20 Replies Latest reply on Feb 18, 2014 3:20 PM by Evil Lair

    "Onion skin" compare two pages?

    Evil Lair Level 1

      Is there an easy way to compare two pages, where one is overlaid with varying opacity over another? I have a print project with a spot white ink on a second page and it would be handy to quickly compare things to be sure everything is lining up, without having to copy/paste between pages. Even better is being able to select objects from both pages at the same time to adjust them, which I'm always surprised you still can't do. (Using CS6 for the time being)

        • 1. Re: "Onion skin" compare two pages?
          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          I have a print project with a spot white ink on a second page and it would be handy to quickly compare things to be sure everything is lining up,

           

          What are you trying to line up? Is the spot white object on page 2 supposed to underprint an object on page 1—page 2 is acting like a spot separation plate?

          • 2. Re: "Onion skin" compare two pages?
            Evil Lair Level 1

            That is correct, the 2nd page is the manually created spot plate for the white ink with a combination of Indesign & psd elements. Not that I expect anything to be wrong, but it would be reassuring to have a way to double check nothing got adjusted on one page and not the other.

            • 3. Re: "Onion skin" compare two pages?
              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

              Why aren't you using a second layer on the same page instead of a second page?

              • 4. Re: "Onion skin" compare two pages?
                Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                I don't know how to build your document correctly - I make really boring forms for a living but I do know of this InDesign Secrets post that describes a way to visually diff two InDesign documents. I recall a Javascript that did something really similar - but I didn't keep links to either one, because I just open two docs and control-tab between 'em really fast. It's a lazy man's blink comparator.

                • 5. Re: "Onion skin" compare two pages?
                  Sandee Cohen Adobe Community Professional

                  Evil,

                   

                  Peter has asked the right question.

                   

                  A spot white color should be on the same page as the rest of the text.

                   

                  However, if you are having trouble seeing the spot white, you can change the appearance of the color of Paper so that it is dark enough for your spot white to be seen.

                   

                  However, I assume that this is actually a separate swatch defined as a spot color.

                   

                  You're not just using Paper are you?

                  • 6. Re: "Onion skin" compare two pages?
                    David W. Goodrich Level 3

                    I wrote'em both down: InDesignSecrets Podcast 116 and its link to Kasyans’ blog post and link to his CompareTwoDocuments script.  But I, too, tend to be lazy about this.

                     

                    David

                    • 7. Re: "Onion skin" compare two pages?
                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                      As a followup, I presume, as Rob has said, that you need the spot white to underprint. I would accomplish this by putting al the spot white objects on a single layer behind everything else, and SET ALL OF THESE OBJECTS TO OVERPRINT (bucause ID doesn't do an underprint). During the desing phase, your other objects will **** out your white stuff, but when you are done you can simply change the stacking order to move the white objects layer to the top, then your plates should separate correctly.

                      • 8. Re: "Onion skin" compare two pages?
                        Evil Lair Level 1

                        Thanks for all the help, I think Peter has it right and I should be doing it in layers instead of pages. This will be a white ink underprint on a foil paper, with regular CMYK on top. I tried setting up a new layer above my 2 CMYK layers with the white objects, and associated psd set to multiply, and can just turn it on/off when I need it. I think that will work great. I don't have any  spot colors to define the white, just going greyscale.

                         

                        The InDesign Secrets suggestion from Joel is pretty neat though, I keep forgetting you can get Inception-like on your InDesign documents like that.

                        • 9. Re: "Onion skin" compare two pages?
                          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          I tried setting up a new layer above my 2 CMYK layers with the white objects, and associated psd set to multiply, and can just turn it on/off when I need it. I think that will work great. I don't have any  spot colors to define the white, just going greyscale.

                          If all you want is white ink underprinting a CMYK image, you can make a white spot color, fill the image frame with it, and set the image to Multiply—don't need a spot color layer or a duplicate object to keep track of.

                           

                          So here I have the frame selected and filled with spot white and my cursor is showing White Ink printing at 100%:

                           

                          ScreenSnapz001.png

                           

                           

                          The image is set to multiply and when I turn off CMYK in Separation Preview you can see the white spot separation:

                           

                          Screen Shot 2014-02-17 at 8.18.39 PM.png

                           

                          You or the printer can then print the White Ink spot along with the CMYK separations:

                           

                          Screen Shot 2014-02-17 at 8.23.43 PM.png

                          • 10. Re: "Onion skin" compare two pages?
                            Evil Lair Level 1

                            I'm afraid my layout is a bit more complicated than that, with InDesign text/objects knocking out parts of the psd image to create space for the white. For example a paragraph of text will only be visible as white ink on the foil paper,   knocking out part of a background pattern in the CMYK portion.

                            • 11. Re: "Onion skin" compare two pages?
                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              For example a paragraph of text will only be visible as white ink on the foil paper,   knocking out part of a background pattern in the CMYK portion.

                               

                              Here I've given my spot white a 96|0|0 lab definition so you can always see it.

                               

                              Also, Peter mentioned that there's no "underprint" feature in ID, but there are Mixed Inks. In this example I've made a 50|50|0|0 CMYK swatch  and a 50|50|0|0 + 100spot Mixed Ink swatch, which effectively creates an under print of white.

                               

                              Screen Shot 2014-02-18 at 7.18.11 AM.png

                               

                              Screen Shot 2014-02-18 at 7.18.21 AM.png

                               

                               

                              With the spot color turned off you can see It's knocking out CMYK:

                               

                              Screen Shot 2014-02-18 at 7.18.41 AM.png

                               

                              Screen Shot 2014-02-18 at 7.11.58 AM.png

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                              • 12. Re: "Onion skin" compare two pages?
                                Evil Lair Level 1

                                Now that is slick. I've been using InDesign since 1.5 but just never do anything fancy like mixed inks before. My CMYK psd has an alternate spot white ink version as well, but I think using this method I can simplify even further.

                                 

                                So my layers look like this currently:

                                 

                                1 Spot white ink (plain greyscale version of everything, with white ink layout psd version set to multiply)

                                2 CMYK InDesign elements

                                3 CMYK layout psd

                                 

                                Going forward it can be this now, where I can flip between the CMYK and white ink psd layers as needed:

                                 

                                1 CMYK InDesign elements (with spot white mixed ink)

                                2 CMYK layout psd

                                3  white ink layout psd

                                 

                                One hitch I discovered is I have a linked .ai UPC code (plain 100% black) with a white underprint box to keep it readable, when I turn to the spot white separation the black UPC code graphic is knocking out the white when it should be solid.

                                • 13. Re: "Onion skin" compare two pages?
                                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                  You can set that to overprint by selecting it and opening the Attributes panel.

                                  • 14. Re: "Onion skin" compare two pages?
                                    rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    Going forward it can be this now, where I can flip between the CMYK and white ink psd layers as needed:

                                     

                                    1 CMYK InDesign elements (with spot white mixed ink)

                                    2 CMYK layout psd

                                    3  white ink layout psd

                                     

                                    You can't use a spot color in a layer in Photoshop, it has to be set up as a Spot Channel. So if you want to avoid the Multiply method I described, you can add a white Spot Channel to the PSD and get rid of layer 3. So here I've added a spot channel with the same "White Ink" name I'm using in ID:

                                     

                                    Screen Shot 2014-02-18 at 10.54.41 AM.png

                                    • 15. Re: "Onion skin" compare two pages?
                                      Evil Lair Level 1

                                      That worked the treat, the spot white channel in photoshop showed right up in InDesign so I don't need separate files/layers.

                                       

                                      I still have a few issues:

                                       

                                      I can't change the overprint of the UPC graphic. Either selecting the enclosing box or direct selecting the graphic, all of the overprint options are greyed out. I have a line of black ISBN text in InDesign just above the UPC that correctly gets filled in by the white ink box behind both, but the UPC won't disappear.

                                       

                                      How would I export a pdf of just the spot white? I would need it to show the client, as well in case the printer needs it separate.

                                      • 16. Re: "Onion skin" compare two pages?
                                        rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        but the UPC won't disappear.

                                        You'll have to open it in Illustrator and set it to overprint there.

                                         

                                        You can't export individual separation plates, you'll have to print separation(s) to a postscript file and use Distiller to generate the plate.

                                         

                                        For the printer you should be able to export a PDF/X which will include the CMYK plus spot plate. They'll be able to print 5-color separations from the composite file. You just have to communicate that it's there.

                                        • 17. Re: "Onion skin" compare two pages?
                                          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                          My example as PDF/x-1a in AcrobatPro:

                                           

                                          Screen Shot 2014-02-18 at 12.57.07 PM.png

                                          Screen Shot 2014-02-18 at 12.53.29 PM.png

                                          • 18. Re: "Onion skin" compare two pages?
                                            Evil Lair Level 1

                                            Setting the UPC to overprint in Illustrator solved that one, awesome.

                                             

                                            And now the *sad trombone*. Being able to easily output a pdf of the white ink from InDesign with the same exact page dimensions and placement as the CMYK, that someone can easily flip back and forth, is more important for me than any savings from streamlining the document setup. I will likely need to have 3 pdf versions of the same document (which will go through multiple iterations): a mockup, the CMYK and white ink for the client. Anything involving taking a trip to Distiller is going to change page dimensions and placement inside the document page, plus its more work than just doing it the way I was originally.

                                             

                                            Still, I learned some neat things from all the great help, I really appreciate it.

                                            • 19. Re: "Onion skin" compare two pages?
                                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              Anything involving taking a trip to Distiller is going to change page dimensions and placement inside the document page...

                                               

                                              that someone can easily flip back and forth

                                               

                                              You mean your client is sophistcated enough to want to check separations, but they don't have AcrobatPro? In AcrobatPro all you have to do is toggle Process Colors on and of in Overprint Preview

                                               

                                              Distilling won't change the page dimensions, just include crops or reg marks.

                                               

                                              Message was edited by: Rob Day

                                              • 20. Re: "Onion skin" compare two pages?
                                                Evil Lair Level 1

                                                It's a bit complicated but my client is in another country halfway across the globe and don't speak English, and expecting them to understand just the concept of multiple pages in a pdf is a bit of a stretch. Plus this is recreating something they've already done before, so the path of least resistance is to present everything as simple and consistant as possible.