24 Replies Latest reply on Jan 23, 2014 4:33 PM by rparks@usa.net

    Nested styles

    rparks@usa.net

      I have tons of these to format. (A genealogy  book) 

       

                   394               iii.               George Hurff DAVIDSON. Born on 14 May 1890.

       

                               i.         Miriam DAVIDSON. Born on 27 Apr 1887. Miriam died abt 1887; she was <1.

       

       

      Each space is a tab in front of the persons numbers. I want to eliminate the tab in front of each number and align vertically.

       

      Using nested styles how do you get rid of the tabs and insert space marks to align the numbers  and roman numbers to align them vertically?

       

      Can anyone post the nested styles to do this? I am using Indesign CC.

        • 1. Re: Nested styles
          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

          You don't do this with nested styles (nested styles apply character styles to text matching the trigger pattern). What you need is a series of pargraph styles formatted as numbered list, with appropriate left indents.

          • 2. Re: Nested styles
            rparks@usa.net Level 1

            So Using nested - there isn’t a way to delete the tab charactor?  I'm a newbie at this nested thing.

            • 3. Re: Nested styles
              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

              Nested styles only change formatting. They cannot add or remove text.

              • 4. Re: Nested styles
                rparks@usa.net Level 1

                Thanks.

                • 5. Re: Nested styles
                  Daniel Flavin Level 4

                  Post a screen shot of your current document with hidden characters showing, similar to this

                   

                  Capture.JPG

                  • 6. Re: Nested styles
                    rparks@usa.net Level 1

                    This from a file pasted into Indesign

                     

                    Screen Shot 2014-01-22 at 1.19.11 PM.jpg

                    • 7. Re: Nested styles
                      Peter Villevoye Adobe Community Professional

                      I'm not sure I understand correctly what you want the text to look like eventually, but if the numbers in the beginneing of the line of text can have multiple digits, than you need that first tab to align them vertically, with the lowest digit on the right (requiring a right aligned tab setting).

                       

                      Judging from the pasted raw text in your image above, the numbering is also non-consistent. Number 145 has no trailing tab.

                       

                      This kind of 'data' needs some tweaking and correcting in Word first, to assure that all rows and columns show the same pattern, in order to let InDesign format it correctly. A sequence of clever Find & Replace commands in Word to either truncate or add tabs and delete extraneous spaces would be a good practice. (GREP in InDesign could even be better, but is a bit harder to grasp...)

                      • 8. Re: Nested styles
                        Daniel Flavin Level 4

                        You have what might lean towards..

                        a need for paragraph indents

                        Numbered lists which are already numbered

                         

                        How do you want the final copy to appear? (I attempted to OCR your image but the results were poor)

                         

                        Numbered lists (389) flush left with subsequent indents for the Roman numerals?

                         

                        I'm thinking, in this order,

                        find ^t^t and apply Paragraph 2

                        set P2 with a hanging indent

                        find ^p^t and apply Paragraph 1

                        find ^p^t  within P1 and change to ^p

                         

                        It might involve some hoop jumping with the document, but there are consistancies along with inconsistancies. As mntioned in another post, GREP is mor powerful, but F/R will accomplish a fair amount.

                        • 9. Re: Nested styles
                          SJRiegel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          You can use  a Grep seach on your selected paragraphs to get rid of the tab before the number, and then a regular search to change all double tabs to single. Having done that, you can get the formatting you want with just the tab panel, -- I have a screen shot, but the forum isn't letting me upload it. I'll try again after a bit.

                          • 10. Re: Nested styles
                            SJRiegel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            Here it is: with the first tab removed, and multiple tabs changed to one, formatting becomes easy:

                            Screen shot 2014-01-22 at 4.44.16 PM.png

                            • 11. Re: Nested styles
                              rparks@usa.net Level 1

                              This is what it wants to look like. A 6x9 book page (Red is for convience and won't be in the final)

                              attached are the working copy and a preview copy. I want to align with the edge of the printable page.

                              On the working I have been adding in  space bars to align. Then I discovered nested styles in an Indesign book.

                               

                               

                               

                               

                              Screen Shot 2014-01-22 at 1.58.55 PM.jpg

                               

                              Screen Shot 2014-01-22 at 2.00.18 PM.jpg

                              • 12. Re: Nested styles
                                Peter Villevoye Adobe Community Professional

                                When in doubt, you could also simply convert it (with tabs and all) into a elegant table with cells, columns, and rows, in stead of using tabs...But then again, the non-tabbed paragrpahs would require merging of cells.

                                • 13. Re: Nested styles
                                  Peter Villevoye Adobe Community Professional

                                  I see a tad right offset between the name and any secondary line of text. So you definitely need the left margin and a negative first indent, together with some tab settings, and a couple of parapraph styles to differentiate between these complex paragraphs and plain text (simply large left margin).

                                   

                                  What about number 130 ? And what if the number is below 100 or reaches above 999, how would you like the digits to be aligned ? And are all paragraphs with names in the raw text properly preformatted (with bold and capitals) ?

                                  • 14. Re: Nested styles
                                    rparks@usa.net Level 1

                                    Would that be before or after placing in Indesign?

                                    • 15. Re: Nested styles
                                      Peter Villevoye Adobe Community Professional

                                      What would "that" be ? Setting these typographical properties ? It would certainly be wise to create and apply Paragraph Styles to format these texts. It wouldn't matter when you sample and create that style, before or after you place the text. Of course you need to create the style before applying it, but you can always tweak it afterwards.

                                       

                                      Mind the original text, because it might already carry some conflicting default margin and tab settings upon placing. You could use the "Import Options" to strip it from any formatting, but that would also clean all bold formatting (checking "Local Overrides" sometimes helps to retain them while cleaning other formatting, not always though).

                                      • 16. Re: Nested styles
                                        Daniel Flavin Level 4

                                        Your usage of multiple spaces for alignment is a poor choice for a clean layout, that you will regret..

                                        Look at SRiegel's post #10.

                                         

                                        Create a copy of this before you get to deep.

                                         

                                        Copy/Paste some content to a new document to learn on.

                                         

                                        Find/Replace instances of spacespacespacespace with space until you have no multiple spaces (Just hit the change all repeatedly from the dialog) . (There are more elegant solutions and scripts for this)

                                         

                                        Replace all double tabs with single tabs

                                        • 17. Re: Nested styles
                                          Peter Villevoye Adobe Community Professional

                                          GOSH ! Are those... SPACES ??? Didn't spot them.

                                           

                                          When searching for extraneous spaces, don't replace the final set of double spaces with a single space, because you need to replace those with a tab ! Of course some accidental double spaces will also turn into a tab, so you need to edit those out by hand. Yup, that's the penalty for hitting the space, tab, and return as if they were just fillers...

                                          • 18. Re: Nested styles
                                            rparks@usa.net Level 1

                                            Yes they are and I am looking fo a way out. Hope you guys can send me in the right direction. I have been  doing that to align it and thought there must be a better way.

                                            • 19. Re: Nested styles
                                              Peter Villevoye Adobe Community Professional

                                              Aligning with spaces works very well... on a 100 year old TypeWriter !

                                               

                                              And even Underwood introduced tabulated typing very soon after their invention of the typewriter, to let typists move the "carriage" quickly to a preset postition with a single tap on the "tab" key (hence the "stops" at the back of the mechanism). It kept the typists from debating and varying how many spaces were used to indent or align certain texts like bullets or numbers and tables. The left and right margin stops restricted ancient typists to type or tab within the preset column width. They were not able to type beyond the right margin. About 10 characters before reaching that margin, the mechanism would pass a lever that would ring a subtle bell, alerting the typist to finish or hyphenate a word, and "return the carriage" to the left with the big handle (hence the "Return" key, still available on our keyboards).

                                               

                                              Now, look at the Tab ruler in InDesign (under the Text menu) and see how this mimics exactly the back of that old typewriter. The only extra we have nowadays, is to indent the column margins both normally and negatively (to the left, outdenting the first line), what you may need in case of a Name entry exceeding one line.

                                               

                                              GenealogyPage.png

                                               

                                              So in conclusion: in InDesign you need to set a couple of Paragraph Styles which alter the left and right margins a lot, and one style without margins but with a few tab stops. (I can send you my InDesign file if you want to study it.)

                                               

                                              And jumping to tabs to create a horizontal gap isn't the only thing necessary and practical. In order to move lines of text vertically, you also need to set some Space Before and After certain Paragraph Styles. As you can see, I deleted extra returns to let the Space Before and After take care of the vertical gaps. These will never show up on the top or bottom of a text column, so you never need to keep track of stray returns.

                                               

                                              The only thing what might be tricky but powerful, is the formatting of each Name entry. And that's probably what lured you into the nesting of styles. If the whole text will or needs to be imported in a 'clean' state, the pattern of tabs and the "." could trigger automatic formatting to Bold, Capitals and Regular type within that one name paragraph. But that's all the nested style could be capable of in this example, and often such an auto-applied formatting needs to be tweaked for every inconsistency in the text. But it's worth the effort in the long run !

                                               

                                              Welcome to the world of text processing and typesetting.

                                              • 20. Re: Nested styles
                                                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                Peter Villevoye wrote:

                                                 

                                                Aligning with spaces works very well... on a 100 year old TypeWriter !

                                                of course, those old typewriters also didn't have proportional type.

                                                • 21. Re: Nested styles
                                                  rparks@usa.net Level 1

                                                  Peter,

                                                   

                                                  Send it please or is the pic above the info  (I can send you my InDesign file if you want to study it.)   Thanks

                                                  • 22. Re: Nested styles
                                                    rparks@usa.net Level 1

                                                    Peter,

                                                     

                                                    This Newbie need s a little more info here. I got the nested Child lin,  ok but not text wrap "vertical' part.

                                                     

                                                    And jumping to tabs to create a horizontal gap isn't the only thing necessary and practical. In order to move lines of text vertically, you also need to set some Space Before and After certain Paragraph Styles. As you can see, I deleted extra returns to let the Space Before and After take care of the vertical gaps. These will never show up on the top or bottom of a text column, so you never need to keep track of stray returns.

                                                     

                                                    The only thing what might be tricky but powerful, is the formatting of each Name entry. And that's probably what lured you into the nesting of styles. If the whole text will or needs to be imported in a 'clean' state, the pattern of tabs and the "." could trigger automatic formatting to Bold, Capitals and Regular type within that one name paragraph. But that's all the nested style could be capable of in this example, and often such an auto-applied formatting needs to be tweaked for every inconsistency in the text. But it's worth the effort in the long run

                                                    • 23. Re: Nested styles
                                                      rparks@usa.net Level 1

                                                      Peter -V. - My email address is above if you wish to talk/send by email

                                                      • 24. Re: Nested styles
                                                        rparks@usa.net Level 1

                                                        I have this set up and I see how you set it up. Great. The text part is what I want but don't know if it can be done in a nested style .

                                                         

                                                        I would like to tell the style to set it up after the period that follows the year. Is this possible?

                                                         

                                                        Thanks all.