34 Replies Latest reply: Feb 25, 2014 2:48 PM by third unkle RSS

    Relinking spanned clips

    third unkle Community Member

      I have received a project edited on PPro 7.1.0 with a number of Canon C300 spanned clips. I have PPro 7.2.1. When I relink the clips the spanned clips link incorrectly. In fact all the span clips have incorrect timecode. The original editor on PPro 7.1.0 brought in the span clips as individual clips with sequential timecode. When I import the clips they come in as clips all of the same length but the time code is way off eg a clip that should start at 01:01:31:17 starts at 01:17:18:18. This is really less than satisfactory and the fact that we need to hand this project back and forth is really going to make life very difficult. Adobe and Canon need to sort this span clip thing out. It's been going on for over a year now at I'm about to start loosing it... a trip to the post office might calm my nerves.

        • 1. Re: Relinking spanned clips
          third unkle Community Member

          now what is really bizarre is that I sent my project with all the incorrectly linked clips back to the editor who relinked them correctly... is there any way I can reinstall PPro 7.1.0?... it seems to be the only anomally

          • 2. Re: Relinking spanned clips
            third unkle Community Member

            OK... well it would seem that no one is that interested in this and no one from Abode is willing to help here which is very disappointing.

             

            Some further developments:

             

            We are working in 25p PAL btw on apple macs

             

            1. Both machines now have identical versions of Premiere Pro

             

            2. Both machines have identical import settings in preferences... are there any other settings hidden anywhere

             

            Importing mxf footage using Media Browser, shot Canon C300 running 1.0.9.1.00 firmware

             

            On my import of span clips I get the first of the spans being the full clip with the correct timecode. The other spans are also imported as full clips, but with the timecode starting at the beginning of the final span

             

            The import on the other editors machine is giving a very different result

             

            He gets each of the spans as individual clips with each clip being 5:15:21(PAL), which as far as I understand being the maximum span length with the final clip in the span group being shorter than the 5:15:21

             

            The other interesting thing here is that there are network drives involved at the other editors end and importing from the network drive give slightly different results to importing from a drive via USB3

             

            While all clips come in as separate clips... no spanning... the clips imported from the network drive are correct sequentuially correct

            The clips from the USB 3 drive will only play the first span of the clip although they are labelled spans xxxx01, xxxx02, xxxx03, etc

             

            As far as I know my footage was exported to a USB drive from the network drive at the other editors end

             

            I have imported footage into a new project and sent that project back to the editor... when he relinks the footage he gets the same results as described above

             

            I am working on a new mac pro... the other editor is on a iMac... the only thing I haven't checked is the version of OSX that he is using

             

            This now getting very tedious... something that should be very straight forward is now taking hours of time to try and sort out.

             

            Can someone please help... yes I'm looking at you Mr. Adobe

             

            cheers

             

            Pete

            • 3. Re: Relinking spanned clips
              Fuzzy Barsik Community Member
              I'm looking at you Mr. Adobe

              Uncle Adobe is out for the moment, he will call you later.

              it would seem that no one is that interested in this and no one from Abode is willing to help here

              Not that no one is interested in your issue. Rather you have one, which was answered several times in other threads. Check e.g. this discussion. Hope this helps.

              • 4. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                third unkle Community Member

                Thanks Fuzzy for the link. I has searched the forum before posting and had not seen that one. Currently trying an option of deleting the CIR files on the span clip cards to try and get my machine to match the other editors import results.

                 

                Very frustrating that something that should just work... and this is all part of the collaborative workflow that Adobe sells... doesn't, or at least can be compromised.

                 

                As someone noted on one of the other threads relating to the topic of spanned clips, we have been sold a dud by the camera maufacturers. With 4K workflows looming on the horizon I would think that we need a more robust technology, because just about every 4k clip will be spanned if we are still having to cater to file size restrictions impoesed by working with FAT32/NTFS technology.

                 

                Hopefully we can get rid of disc drives with moving parts and the world of SSD will improve things in that department...

                 

                The other issue I have is that how you get to actually talk to anyone at Abode is quite opaque. They seem to like the forums for problem solving and they work pretty well in 90% of the cases because it's new users with problems and the established users who frequent the forums are happy and able to help... respect...

                 

                But when it's a very specific and seemingly unique issue it becomes very difficult and if you are a professional, and most of us are, with clients waiting it becomes a major nightmare... I have spent about over a day (not chargable time) on this and finally have a work around (I think), but I what I really want to know is what exactly is going on and why, so I don't end up in the same place or somewhere similar again... and I don't think that is unreasonable.

                 

                rant over

                 

                thanks to all who helped on this thread and on the other thread here

                 

                cheers

                 

                Pete

                • 5. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                  Fuzzy Barsik Community Member
                  Very frustrating that something that should just work...

                  Agreed.

                  As someone noted on one of the other threads relating to the topic of spanned clips, we have been sold a dud by the camera maufacturers.

                  I don't support this point of view. Irrespective of which format a footage can be acquired a software dedicated for editing this footage must recognise it properly. Hardly any editor manipulate binary data stored in a particular file in order to edit what has been shot or recorded. If any acquisition format proved to be obsolete, it is naturally replaced with a newer one.

                  • 6. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                    JSS1138 Community Member

                    a software dedicated for editing this footage must recognise it properly.

                     

                    The point is that would be easier done without spanning and folder structures.  We never had these issues with DV media.  Moving to tapeless should have kept that simplicity, with self-contained files that can be renamed, moved or deleted as desired without breaking any functionality.

                     

                    The technocrats messed up with tapeless, adding unnecessary and unwanted complexity that then generates problems with NLEs and proper project management.

                    • 7. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                      Fuzzy Barsik Community Member

                      The only point here is that manufactures should provide comprehensive documentation for software developers on how to properly use all those file structures - that's it and has nothing to do with the file structure per se.

                      • 8. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                        JSS1138 Community Member

                        My point is that with a self-contained file, without these asinine folder structures, they wouldn't need to.

                         

                        So yes, they should solve the problem they created with proper documentation, but...they should not have created the problem in the first place.

                        • 9. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                          Fuzzy Barsik Community Member

                          And they didn't create any problem: both documentation and vendors' transfer utilities, which can convert camera assets to something more habitual are available.

                          • 10. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                            JSS1138 Community Member

                            Ah, but they did create problems.  The need for a transfer utility.  The inability of NLEs to always understand the structure.  Hell, even the need for NLE programmers to add that ability is wasted effort.  And worst of all, the inability to properly manage our media as we desire using a file manager.

                             

                            Those are all problems we did not have with DV, problems we should not have with tapeless.

                            • 11. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                              Fuzzy Barsik Community Member
                              Ah, but they did create problems.  The need for a transfer utility.

                              Well, with that point of view the problem was created much earlier: the need to copy data from a card to a computer.

                              The inability of NLEs to always understand the structure.

                              An NLE per se can't understand anything until a developer wrote some code. If a developer wrote buggy code, it has nothing to do with data he/she is trying to process with the code.

                              Hell, even the need for NLE programmers to add that ability is wasted effort.

                              Without an ability to write some code any new format would never be possible to import in any NLE.

                              And worst of all, the inability to properly manage our media as we desire using a file manager.

                              Jim, how often you manage core Windows files with the file manager as you desire?

                              • 12. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                                JSS1138 Community Member

                                with that point of view the problem was created much earlier: the need to copy data from a card to a computer.

                                 

                                No, that part was an improvement over realtime capture.  But...it should be possible to get a self-contained file without special software, using just a file manager.  That means the cameras have to write them that way, with nothing extraneous required that will break functionality if files are moved or renamed.

                                 

                                 

                                how often you manage core Windows files with the file manager as you desire?

                                 

                                 

                                It's the only thing I use to manage files.  I use to be able to rename my actual media on the disk as desired.  Now I can't.  That's a step back, in my view.  Not enough of one to make me want tapes, again.  But tapeless would have been a pure advance if it did things correctly, rather than the two steps forward and one step back it turned out to be.

                                • 13. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                                  Fuzzy Barsik Community Member
                                  it should be possible to get a self-contained file without special software, using just a file manager.

                                  As you know, you can copy a self-contained folder structure without using special software.

                                  I use to be able to rename my actual media on the disk as desired.  Now I can't.

                                  You can give a folder on disk, which contains respective subfolder structure, any name as you desire. It's quite similar to managing folders with image sequences. Nothing too complicated.

                                  • 14. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                                    JSS1138 Community Member
                                    As you know, you can copy a self-contained folder structure without using special software.

                                     

                                    Correct, and I do.  But I do not get the flexibility with moving, renaming or deleting those files afterwards.  That's what we long with tapless, that we had with DV.

                                     

                                     

                                    You can give a folder on disk, which contains respective subfolder structure, any name as you desire.

                                     

                                     

                                    True, but not at the file level, which is how I managed things with DV.  Self-contained files that break no functionality when you manage them with Explorer was the norm before tapeless.  It would have been better if we still had that with tapeless.

                                    • 15. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                                      Fuzzy Barsik Community Member

                                      The only issue with moving, renaming or deleting files inside the folder structure is ruining metadata, which are used for reading spanned clips only. Non-spanned clips are 'free' from that dependency. But as I already mentioned this limitation in managing all assets at a file level is just a matter of habits rather than a real issue.

                                      • 16. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                                        third unkle Community Member

                                        I would still really like to hear from someone from Adobe regarding this issue... as I said earlier, a workaround is not a solution and I still don't understand how data that is identical can be interpretted in different ways

                                        • 17. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                                          third unkle Community Member

                                          Just a quick update on the deletion of the CIF files. It had the desired effect (ie. clips were imported individually,not spanned) on all but one of the clips. The only difference with thi sclip was that it had 5 spans... all the others were 3 or less.

                                           

                                          Weird to say the least. The fact that it is this inconsistent points to there being issues. Hopefully we can get it fixed soon.

                                           

                                          cheers

                                           

                                          Pete

                                          • 18. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                                            third unkle Community Member

                                            the last word... threw away everything but the .mxf elements of the spanned clips and relinked them... now I'm seeing what I want, individual clips, no spanning... clearly all that metadata is screwing things up

                                             

                                            over to you Mr. Adobe and Mr. Canon... please get it sorted

                                             

                                            cheers

                                             

                                            Pete

                                             

                                            just say no to spanning

                                            • 19. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                                              Fuzzy Barsik Community Member
                                              over to you Mr. Adobe and Mr. Canon... please get it sorted

                                              That's exactly what Uncle Adobe accomplished in 7.2 update.

                                              • 20. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                                                third unkle Community Member

                                                Well I'm on 7.2.1 and I would beg to differ... maybe Canon undid their good work with a camera firmware update... I have read on these forums that Canon have a tendency to fix things in one release and then break them in the next and cameramen generally have little understanding of the intracasies of dealing with their files once they hand them over

                                                 

                                                From what I understand the span thing comes from file size limitations imposed by windows OS, altough I could be wrong.

                                                 

                                                These limitations were probably very acceptable 10-15 years ago. If you were writing that OS now and imposed a 2GB (am I right here) file size limit you'd get laughed out if the room especially in this part of the business

                                                 

                                                This thread is five days old and Adobe's absence is becoming  conspicuous

                                                • 21. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                                                  Fuzzy Barsik Community Member
                                                  Well I'm on 7.2.1 and I would beg to differ...

                                                  How so? Spanned MXF clips, which PrPro used to read incorrect are now properly recognised and you claim that being wrong?

                                                  • 22. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                                                    third unkle Community Member

                                                    Unless the span metadata has been corrupted... yes they are reading them incorrectly. Have another read of my earlier posts again. This is what is happening.

                                                     

                                                    Did they fix it on mac and pc? Was it a problem pc to start with? Maybe they only fixed the pc side of things.

                                                     

                                                    The problem with all this metadata is that it can get confused. Network drives would mess up the span clip metadata and cause the clips to play out of order. I have had experience of this.

                                                     

                                                    In this instance two different computers are interpretting the files in different ways... surely not a good sign

                                                     

                                                    I've been using PPro since the first version of CS6 on CC and it is now my preferred NLE having come from Avid and FCP. I've been a profesional editor for the past 20 years and I think I have a pretty good insight into how these things work and I have been through all the variations and permutations of this without a clear answer. The only thing I haven't been able to do is go back to the original camera files, because I don't have access to them.

                                                     

                                                    There are to many variables with span clips; span metadata, camera firmware, NLE coding, computer OS and then they get copied and moved around. The concept is just not robust as far as I'm concerned.

                                                     

                                                    The PPro media browser does not recognise my clips as Canon XF and will only see them as file directory. I would like to know whether this is correct.

                                                     

                                                    Also the Canon C300 firmware was version 1.0.9.1.00. Is this the latest version that Adobe has used to fix problems in 7.2.

                                                     

                                                    See... too many variables to consider when trying solve a problem... all caused by span clip technology.

                                                    • 23. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                                                      Fuzzy Barsik Community Member
                                                      Unless the span metadata has been corrupted... yes they are reading them incorrectly. Have another read of my earlier posts again. This is what is happening.

                                                      Sorry, I don't follow you. Your project was originally created in PrPro CC 7.1, PrPro read spanned clips as separate pieces and built Media Cache Database on this wrong assumption. Then the project was transferred to another machine with PrPro CC 7.2 installed, where it read them correctly and built proper Media Cache Database. Which metadata exactly was corrupted in this case?

                                                      • 24. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                                                        third unkle Community Member

                                                        Sorry to be confusing... the project I received was original created using 7.1.0 which imported the clips without spans. That system was subsequently upgrade to 7.2.1 and yeilded the same result

                                                         

                                                        When I imported the clips into my 7.2.1 (4) version I got the clips spanned incorrectly in a different way

                                                         

                                                        When I relinked the clips the xxx01 spanned correctly.... the subsequent spans were incorrect... as I was trying to reconform the edit this was most inconvenient and the fact that I had to make edit new edits and return them to be relinked at the other end made the situation untenable.

                                                         

                                                        If I imported the clips into a new project I would get the same result.

                                                         

                                                        I don't know whether the metadata was corrupted in any way. I was only allowing for that to be one possible cause

                                                        of the problems.

                                                         

                                                        Can the import process have any effect on the metadata and change it in some way? If this is possible then that may account for these anomolies.

                                                         

                                                        Once again... so many variables... it would seem that not that many people have a comprehensive knowledge of the span clip intricasies... I certainly don't.

                                                        • 25. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                                                          Fuzzy Barsik Community Member
                                                          When I imported the clips into my 7.2.1 (4) version I got the clips spanned incorrectly in a different way

                                                          Rather the opposite: you got correctly interpretted spanned clips in PrPro CC 7.2.1. Yes, they were interpretted differently. But the reason lies in their improper interpretation on the first machine, not on yours.

                                                          That system was subsequently upgrade to 7.2.1 and yeilded the same result

                                                          Did they delete all Media Cache Database entries and Media Cache Files and let PrPro rebuild Media Cache Database from scratch after update? I bet they did not and kept working with existing one.

                                                          • 26. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                                                            third unkle Community Member

                                                            OK... now we are getting somewhere... thanks Fuzzy... I didn't realise that the Media Cache Files and Database were independent of the project that the media was being imported into. To clarify, once media is imported onto a system that media is always imported in the same way across any project. That would certainly answer a number of questions that I haven't been able to resolve.

                                                            • 27. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                                                              Fuzzy Barsik Community Member

                                                              PrPro, AE and AME create Media Cache Database entries and Media Cache Files on importing assets into them. You can check the location of Media Cache Database and Media Cache Files in Preferences -> Media...

                                                               

                                                              Once Media Cache Database entries and Media Cache files were generated, they are shared not only between different projects of the same application, but between all three PrPro, AE and AME applications. They can be duplicated if an application has some issues with utilising existing Media Cache Database entries and Media Cache Files. If you manually delete them, they are rebuilt from scratch.

                                                              • 28. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                                                                third unkle Community Member

                                                                Thanks Fuzzy... this is where it's all come undone... that hopefully won't be happening again

                                                                 

                                                                cheers

                                                                 

                                                                Pete

                                                                • 29. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                                                                  Kevin-Monahan Adobe Employee

                                                                  third unkle wrote:

                                                                   

                                                                  I would still really like to hear from someone from Adobe regarding this issue...

                                                                   

                                                                  Hi third unkle,

                                                                  Sounds like you are sorting out your situation. Sorry it was so much trouble for you. BTW, you should know that this is a user to user forum, not an official support channel. Adobe participation in these threads is voluntary. I keep an eye on things, but it is quite impossible to answer every thread that comes up.

                                                                   

                                                                  Official contact channels: To give a bug report to the Premiere Pro team, here is a link: http://adobe.ly/ReportBug If you need support, use this link: http://helpx.adobe.com/contact.html

                                                                   

                                                                  Thanks,
                                                                  Kevin

                                                                  • 30. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                                                                    third unkle Community Member

                                                                    Thanks Kevin. While not totally resolved I do now have a clearer understanding of hoe PPro imports files and how to resolve these issues.

                                                                     

                                                                    Regarding contacting support I still don't see how I do that. I had submitted a bug report referring this thread, but beyond that how do I contact support? If I hit he Contact Support link on this forum it loops me back to the point where I started that leads to this forum in the first.

                                                                     

                                                                    I spent many hours thinking about this and searching and posting on the forum. I really believe that if I had been able to contact someone from Adobe directly it probably would have taken 30 minutes.

                                                                     

                                                                    I use CC on a daily basis and I am extremely happy with it and I can work most things out, but when I need assistance it seems quite difficult to get an answer to a specific problem.

                                                                     

                                                                    Cheers

                                                                     

                                                                    Peter

                                                                    • 31. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                                                                      Kevin-Monahan Adobe Employee

                                                                      Hi third unkle,

                                                                      Yes, sorry about that. On the support contact page for Premiere Pro, go to the option: Downloading, installing, and setting up and you'll see options for contacting support. Feel free to contact our agents there.

                                                                       

                                                                      Thanks,
                                                                      Kevin

                                                                      • 32. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                                                                        third unkle Community Member

                                                                        I'm sorry Kevin, but I'm not seeing anything there that leads me to a point where I can notify anyone at Adobe directly of my problem. Do you mean the premiuim user support options? Lots of links to forums and pdfs and so on. If that's all there is OK, but I would definitely have more confidence in solving problems if I could contact Abode dirtectly rather than have to rely on the goodwill of the forum members, especially when the going gets tricky and the forums do not point to a definitive solution.

                                                                         

                                                                        The forums are very helpful and I do use them when I have problems and generally with success. In this instance it took quite some time to sort out. Luckily it was not a sitaution that needed immediate resolution.

                                                                         

                                                                        cheers

                                                                         

                                                                        Pete

                                                                        • 33. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                                                                          Kevin-Monahan Adobe Employee

                                                                          Hi Pete,

                                                                          Here is a link to the contact page: http://www.adobe.com/support/download-install/supportinfo/

                                                                           

                                                                          Thanks,

                                                                          Kevin

                                                                          • 34. Re: Relinking spanned clips
                                                                            third unkle Community Member

                                                                            thanks Kevin... now bookmarked

                                                                             

                                                                            cheers

                                                                             

                                                                            Pete