18 Replies Latest reply on Feb 12, 2014 11:45 AM by Dov Isaacs

    Why does one Hebrew character drop out in print?

    Cyndee M Level 1

      I'm not sure if this belongs here or in the Acrobat forum -- let me know if it should be moved.

       

      I sent a job to press and had the problem that in print, one character of one Hebrew font did not print and was substituted with a box. I am using Windows 7 Professional and I prepared the file in ID CC 9.2 and exported the PDF using PDF/X-1a:2001 settings. The PDF looked fine on my end with all characters correct.

       

      I sent the file to my printer and the final printed result had that one character (same character always) substituted with the box. My printer says he uses Acrobat XI Pro on a Windows 7 Ultimate machine, with Quite Imposition Pro for imposition and page shirts, ordering, etc. He printed the file on several devices: Xerox 7655, Xerox 242 and Xerox 5000, all with the same results.

       

      After we saw the problem in print, he tried it again with the files originating on a Windows 7 Professional machine and there was no problem. He printed a similar file for me last year using the same fonts when he was using Windows XP and there was no problem.

       

      Additionally, I have had numerous files using this font printed by other printers without a problem.

       

      How do we troubleshoot this? What should we look for? And how can we prevent it in the future?

       

      Any thoughts are greatly appreciated.

        • 1. Re: Why does one Hebrew character drop out in print?
          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

          The first thing to do is check to be sure the font is actually embedded completely when you check the Document Properties in Acrobat. You may see more than one "subset" listed and they all need to say Embedded.

          • 2. Re: Why does one Hebrew character drop out in print?
            Cyndee M Level 1

            Sorry, should have added that info. Document properties lists all fonts as Embedded Subset.

            • 3. Re: Why does one Hebrew character drop out in print?
              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

              Next thing I would check is that the printer has Use Local Fonts UNchecked in his Acrobat prefs to force the use of the embedded font.

              • 4. Re: Why does one Hebrew character drop out in print?
                Cyndee M Level 1

                Peter Spier wrote:

                 

                Next thing I would check is that the printer has Use Local Fonts UNchecked in his Acrobat prefs to force the use of the embedded font.

                I've emailed him asking this; waiting for his response. But would that cause only one single character to go wrong? Everything is good except for one character.

                • 5. Re: Why does one Hebrew character drop out in print?
                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                  It might if he's got a different version of the font and it's missing just that character.

                  • 6. Re: Why does one Hebrew character drop out in print?
                    Cyndee M Level 1

                    Peter Spier wrote:

                     

                    It might if he's got a different version of the font and it's missing just that character.

                    He definitely doesn't have the font at all in any version. It is a Hebrew font which I own and he does not.

                    • 7. Re: Why does one Hebrew character drop out in print?
                      Cyndee M Level 1

                      Okay, I've confirmed that he has use local fonts unchecked and that he doesn't have any version of this font installed.

                       

                      Any further thoughts?

                      • 8. Re: Why does one Hebrew character drop out in print?
                        Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        What glyph is it?

                         

                        Has anyone asked Quite what they think?

                        • 9. Re: Why does one Hebrew character drop out in print?
                          Cyndee M Level 1

                          Joel Cherney wrote:

                           

                          What glyph is it?

                           

                          Has anyone asked Quite what they think?

                          The Glyphs palette says:

                          GID: 66

                          Unicode: 05EA

                          Name: HEBREW LETTER TAV

                           

                          Who is "Quite"?

                          • 10. Re: Why does one Hebrew character drop out in print?
                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                            Cyndee M wrote:

                            Who is "Quite"?

                            The developer of the imposition plugin your printer is using.

                            • 11. Re: Why does one Hebrew character drop out in print?
                              Cyndee M Level 1

                              Peter Spier wrote:

                               

                              Cyndee M wrote:

                              Who is "Quite"?

                              The developer of the imposition plugin your printer is using.

                              Sorry, I missed that. Yes, the printer is speaking to them too.

                              • 12. Re: Why does one Hebrew character drop out in print?
                                Bo LeBeau Level 4

                                . . . with Quite Imposition Pro for imposition . . .

                                • 13. Re: Why does one Hebrew character drop out in print?
                                  Cyndee M Level 1

                                  What about the fact that there was no problem when he processed the files using the Win 7 Pro machine, but had the problem with the Win 7 Ultimate one?

                                  • 14. Re: Why does one Hebrew character drop out in print?
                                    Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    The differences between the two operating systems are minor. It'd have to be a local configuration thing. IIRC, "Ultimate" is just Win 7 Pro with all of the Win 7 Home stuff tacked on the side.

                                     

                                    It might be a printer driver problem. Many drivers have a "Download soft font/use printer font" toggle hidden somewhere. If the font is a common one (say, Arial?) that could be the problem - the printer font is broken? But that is unlikely.

                                    • 15. Re: Why does one Hebrew character drop out in print?
                                      Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

                                      Some comments and questions on this thread …

                                       

                                      (1)     Windows 7 Professional versus Windows 7 Ultimate is irrelevant for this discussion. As pointed out, the only difference is some multimedia shovelware bundled with the OS and not OS functionality itself! 

                                       

                                      (2)     It is only necessary to subset embed a font in the PDF file created by export from InDesign. It is a total bubbameissa that either a fully embedded font or a subset is somehow either more reliable or otherwise better than the other. Furthermore, contrary to other urban legends, fully embedding a font does not provide the capability of editing the PDF file's text in Acrobat without having the font otherwise installed on your system. What is true is that fully embedding the font (i.e. forcing the embedding all glyph definitions from a font) yields much larger and potentially bloated PDF files.

                                       

                                      (3)     The Use Local Fonts feature is totally irrelevant for PDF files for which the fonts are embedded. With the Use Local Font option enabled (the default), Acrobat attempts to use equivalently-named fonts on the user system for text for which the font is not embedded. The fonts on a user's system never override the fonts embedded in a PDF file. There are no exceptions to this either for display or printing a PDF file from either Adobe Reader or Adobe Acrobat. I obviously cannot vouch for third party PDF viewers.

                                       

                                      (4)     We are not currently aware of any glitches in InDesign PDF Export or Acrobat/Reader that would yield the described symptoms.

                                       

                                      (5)     Quite Imposing is a plug-in to Acrobat that does imposition of logical pages of a PDF file for creating books, booklets, n-up configurations, etc. I personally use it, know the program's developer, and know of no glitches with that software when used with otherwise kosher PDF files.

                                       

                                      (6)     When printing to PostScript printers, Acrobat/Reader generates its own PostScript and handles its own embedding of fonts for the output stream. Acrobat/Reader never uses printer-resident fonts. Nor does it ever substitute any user-installed fonts for fonts that are embedded in the PDF file.

                                       

                                      (7)     The fact that the file prints correctly sometimes and sometimes not at your printer and that other printers seem to have no issue with the files and the fonts in question points directly to some system issues with your printer. What those are cannot be readily discerned without knowing more about the printer's complete workflow. We know about use of Quite Imposing, but does the printer do stupid things such as opening the editing the file in Adobe Illustrator “just to check things out?” That's a good way to terribly mess up a PDF file! Or perhaps there are other third party workflow applications that your printer routinely ruins files with? I am not trying to be obnoxious, but on these forums you wouldn't believe what we have seen trying to pass themselves off as professional printers.

                                       

                                      I would be glad to dissect the PDF file here at Adobe and ascertain its actual quality. Send me a private message via the forum with a pointer to where I can download the file from or otherwise let me know and I'll give you my e-mail address so that you can send it via e-mail.

                                       

                                                - Dov

                                      • 16. Re: Why does one Hebrew character drop out in print?
                                        Cyndee M Level 1

                                        Thanks Dov, I you have echoed most of what my thoughts were. And I know the printer isn't opening the files in Illustrator (we're talking multi-page stuff) and he says the only software he's using is Quite Imposing. I have no reason not to believe him as he has been very reliable in the past and is also working to resolve this. I'll PM you with a link to the file.

                                        • 17. Re: Why does one Hebrew character drop out in print?
                                          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                          Thanks for weighing in here, Dov.

                                           

                                          Regarding point 2, I think maybe I wasn't clear. I didn't mean 100% of th efont needed to be embedded, but rather that all of the characters actually used should be in embedded subsets. How one might get characters that are not embedded when the rest are, is of course a great mystery, and not something I would expect to see. My comment was there to make sure that this was verified.

                                           

                                          Point 3, I did not know (or at least didn't remember), so that's good to see here.

                                           

                                          And I think your point 7 is dead on.

                                          • 18. Re: Why does one Hebrew character drop out in print?
                                            Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

                                            Hi Cyndee,

                                             

                                            I have examined the file that your sent me off-forum both visually and with all the tools we have at Adobe for validating PDF files and their contents. There is absolutely nothing technically wrong with the file in terms of the text or fonts or how they are embedded.

                                             

                                            I tried printing the file with Acrobat Pro 11.0.6 from three separate systems, two running Windows 7 SP1 x64 and one running MacOS 10.8, to three different PostScript printers I have available to me (including a Xerox Phaser 7400). There were no character dropouts at all.

                                             

                                            On my Windows 7 SP1 x64 system, I took the file and created a booklet using Quite Imposing Plus 3.0f, the most current update to this software. (The resultant PDF file is attached!). I also tried printing that file to my printers. There were no character dropouts at all.

                                             

                                            Given the information that you have provided about your printer and his multiple computers and devices, some combinations of which seem to yield correct results and others not, I am beginning to think that perhaps the issue is associated with your printer installing non-PostScript printer drivers for the devices on one or more of his computers. Many of these devices also support emulation of PCL5 and PCL6 and come with drivers for same in addition to PostScript drivers. Perhaps your printer unknowingly installed and used these non-PostScript drivers. (For the record, many of these PCL emulations and third party PCL drivers are as flaky as a croissant! Many unexplainable failures of the type you mention have been traced to bad emulations and drivers, sometimes fixable by simply downloading and installing an “updated driver” from the device’s manufacturer.) For the devices in question, PostScript should always be used for output – no ifs, ands, or buts about it!

                                             

                                            One additional note. Your booklet is really beautiful, but the PDF file shows “transparency flattening artifacts” when viewing (and possibly when printing) due to your creation of a PDF/X-1a file. Here at Adobe, we strongly recommend that you use the PDF/X-4 PDF export setting instead of PDF/X-1a. PDF/X-1a is an archaic ISO printing standard that worked well until the advent of “transparency” in the PDF imaging model used by Adobe applications. (Note that you can end up with transparency simply by using drop shadows in InDesign or Illustrator, for example!) When you export PDF/X-1a from InDesign all transparency is flattened to some pre-defined resolution which may or may not be correct for your final output device. And in many cases, screen display will show “transparency flattening artifacts” which include unexpected, annoying, thin white lines (which do show up on display of your PDF file!). PDF/X-4 maintains live transparency when exporting PDF. There are no transparency flattening artifacts to deal with. Given that your printer is printing to PostScript from Acrobat Pro which is optimized for PDF/X-4, there is no excuse for your printer not to accept PDF/X-4 files. (I’ll be glad to personally discuss this with your printer if he needs more information or “convincing!”)

                                             

                                                        - Dov