performed an accurate calculation on individual files to test the 'consistency' -  if it's a 90 minute recording and my file size is anywhere between 18GB & 22GB I'm a happy bunny that my digitizer did its job properly.

                                                 

                                                 

                                                Cheers,
                                                --
                                                Neale
                                                Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your children

                                                 

                                                If this post or another user's post resolves the original issue, please mark the posts as correct and/or helpful accordingly. This helps other users with similar trouble get answers to their questions quicker. Thanks.

                                                • 21. Re: Where to find Quality/Bitrate setting for imported AVI DURING IMPORT from VHS tape
                                                  head spin Level 1

                                                  Nealeh,

                                                       Thanks to all for the feedback. I have my posting history for reference to all the links you guys have posted. Interesting to see the words "Raw DV" in your screenshot. I can't remember ever seeing that in any GSpot window for any of the video I have checked. But at any rate I will have to do some more research. The Pyro has extra input ports which I don't think Canopus has, and I have been using Component Video (Red, Blue, Green + 2 audio) out of my VHS player into the Pyro thru firewire to desktop. This may explain some differences.

                                                       I guess this case is closed as it appears I can't change anything in PrE9 for the input and maybe I don't want to anyway