36 Replies Latest reply on Jun 16, 2015 2:13 PM by tallscot

    New mac pro and open cl support

    SpencerCarpenter

      Hi,

       

      I was wondering what the low down is on the benefits of using the new mac pro with it's ati cards with open cl?

       

      I've looked around and can't see any recent articles about it, I'm assumng that Adobe will capitilse on open cl but not sure of any details...

       

      Thanks for any info on this.

       

      Spencer

        • 1. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
          Todd_Kopriva Level 8

          Premiere Pro already uses OpenCL for a lot, as does Photoshop.

           

          This page has some commentary on OpenCL and After Effects:

          http://adobe.ly/AE_2013_requests

          • 2. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
            SpencerCarpenter Level 1

            Thanks for the info. It appears there is little consideration for open cl at present. Could I ask, do you expect further integration of open cl to have a major impact on the speed of rendering many of the effects? I know fcpx is making good use of it, can we expect to see similar performance improvements?

             

            I know mavericks has updated open gl. Does this then mean a new Mac Pro will already see great performance increases even without much open cl support?

             

            Thanks again for the info.

             

            Spencer

            • 3. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
              Todd_Kopriva Level 8

              > It appears there is little consideration for open cl at present.

               

              That is entirely the wrong conclusion to draw.

               

              As I said, Premiere Pro and Photoshop use OpenCL extensively. And the page that I pointed you to only said that OpenCL couldn't ever be used for one very narrow thing; it then went on to say that the After Effects team is looking into ways to use non-vendor-specific technologies like OpenGL and OpenCL to accelerate as much as possible.

               

              For the current version of After Effects, nearly everything is done on the CPU, so the GPU is a nearly irrelevant consideration (with the exceptions described here).

              • 4. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                SpencerCarpenter Level 1

                Apologies, I meant there is little consideration - in the current release. I know it must be high on the agenda and didn't realise it's mainly CPU driven.

                 

                It's a shame I can't expect a huge leap in performance with my new Mac Pro (compared to my current mbp) but i do have confidence that adobe ae will integrate open cl quite quickly.

                 

                Can I ask does ae lend itself well to utilise the gpu or is it a huge overhaul to convert CPU driven processes to gpu driven. Or in other words will be looking at mainly new features using gpu and leaving existing ones as CPU driven?

                 

                Thanks again

                 

                Spencer

                • 5. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                  SpencerCarpenter Level 1

                  Erm, I'm in the wrong forum, how did that happen. Sorry thought I was in the ae forum. Please take this into account!

                  • 6. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                    SpencerCarpenter Level 1

                    It appears this thread was moved from 'ae discussions' to 'premiere hardware' which explains the mix up of context of my questions...

                    • 7. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                      Todd_Kopriva Level 8

                      This is actually the forum for discussion of hardware for all of the Adobe video applications. It just happens to be under the main Premiere Pro forum because there's no easy way to have a forum that isn't associated with a specific application.

                       

                      It's useful to have this discussion in the context of the other applications, since the long-term After Effects GPU strategy is closely aligned with that of Premiere Pro, SpeedGrade, and (to a somewhat lesser extent) Photoshop.

                      • 8. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                        SpencerCarpenter Level 1

                        Oh I see. So it sounds likely ae will benefit from open cl in the future. It would've great to get feedback on some of the questions above in the context of ae if possible (updated open gl in mavericks, conversion of existing features to open cl vs only developing new features in open cl).

                         

                        Thanks

                         

                        Spencer

                        • 9. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                          SebastiaanFP Level 1

                          Yes I would also like to know more about Adobe's roadmap for the near future concerning GPU support. I am also planning on a new workstation somewhere the coming year, but I will wait until there is some more clarity about these issues. Especially if it will still be beneficial to go the Nvidia + Windows way because of now still some exclusive benefits from the Cuda support, or if soon the Mac Pro will be able to offer exactly the same CC experience on it's ATI GPU's. If the CC will actually be reprogrammed so that both platforms Windows and Mac can offer the same full Adobe CC experience is also a big question that keeps me up at night!!

                          • 10. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                            SpencerCarpenter Level 1

                            I'm betting it comes down to the size of the mac user base against PC. I think the mac camp will grow due to the value proposition of the new Mac Pro for the professional and enthusiast markets. Therefore open cl buy in grow and and adobe will react accordingly. That expectation is however offset against the iMac users still on nvidia.

                            • 11. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                              SebastiaanFP Level 1

                              Hi Spencer,

                              I would love to use the new MacPro for my "mobile trips", like the Z1 HP Workstation (only of course it doesn't include a monitor and will need some external HDD's too on the road), and at my office continue on a more powerful Windows workstation. Or maybe GPU-computing is going to take such a flight that really dual CPU is not going to be needed anymore? If of course Adobe will respond to it by reprogramming the CC to become maximum GPU-driven too? Then the new MacPro will really be a complete CC workstation. I would just like to know how much the GPU-computing is expected to grow / enhance performance and take over more and more parts which before the CPU had to do.

                              • 12. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                                SpencerCarpenter Level 1

                                I'm no expert by any means but it looks like gpu has more potential so it seems logical it will be exploited. But like you I'd love to get a sense of the adobe ae roadmap for open cl.

                                • 13. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                                  SebastiaanFP Level 1

                                  Yes, but I cannot imagine anything else that quite quick MacPro / OSX will be able to give full Adobe CC experience just like windows/nvidia doing know.

                                  You actually have the new MacPro?, if so than congratulations, it looks to be a really beautiful machine. And much more powerful than my present Windows 7 workstation I build 3 years ago....

                                  • 14. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                                    SpencerCarpenter Level 1

                                    I've got a full spec one on the way thanks. I've got faith the professional market that I believe are mainly mac based will exert enough pressure to get open cl support. Also of course you can run windows on a mac so you've got the software front covered if you go mac.

                                    • 15. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                                      chfilm2

                                      I'm curious for those question as well! I'm planning to get a new mac Pro, but can't decide if the d700 is worth the upgrade over the d500, considering I'm mostly working in Adobe CC Tools.

                                       

                                      It's mostly After Effects Animation, Premiere Editing and Media encoding in AME.

                                      Plus Photoshop/illu of course but those already are quite fast enough on my current late 2012 imac.

                                       

                                      Any thoughts on that decision?

                                      • 16. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                                        SpencerCarpenter Level 1

                                        Personally if you're busy in that market I would take the risk of the upgrade. it only needs to save you one days pay max over the years you'll use for it to pay for itself with the upgrade being relatively inexpensive.

                                        • 17. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                                          chfilm2 Level 1

                                          Yes I know, that was my thinking as well.. but really - what single app except fcp x will make use of the power today? I read that premiere uses dual gpu setups since recently. So I guess rendering will be improved by the d700?

                                           

                                          /edit

                                          I just read that Red Cine X has dualgpu support for Open CL since October..ha I finished my last red job just before that. So that's awesome news and gives me a definite push in the direction of the bigger gpu.

                                          • 18. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                                            jasonvp Level 3

                                            chfilm2 wrote:

                                             

                                            I'm curious for those question as well! I'm planning to get a new mac Pro, but can't decide if the d700 is worth the upgrade over the d500, considering I'm mostly working in Adobe CC Tools.

                                            The cost difference between the D700 and D500 is so minimal after spending that much on a decked out Mac Pro that it seems silly to cut corners there.  Spend the money, make the text file alterations for OpenCL support, and enjoy.

                                             

                                            Also, read this.

                                            • 19. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                                              Trilo Byte Level 1

                                              According to Adobe's published information, the current versions of Premiere Pro CC and After Effects CC are able to recognize dual GPU's and put them to work, no special customizations or tweaks required.  Additionally, the Mercury Playback Engine in both those apps is able to work with cards that support OpenCL (in addition to nVidia cards supporting their proprietary CUDA format).

                                               

                                              From the published info, only the hardware acceleration for AE's Optix ray tracing engine still requires a CUDA card.  Machines with AMD and Intel integrated GPU's can still use ray-tracing in AE, it's just done through software/CPU.

                                               

                                              Based on what I've seen so far (published specs and a handful of reviews), the FirePro GPU's in the new Mac Pro are each monsters in the Open CL bang-for-the-buck department, especially considering that the machine comes with two of them.  I'm sold, I can't wait to get my hands on one and put it to work.

                                               

                                              It's probably a bit nerdy, but I think there's something to be said for making dual GPU's standard on the lineup.  Hopefully it provides some additional incentive for developers to start supporting and leveraging that in their apps in the months ahead.

                                              • 20. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                                                jasonvp Level 3

                                                Trilo Byte wrote:

                                                 

                                                According to Adobe's published information, the current versions of Premiere Pro CC and After Effects CC are able to recognize dual GPU's and put them to work, no special customizations or tweaks required.

                                                Pr and AME (I have no AE experience) should use the cards without any modifications, but you'll be warned about using an "unsupported card".  Delete the opencl_supported_cards.txt files from the Pr and AME installation directories, and you won't get the warnings.

                                                • 21. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                                                  Trilo Byte Level 1

                                                  Good to know.  I thought I'd read that with the October 2013 update Premiere no longer required any kind of tweaks or adjustments, but perhaps that was just After Effects.  My primary machine's GPU is on the list of supported cards (and am still a couple months from getting the new machine), so I've never had to mess around with it.

                                                  • 22. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                                                    doctorsney Level 1

                                                    Heya Todd,

                                                     

                                                    so I'm here asking the same question which is when will there be comparable support for the fancy 3d features as provided by CUDA, available on Mac Pro's and their Open CL cards?

                                                     

                                                    I've been holding off purchase of a Mac pro hoping comparable support would come through, but it's now late 2014 and I just brought a project home that flies on CUDA powered hackintoshes at a studio, but is really not performing particularly well on a 'top of the line' Mac Pro.

                                                     

                                                    Given that I've just dropped a small fortune on this thing (my new mac) and that it's not an obscure piece of hardware, when will we see comparable support? I've just started using the ray-traced 3d features on projects for a particular client and they're expecting more of the same and it will really suck if the ridiculous workstation I just purchased cannot keep up with a vaguely reliable hackintosh built at a fraction of the cost.

                                                     

                                                    Thanks

                                                    • 23. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                                                      JFPhoton Level 3

                                                      ....not Todd here.....but, I FEEL YOUR PAIN !!    Considering the many issues and complaints regarding compatibility between PPro and the Mac OS that are posted on the general PPro forum....you MAY want to consider SELLING your mac pro NOW that the NEW Haswell E CPUs are out , along with the new 980 and 970 Nvidia cards, too. It is apparent that the Macs are always behind the Windows machines.   The new Haswell E and NVidia cards are setting new levels of performance with PPro....rivaling the performance usually only found on massively expensive dual Xeon industrial machines !!! This is exciting for small businesses, as the cost of great performance is being reduced to affordable levels !!  Many are ADDICTED to the Apple format and are reluctant to consider change.....however, ...we free citizens of the world are not intended to be bound by chains to the past !!! Break the bonds of Apple servitude and escape into smooth scrubbing ecstasy !!!!

                                                      • 24. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                                                        ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                        Really the X99 and Haswell E is a far better way to go now. That is i7 Gen 4 versus i7 Gen 3 on the nMPro's. DDR4 makes a significant difference with GPU acceleration and Nvidia cards still perform far better with Adobe. Along with that the new 8 Core CPU is unlocked and at higher clock speeds is king right now in performance with 4K, 5K, 6K media overall.

                                                         

                                                        Eric

                                                        ADK

                                                        • 25. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                                                          doctorsney Level 1

                                                          Not to go off topic too much here, but I'd rather cut my throat (or in this case pay thousands of extra dollars) NOT to ever touch a windows machine ever again. I'm using a Mac, I like macs. I used to build my own PC workstations so I know my s***. But now I like macs. If hackintoshes were reliable I would go that route, but I'm just not interested in responses that tell me to change hardware, I like my hardware choice, I like my platform choice.

                                                           

                                                          Also the nature of most of my projects make this the optimum time to buy for me, so I bought a 12 core mac. It's not that I'm unaware of the new Xeon chips being released, but unless there was a machine featuring this at time I needed to purchase, it's a moot discussion for me at least.

                                                           

                                                          I have my hardware, it's kick *** hardware. I want it to perform. I dislike the idea that Nvidia seem to be favored in terms of what you can create. Someone somewhere is dropping the ball and I don't care who fixes it, I just want it fixed. So Adobe, ATI, Apple, Allah and Buddha, please make the ray-traced 3d stuff fly on my new mac pro, and in all future cases, please don't release features that favor one specific hardware vendor. As someone who works in multiple studios and frequently takes projects with him, some level of uniformity would be great. It's better than it used to be in terms of cross platform uniformity, but we're not there yet. There's a world class graphics card (x2) in the mac pro, why isn't anyone making this thing do what the Nvidia cards can do.

                                                           

                                                          Thanks.

                                                          • 26. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                                                            ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                            Well as someone who has been in the tech industry a long time and watched the evolution of GPU acceleration, I can tell you it's not that simple. Open CL has not been and still isn't nearly as mature as Cuda is currently. The development tools and resources available behind Cuda have been far more mature for years. Open CL is still catching up with that. Cuda has been used as the initial GPU acceleration MPI since the beginning with most applications that started with it for a reason. The fact Adobe started with Cuda support and has been building with Cuda is well published online. There are endless amounts of posts that say Cuda still far out performs Open CL. If with all that information the person still decides on the Open CL only hardware and solution then that person chose the less performance for their own reasons. It's not up to Adobe to change this in the near future to justify that persons choice in hardware. You don't buy a laptop to be your web server. You buy a server for that. BTW which is easier to fix this or to have made this a non issue. Apple to ship Nvidia cards with their nMPro or Adobe to redo their entire code and software?

                                                             

                                                            Eric

                                                            ADK

                                                            • 27. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                                                              doctorsney Level 1

                                                              Thanks for the response Erik. It hardly makes my day, but I appreciate you pitching in.

                                                              • 28. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                                                                NordicFilmworks Level 1

                                                                Wow... Almost a year later and Adobe still has no solution for Mac users other than incredibly slow, buggy, and relatively unsupported GPUs.  Maybe by 2017 Adobe will support a massive amount of their paying customers on mac...

                                                                • 29. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                                                                  ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                                  Unfortunately there are not nearly as many Mac users versus PC/Windows users so the market share puts the Mac users at a disadvantage for R&D dollars. Along with this Apple's philosophy has changed from High performance pro work to good enough generalist use. People staying Mac now are simply doing so for the OS. The performance and applications available no longer carry the platform.

                                                                   

                                                                  Eric

                                                                  ADK

                                                                  • 30. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                                                                    NordicFilmworks Level 1

                                                                    Sorry, nope.  Realtime rendering basically with Nuke all day today.  This is an Adobe issue not supporting advanced hardware.

                                                                    • 31. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                                                                      Todd_Kopriva Level 8

                                                                      > Unfortunately there are not nearly as many Mac users versus PC/Windows users so the market share puts the Mac users at a disadvantage for R&D dollars.

                                                                       

                                                                      Eric, that's not correct... at least not for our applications and users. We find that there is a roughly even split between Mac OS and Windows among our users, and we treat each with equivalent concern.

                                                                       

                                                                      Very generally speaking, we do have a special set of considerations with regard to Mac OS and Mac hardware, since Apple makes changes much more rapidly in these areas, so it can be more difficult for us to hit their moving target.

                                                                      • 32. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                                                                        ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                                        1 application does not a platform make. I would also look at Fusion at this point versus Nuke especially since BM has it now. Nuke is going to have some trouble competing with it's price point comparatively.

                                                                         

                                                                        As to functionality yes I am ware there are applications that play fine with OSX and the Open CL. However there are far more having issues and I would say Nuke's acceleration is not anywhere near those at this point. Even Davinci is having issues with Open CL right now on OSX.

                                                                         

                                                                        I am aware Adobe treats them the same since it's relatively split even. However the hardware and software manufacturers as a whole don't see it that way because globally Mac is less than 10% of the market. As more applications move to hardware acceleration and are reliant on OS and hardware/driver changes this is going to show more. Apple takes on the update responsibility themselves to alleviate as much of that as possible but the cost is the ability to respond to problems as they occur quickly. The 3rd party companies often have to wait on them for those and that drags the resolutions out even longer. Microsoft's model that allows the partners to respond themselves with fixes over more components fits today's media content industry pace better as it is right now.

                                                                         

                                                                        Eric

                                                                        ADK

                                                                        • 33. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                                                                          NordicFilmworks Level 1

                                                                          ECBowen,

                                                                           

                                                                          Then Adobe should simply remove the little "we support Mac OS X" operating system off their products.  By stating you support the operating system, you make certain promises to the customer; one would be reasonable updates of the software to hardware;  it has been more than a year that these issues starting occurring for Mac users with Adobe AEFX.

                                                                          • 34. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                                                                            ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                                            Well if your talking AE that doesn't have any acceleration to speak of outside of Ray Tracer which is going away. Dont expect that to change any time soon even on Windows. Remember GPU acceleration is still very young tech. Development is really less than 6 to 8 years old for the most part. Application designers have not even scratched the surface of what can be evolved over to it. AE works on OSX as does Premiere. The difference is the GPU acceleration with Open CL on Premiere is new compared to Cuda which is several years evolved and far more developed by Nvidia than Open CL was and is right now in general. Companies have far more to do to implement Open CL with far less tools and preexisting development to pull from. This translates into more issues especially as the hardware evolves with more threading and memory management constantly fluctuating with ever more amounts of ram available along with OS development for API's and their support. What your stating is you want Open CL to have the same performance as Cuda and it's just not there yet nor will it be anytime soon and that is not Adobe's fault.

                                                                             

                                                                            Eric

                                                                            ADK

                                                                            • 35. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                                                                              RiderProd

                                                                              hello

                                                                              I just bought a mac pro to pro apple store.

                                                                              I am over performance in After Effect

                                                                               

                                                                               

                                                                              A computer € 7,000 is not working 100% in after effect ???? !!!!

                                                                               

                                                                               

                                                                              Do you have a solution propose to me ???

                                                                              • 36. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                                                                                NordicFilmworks Level 1

                                                                                RiderProd wrote:

                                                                                 

                                                                                hello

                                                                                I just bought a mac pro to pro apple store.

                                                                                I am over performance in After Effect

                                                                                 

                                                                                 

                                                                                A computer € 7,000 is not working 100% in after effect ???? !!!!

                                                                                 

                                                                                 

                                                                                Do you have a solution propose to me ???

                                                                                 

                                                                                What's the performance issue?  RAM allocation? Crashing? etc...

                                                                                • 37. Re: New mac pro and open cl support
                                                                                  tallscot Level 1

                                                                                  After Effects CC 2015 still doesn't utilize GPU. Sad.

                                                                                   

                                                                                  I've switched to Apple's Motion. It uses the dual GPU in my Mac Pro and screams. Even particles play in real time with no RAM preview render needed.