23 Replies Latest reply on Feb 25, 2014 6:40 PM by A.T. Romano

    What is best practice for adding both 29.97 fps and 10 fps avi into one project?

    kellybellis Level 1

      Hi,

       

      What is best practice for adding multiple clips into a single Premiere Elements (v10; Windows, 64-bit) project?

       

      In particular, the raw clips (both at 1920 x 1080) come from two sources:

      Canon EOS 5dM3; .mov; H.264;  29.97 fps

      Screencast-O-Matic; .avi; MP42; 10 fps

       

      The project is pro-bono for the University of Maine's Surveying Engineering Technologies department and the S-O-M clip fills up most of the frame with a much smaller picture-in-picture clip of the instructor should any of that matter.

       

      In PE, I tried various approaches in setting the New Project's project settings; e.g.,

       

      DSLR 1080p DSLR 1080p30

      DSLR 1080p DSLR 1080p30 @ 29.97

       

      And then various combinations of which clip gets added first; e.g. .mov before the .avi into the new project.

       

      Then upon final render out from PE to, well that's another aspect of best practices I'd love to get settled on. Ideal is at 1920 x 1080 and .f4v is looking like a favorite, but because of (the above?) the results are not too pretty:

      not too pretty.PNG

       

      The .mov clip looks okay, but the S-O-M clip looks like P-O-S!

       

      The maddening part about this head beating journey was the first crack at the S-O-M and the first take at adhoc lecture the .f4v did not look too bad but haven't yet been able to get the same result:

       

      not too bad.PNG

       

       

       

      Any pointers will be very much appreciated.

       

      Thank you very much.

       

      Kelly

        • 1. Re: What is best practice for adding both 29.97 fps and 10 fps avi into one project?
          A.T. Romano Level 7

          Kelly

           

          If your video is 1080p (1920 x 1080 @ 29.97 progressive frames per second), then set the project preset (either you manually if nessary or the project if it does it right) to

          NTSC

          DSLR

          1080p

          DSLR 1080p30 @29.97

           

          I believe that your problem is in the choice of settings for the Screencast-O-Matic, that is,

          MP42 video compression with an .avi file extension or the screen capturing program in general.

          Look at Microsoft Video 1.avi or H.264.mp4 if they are available choices.

           

          Then import your screen capture (10 frames per second if that is what you want or something else, like 29.97 frames per second), render the complete Timeline content to get the best possible preview of what you have, and then let us know the outcome.

           

          We will be watching for your results.

           

          Thanks.

           

          ATR

          1 person found this helpful
          • 2. Re: What is best practice for adding both 29.97 fps and 10 fps avi into one project?
            kellybellis Level 1

            ATR,

             

            I think the same thing, that there is an issue with the rendered output from SOM. I've written to the company that makes the recorder ('Pro') asking for greater details on its codecs and intial recording settings, both of which are pretty minimal:

             

            Initial recording options:

            SOM-fps.png

            It's not exactly clear at all what "Highest Possible" might translate into in quantified terms.

             

             

            And then on the rendered output options:

             

            SOM-video-type.png

            and

            SOM-video-quality.png

             

            As for what an actual example output might look like:

            SOM-GSpot.png

             

            I have not tried anything other than the AVI route as I believe PE prefers AVI over the other available output options - if I'm incorrect please set me straight on this.

             

            As for "Look at Microsoft Video 1.avi or H.264.mp4 if they are available choices.", I assume that you are referring to the available choices from SOM - correct?

             

            In your reply you stated "If your video is 1080p (1920 x 1080 @ 29.97 progressive frames per second)," - and to be honest, I believe so, but the word 'progressive' is missing from an example raw out from the 5dMk3:

             

            EOS-Gspot.png

             

            Thank you very much, I greatly appreciate your help.

             

            Kelly

            • 3. Re: What is best practice for adding both 29.97 fps and 10 fps avi into one project?
              A.T. Romano Level 7

              Kelly,

               

              A given file includes video and audio compression as well as a file extension. That file extension represents a wrapper (container format) that wraps the video and audio compression. The caution part is what these screen captures are actually outputting under the same of a given video compression.

               

              H.264.mp4 should be a good choice for Premiere Elements import, also DV AVI, Microsoft Video 1.avi, Windows Media Video 9.wmv, but you never know when you are going to get hit with the unexpected, such as one of these screen captures that does not import completely into Premiere Elements et al.

               

              I would put MP42.avi to the side for now and rule in or out H.264.mp4 or DV.avi or Microsoft Video 1.avi for the present. Each of these screen capturing programs comes with its own "considerations" to be overcome.

               

              If you make the choice of H.264 (MP4), what does that look like in gspot.

              I would think Video Codec H.264 with a mp4 file extension. Does that turn out to be the case?

               

              If you use Windows Media (.avi), what video compression and file extension is forced on you...MP24.avi or do you have a choice of the video compression, like DV to go along with the .avi container?

               

              FLV does not import into Premiere Elements (any version).

               

              Animated.gif is best kept away from for this purpose.

               

              Let us see what you can find out about these choices and then we can decide what next. Thank you.

               

              ATR

              • 4. Re: What is best practice for adding both 29.97 fps and 10 fps avi into one project?
                kellybellis Level 1

                Okay - good plan, and again ATR, I am very happy that you are taking the time to help me get through this - Thank you.

                A.T. Romano wrote:

                 

                H.264.mp4 should be a good choice for Premiere Elements import, also DV AVI, Microsoft Video 1.avi, Windows Media Video 9.wmv, but you never know when you are going to get hit with the unexpected, such as one of these screen captures that does not import completely into Premiere Elements et al.

                 

                And then there was this from AJ Gregory @ screencast-o-matic.com:

                 

                Hi Kelly I would suggest you save as MP4 which will save as h264 video.  The videos are usually 10fps unless you change the settings by clicking the "Show Advanced" option on the recorder controls to increase it.

                Thanks,

                -Aj

                 

                So the next set of tests today concentrated on rendering out of SOM, the 1920x1080 MP4, and when the result is played back straight up in a client, looks and sounds fine.

                GSpot test 0004.JPG

                 

                However, when that clip is brought into a new PE project, things get strange.

                 

                (1ST) Project settings:

                NTSC, DSLR, 1080p, DSLR 1080p30 @ 29.97

                 

                Importing the .mp4 file created by SOM and dropping onto Timeline results in no video being displayed and scrubbing results in only the audio being heard. If I place the mouse into the Project's view screen area where the video is supposed to be seen and click, the video is only then seen as the clip is now selected. Scrubbing results in seeing animated video and the audio being heard. So it seems that the preset coming into PE looks like is in need of a tweak maybe?

                 

                 

                Going ahead and rendering this clip out as a Windows media .wmv and then playing back in a client is smaller and less clear; both audio and video.

                 

                Rendering out 1920x1080 as an AVI; DV NTSC 29.97 fps, MicrosoftVideo 1, AND paying attention to the Aspect Ratio (in Advanced pull down options) resulted even worse appearance - suppose any rendering out is exaserbating the the problems of the incoming / importing.

                 

                Anyways, that's the results of the past several hours of trying to make SOM clips work in PE. I'll keep testing, but maybe this report will reveal something to eyes much wiser than mine.

                 

                Kelly

                • 5. Re: What is best practice for adding both 29.97 fps and 10 fps avi into one project?
                  A.T. Romano Level 7

                  Kelly

                   

                  I downloaded and installed the free Screencast-O-Matic screen capturing program. Windows 7 64 bit.

                   

                  If I select H.264 for the saved file for the screen capture, I appear to have H.264 video compression, AAC audio mono, file extension of .mp4, frame rate of 10 frames per second, and a frame size as indicated at the start of the screen capture - Full Screen being consistent with the native resolution/set of the computer monitor.

                   

                  The file is importing OK into my Premiere Elements 10 NTSC DLSR 1080p DLSR 1080p30 @ 29.97 - video and audio. I do not see any indexing taking place when the H.264.mp4 is imported into Premiere Elements 10.

                   

                  My first thought when I saw your report was that you were not waiting for indexing and conforming to take place as evidenced by a progress bar for that at the lower right corner of the workspace.

                   

                  Does the native resolution of your computer screen allow for recording Full Screen at 1920 x 1080?.

                   

                  Please update us on your progress. I will keep the screen capturing program installed for a while in case we want to do any cross comparison of results.

                   

                  More later.

                   

                  Thanks for the follow ups.

                   

                  ATR

                   

                  Add On...Do you have the latest version of QuickTime installed on your computer with Premiere Elements 10? Does you computer work with a NVIDIA video card?

                  • 6. Re: What is best practice for adding both 29.97 fps and 10 fps avi into one project?
                    kellybellis Level 1

                    Something happens when the SOM clip is cut - odd, but it's apparently avoidable. I just haven't discovered why or how to avoid this. Here's a SOM clip in PE all frames are good, then a cut, doesn't matter where, then the frames become a mix of good and bad. No wonder I'm half insane

                    • 7. Re: What is best practice for adding both 29.97 fps and 10 fps avi into one project?
                      the_wine_snob Level 9

                      With any GOP (Group of Pictures) Structure files, there can be issues with Cuts in the M-Frame (difference Frames), where the reference I-Frame is removed. I have encountered this mostly with MPEG encoded files, and AVCHD H.264 is a variation of MPEG. For more info on GOP, see this Tips & Tricks article: http://forums.adobe.com/message/2722687#2722687

                       

                      I am not saying that the GOP structure IS the cause of what you are seeing, but that it can cause issues, that look quite a bit, like what you have posted.

                       

                      Good luck,

                       

                      Hunt

                      1 person found this helpful
                      • 8. Re: What is best practice for adding both 29.97 fps and 10 fps avi into one project?
                        A.T. Romano Level 7

                        Kelly

                         

                        You have a red line over your TImeline content in your Premiere Elements 10 project.

                         

                        Please render it by pressing the Enter key of the computer main keyboard in order to get the best possible preview of what you have. When the Timeline rendering is completed, the red line will be green, indicating that you have the best possible preview of what you are seeing in the Edit area screen.

                         

                        Now do your cuts of the Timeline content and review what you have. Although most edits of the rendered Timeline will need rendering again after the edit, cutting the Timeline should not.

                         

                        Please give that a try to see if your Timeline cutting is now in control.

                         

                        Thanks.

                         

                        ATR

                        1 person found this helpful
                        • 9. Re: What is best practice for adding both 29.97 fps and 10 fps avi into one project?
                          A.T. Romano Level 7

                          Kelly

                           

                          After I posted my last post I saw Hunt's comments.

                           

                          I am working with the same Premiere Elements 10 version on Windows 7 64 bit and the same screen captures from the same source as yours. So, at this point I do not believe Hunt's explanation is applicable to this situation. See red line over your Timeline content, indicating unrendered Timeline.

                           

                          But let us see.

                           

                          Thanks.

                           

                          ATR

                          1 person found this helpful
                          • 10. Re: What is best practice for adding both 29.97 fps and 10 fps avi into one project?
                            the_wine_snob Level 9

                            ATR,

                             

                            You could well be correct. That was why I "hedged my bets," as we all know that similar results can have different causes - they might display behavior that "looks" like X, but be caused by Y.

                             

                            Good luck,

                             

                            Hunt

                            • 11. Re: What is best practice for adding both 29.97 fps and 10 fps avi into one project?
                              A.T. Romano Level 7

                              Hunt

                               

                              Yes, I did see your comment "....I am not saying...", but I wanted to make sure it was not being overlooked that comparable workspaces and source media were being looked at here between Kelly and I.

                               

                              Thanks.

                               

                              ATR

                              • 12. Re: What is best practice for adding both 29.97 fps and 10 fps avi into one project?
                                kellybellis Level 1

                                Thank you both for your replies.

                                 

                                @ATR - I am in the midst now of first rendering the SOM clip in a fresh PE project before making any cuts and will post the results in a short while as 20,000 frames takes several minutes to render. While I am perfectly willing to go this route and will be absolutely elated to see it work consistently, it seems less than intuitive that prerendering 20,000 frames when only one-quarter of them will be serviceable.

                                 

                                Okay... indexing is now complete - going in for the cut....

                                 

                                but wait - I realize that possibly the tool used (Ctrl + K) is making a difference... ? That's the tool I've been using all along... should Smart Trim be used instead?

                                • 13. Re: What is best practice for adding both 29.97 fps and 10 fps avi into one project?
                                  kellybellis Level 1

                                  Just in followup - I've stuck with the Ctrl + K method for now, for this experiment anyway...  and am rendering out the clip to .wmv ... will check back in in 42 minutes...

                                  • 14. Re: What is best practice for adding both 29.97 fps and 10 fps avi into one project?
                                    A.T. Romano Level 7

                                    Kelly

                                     

                                    When you cut a clip on the Premiere Elements 10 Timeline, the cut will be at the position of the Timeline Indicator.

                                     

                                    You can make the cut by placing the Timeline Indicator where you want the cut and using Ctrl+K. You will get the exact same results if you place the Timeline Indicator where you want the cut and click on the Split Clip (Scissors) icon at the bottom right of the monitor in the Edit area.

                                     

                                    Whatever screen capture you import into Premiere Elements, you need to wait for all indexing and conforming to complete as evidenced by the progress bar for that at the bottom right of the workspace.

                                     

                                    You do not have to render the Timeline content (red line over it to get the best possible preview) unless the Timeline content as is is too unstable for you to work with.

                                     

                                    I would suggest that you use the screen capture program's H.264 choice of saving formats. The Windows Media (.avi) gives you a MP42.avi which I would prefer not to work with in Premiere Elements. Nonetheless, both are being saved by the screen capture program OK and those saved screen captures are importing well completely into Premiere Elements 10.

                                     

                                    In Premiere Elements 10, I am not having any problems cutting either of these types of screen captures from your program, rendered or unrendered Timeline.

                                     

                                    Please review and then we can compare results further.

                                     

                                    Thanks.

                                     

                                    ATR

                                     

                                    Add On...No, to Smart Trim here.

                                    • 15. Re: What is best practice for adding both 29.97 fps and 10 fps avi into one project?
                                      A.T. Romano Level 7

                                      Kelly

                                       

                                      Just a just in case question...

                                       

                                      What are you rendering to wmv

                                       

                                      a. Do you mean saving your screen capture to Windows Media (.avi) choice in the screen capturing program

                                       

                                      or

                                       

                                      b. Importing into Premiere Elements 10 a screen capture saved to H.264 with the screen capturing program,  and then exporting that Timeline content to a .wmv file using Premiere Elements 10's Share/Computer/Windows Media?

                                       

                                      ATR

                                      • 16. Re: What is best practice for adding both 29.97 fps and 10 fps avi into one project?
                                        kellybellis Level 1

                                        Hi ATR,

                                         

                                        The results of rendering the Timeline (red line to green), then cutting have made no difference than if I had not rendered before the render out (Share). This failure has been duplicated... at least twice; however, it has also been seen more than once not failing. This lends credence to the idea that rendering the Timeline before or after the cut is irrelevant and that the location of the cut, its position in the Interleave sequence, and maybe that the clip is 10 fps, possibly are relevant.

                                         

                                        Perhaps the answer lies not in cutting the SOM clip with PE? But then you've indicated that you have not seen the issue when using any form of SOM clip and cutting them in PE - that is very encouraging news. Thank you for doing those experiments.

                                         

                                         

                                         

                                        The University is looking for a deliverable in .wmv format. You can see the first one I made which as I mentioned earlier was successful only because of happenchance.

                                        Part One - A Setback Study of True LiDAR Stories is in .wmv format (finally last night and after three days of head bashing) !

                                        http://panocea.us/SET/True%20LiDAR%20Stories/

                                         

                                        The MP4 out of the SOM screen recorder has not behaved in PE as well as the AVI out of SOM. At least the clip is visible in PE when imported in the AVI format. The MP4 is only visible if I click in the 'Monitor' part of the PE workspace.

                                         

                                        So in answer to your questions:

                                        a) yes, the AVI comes from SOM

                                        b) yes, the final edit is exported to .wmv

                                         

                                        and earlier above you asked about my monitor:

                                        Screen resolution: 2560x1440

                                        Monitor MultiSync PA272W, Calibrated with SpectraView II v1.1.16.02 (Build 140106)

                                        Graphics card: NVIDIA GeForce GTX 660, Driver 332.21

                                         

                                         

                                        The current experiment underway is running an SOM AVI clip through VirtualDub and have it convert it 10 to 30 fps.

                                         

                                        ...will report back in a bit.

                                        • 17. Re: What is best practice for adding both 29.97 fps and 10 fps avi into one project?
                                          A.T. Romano Level 7

                                          Kelly

                                           

                                          We will await your further results.

                                           

                                          Since you are a Premiere Elements 10 user whose computer uses a NIVIDIA video card I would definitely check out any unexplained issue in terms of the epidemic specific to Premiere Elements 10 NVIDIA users.

                                          http://forums.adobe.com/thread/1317675

                                           

                                          I am not seeing any problems with cutting the screen captures in Premiere Elements 10 (my video card is Intel HD Graphics)...be it H.264.mp4 or MP42.avi. I will watch your video again.

                                           

                                          If you have time, could you please explain in words what the issue is that you have when screen capture cutting enters the workflow. Maybe I am missing something in what you are telling me in the video?

                                           

                                          More later.

                                           

                                          Thanks.

                                           

                                          ATR

                                          • 18. Re: What is best practice for adding both 29.97 fps and 10 fps avi into one project?
                                            kellybellis Level 1

                                            Man! What an idictment! All of this proof and still NVIDIA turns a blind eye while Adobe appears indifferent. All of which makes trying a new editor increasingly compelling... and has there been any mention of these NVIDIA blues striking the owners of PE 12? I did see one mention (and its echo) of a single PE 11 user, but nothing on 12.

                                             

                                            While some of the data in that thread concerning specific drivers are clearly date stamped, the failure to state which specific driver was working is more often unclear; for example:

                                             

                                            Mcasman

                                            Premiere Elements 10

                                            NVIDIA GTX 580

                                            May 2013 worked; 327.23 and 331.40 did not.

                                             

                                            and then there was this:

                                             

                                             

                                            28. Bookbrowser74,

                                             

                                                

                                              Dec 14, 2013 9:42 AM    in reply to A.T. Romano 

                                            Report

                                            I’m all the way back to drivers from Feb 2013  314.07 and still have the problem, so I guess I am well and truly screwed.  Thanks anyway.

                                             

                                             

                                             

                                             

                                             

                                            I have old archives but can't get behind 314.22 (April 2013)

                                             

                                             

                                            Regardless of all of that mess, you are commended for sheparding the users which NVIDIA spurns.

                                             

                                            As for the words, my first post in opening this thread describes the issue and illustrates what happens almost all of the time after making a cut, though I hadn't made that connection of the cut being the trigger at the time of that writing - notice the blurry text in the first image.

                                             

                                            BTW & FWIW - The conversion from 10 to 30 fps in VirtualDub was unfruitful, but then again, I've never seen the program until a few hours ago. Never the less, it wasn't pretty what came out nor did it sound very good.

                                            • 19. Re: What is best practice for adding both 29.97 fps and 10 fps avi into one project?
                                              kellybellis Level 1

                                              In followup:

                                               

                                              I've gone ahead and have ordered PE12 in hopes that at least the tangential issue conjoined to these troubles that are also plaguing PE10 users with NVIDIA cards will be remedied. As a work around and for the meantime, the separate issue related the 10fps SOM clip, I've simply avoided making any cut of it in PE10 by dropping audio out and masking the video at the beginning and tail ends.

                                               

                                              Kelly

                                              • 20. Re: What is best practice for adding both 29.97 fps and 10 fps avi into one project?
                                                A.T. Romano Level 7

                                                Kelly

                                                 

                                                Thanks for the follow up.

                                                 

                                                If you do not want me to do any further first hand testing of SOM and Premiere Elements, I will uninstall SOM from my computer system today. So far I have not run into any of the problems with Premiere Elements 10 or other using the SOM screen captures whose formats you have posted (My computer operating system for this is Windows 7 Professional SP2 64 bit, Intel HD Graphics.)

                                                 

                                                We will watch for further developments in your work.

                                                 

                                                Since you have already opted for the purchase rather than the tryout of Premiere Elements 12, I would mention that  purchase from Adobe of the latest version should come with a within 30 day money back. Adobe is strict on the "within 30 days".

                                                 

                                                ATR

                                                • 21. Re: What is best practice for adding both 29.97 fps and 10 fps avi into one project?
                                                  kellybellis Level 1

                                                  ATR,

                                                   

                                                  Yes, please do rid your system of the SOM client and try and forget about it for a while

                                                   

                                                  I do so very much appreciate being able to interact with you, and all of your patient help. Even though no resolution to the issue has been discovered beyond the work around I described above, the little project for U Maine can proceed. I know that without this chance to bounce this back and forth with you, it would have taken me longer in getting there.

                                                   

                                                  Kind regards,

                                                   

                                                  Kelly

                                                  • 22. Re: What is best practice for adding both 29.97 fps and 10 fps avi into one project?
                                                    kellybellis Level 1

                                                    Post Note - Tuesday, February 25, 2014, 9:33 PM, VKB

                                                    Previous issues involving PE10 and up-to-date NVIDIA drivers have apparently been resolved with PE12.

                                                    • 23. Re: What is best practice for adding both 29.97 fps and 10 fps avi into one project?
                                                      A.T. Romano Level 7

                                                      Kelly,

                                                       

                                                      Thanks for confirming the good news that Premiere Elements 10 NVIDIA issue does not present in Premiere Elements 12.

                                                       

                                                      Great news.

                                                       

                                                      Hope all is going well with you and your work.

                                                       

                                                      Best wishes

                                                       

                                                      ATR