28 Replies Latest reply: Apr 11, 2014 11:06 AM by forestcaver RSS

    "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences

    medphysiks

      I've got a problem with WB in Lightroom.  When I first import a raw image, it looks pretty decent with the "as shot" WB.  However, on some photos, the "as shot" tint is very off center.  For example, on a test shot yesterday, tint was -42.  The image looks fairly normal, though.  Now, as soon as I change the WB in Lightroom, the image is much too magenta colored.  I've noticed that as I cycle through the LR presets (auto WB, daylight, shade, etc) the temp adjustment seems reasonable, but it changes the tint by a huge amount.  So, going from "as shot" tint of -42, the auto setting puts it at 0, and the image is way too pink.  If I want to use any of the other WB settings in LR, I have to manually put the tint back to -42 or thereabouts.  See the images below.  Can someone tell me what is going on?

       

      My camera is a Nikon D3100 and LR is v5.3.  Under 'camera calibration' I am using the "camera standard" setting.  The weird thing is, if I switch this to "adobe standard", the as-shot tint is no longer -42.  Instead, it's much closed to 0, and all the presets function normally.

       

      Here is as shot:

       

      http://www.flickr.com/photos/116954917@N08/12784832704/

       

      Here is when I use LR's auto WB:

       

      http://www.flickr.com/photos/116954917@N08/12784831504/

        • 1. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
          ssprengel Community Member

          What light source was your snowflake and wall illuminated with?   Was it a daylight or other natural light source or a fluorescent bulb of some sort?

           

          Can you provide that test image by uploading to http://www.dropbox.com/ and post the public download link to it in a message?

          • 2. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
            medphysiks Community Member

            It was just in my living room with some late afternoon light filtering in, but no artificial lights on.  I shot it in auto WB on the camera.  I was at a park over the weekend and noticed the same thing with a few outdoor shots there.  The "as shot" tint was very negative when I imported to LR.  Could my camera profiles in LR be messed up?  If I switch back to adobe standard, the as shot results are more normal.

             

            You want me to upload the nef file?  I can do it this evening when I get home if that'll help.  Thanks for your reply!

            • 3. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
              medphysiks Community Member

              Here's the link to the nef file.  I didn't use dropbox, but this should work, too.  Also, I called tech support and they really weren't any help.  I told him that the "camera standard" profile seemed to be where the problems were occurring, so he basically said, just use the adobe standard profile instread.

               

              If you open the raw file, look at it "as shot" and see what you think, then switch to auto WB and see what happens.

               

              http://wikisend.com/download/493016/DSC_0072.NEF

              • 4. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
                bhousto90 Community Member

                I do not think that there is any problem.

                 

                For RAW files: "as-shot" white balance Temp/tint should be read directly from your RAW file based on the initial WB the camera used (whether it was set to auto or another preset value).

                The Temp/Tint will be adjusted up/down to compensate for using different Camera calibration settings. (When editing you can override that initial setting and are free to change it to the exact colour temp/tint you desire)

                 

                However, when editing/viewing a JPG image the TEMP/TINT will both start out at 0 in Lightroom as all WB settings are 'baked' into the file and there is no compensation required nor is there a specific temp shown. (When editing you are just going to make warmer/cooler +/-  etc settings so starting at zero makes most sense.)

                 

                 

                And the WB presets are just that (with exception of auto) Daylight will be 5500/+10,  Cloudy will be 6500/+10 etc when applied to any photo.

                 

                 

                 

                When you using the LR auto preset and it is adding too much of a magenta cast to your photo that is most likely due to the algorithm being fooled by the excess green/cyan sparkles in the snowflake and it is attempting to balance that out (although not too successfully)

                 

                _

                Bruce

                • 5. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
                  medphysiks Community Member

                  That makes sense.  The only weird thing is when switching camera calibration profiles.  Why does 'as shot' with adobe standard have a tint of +8, but 'as shot' with the camera standard profile has -42?  I would think as shot would mean exactly that, so how can it be different?  Also, why does auto WB work fine when the adobe profile is in use, but not when the camera profile is in use?

                  • 6. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
                    ssprengel Community Member

                    Temp and Tint numbers are not constant, they are in terms of the particular camera profile being used, as you have seen.

                     

                    The camera-measured neutral color is represented by 3 sets of 3 numbers, one set each for red, green, and blue—a 3x3 color matrix.

                     

                    To convert the neutral color matrix to just two numbers, temp and tint, there is a mathematical process that depends on the color profile you have selected.

                     

                    An off-zero Tint number usually means the light-source wasn’t from something hot like the sun or a tungsten filament, but from glowing gas like in a fluorescent tube or other high-pressure gas lighting, or perhaps a reflection from a non-neutral surface like green grass or red brick wall or colored-car through the window.

                    • 7. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
                      Jao vdL Community Member

                      The change of the white balance numbers between profiles is not normal. This doesn't happen for my cameras and as far as I know shouldn't happen at least not to this degree. I see it happen with your nef file indeed which makes me think it is isolated to that model camera. Also, the auto white balance does a rather bad job here. It appears to me that something is wrong with the camera matching profiles for this camera.

                      • 8. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
                        medphysiks Community Member

                        I suspect it has something to do with the profiles, too.  I never had this issue until I stopped using adobe standard and started using camera standard.  Also, the image looks normal in Nikon's NX software (free version).

                         

                        Does someone know if there's a tech person I can email or contact at Adobe?  My phone call last night was pretty useless.

                        • 9. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
                          sandy_mc Community Member

                          This is actually normal - in short, the color temp and tint are represented in a raw file as XY color coordinates (or equivalent). To go from XY to real colors involves the matrix in the camera profile. So if you use a different camera profile, the color temp and tint can change if the matrix is different. Sometimes, quite a lot  - I once had a image that changed by 4000K. The reason for the large change is that color temperature is based on the color of a "black body" at that temperature. As temperature changes, the color traces a line through color space. In places, that line is quite flat, so small changes in profile can cause big changes in the reading.

                          • 10. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
                            medphysiks Community Member

                            Thanks, Sandy.  So basically, the tint from the raw image translates to one number (-42, in this case) when using the camera standard profile, but when using the adobe standard, it goes to +8? 

                             

                            The auto WB not working in LR is still confusing me.  Why does it produce a reasonable result for temp and tint when using adobe standard, but not camera standard?

                            • 11. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
                              ssprengel Community Member

                              There are very bright but small green spots from the glitter reflections, where if the Auto WB is taking those into account, things would be shifting magenta to compensate. 

                               

                              The difference in Auto WB using Adobe Standard vs the Camera-centric profiles is a little strange to me, too, but a theory would be that the green specular highlights are handled differently by the Adobe Standard profile and are not “seen” by the Auto WB algorithm, but when the Camera-centric profiles are used, the green specular highlights are somehow significant in what the Auto WB looks at.  Without seeing a 3D plot of how bright green responds to each profile it’s hard to know.

                              • 12. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
                                medphysiks Community Member

                                That sounds reasonable.  I'll have to look at some of my other shots, but I've noticed a similar thing with them, too.  I have one of a large birdhouse on a pole.  In the shot, it's only the birdhouse and a lot of semi-cloudy sky in the background.  The as shot tint using the camera-centric profile is again a very negative number.  Using LR auto WB gives a pinkish cast to everything.  I'd have to check, but I believe I shot that photo using the "cloudy" preset in the camera.

                                 

                                Nikon's NX software seems to work great, but it's horribly slow.  I really like LR, aside from this weirdness.

                                • 13. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
                                  ssprengel Community Member

                                  To test things well, shoot a piece of white paper in outside daylight, either sunny or cloudy, and then try AutoWB.  If it still shifts magenta then something is wrong with the Camera-centric profiles.

                                  • 14. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
                                    Jao vdL Community Member

                                    That shift between profiles is much too large though. I've never seen

                                    anything this large, not even for profiles I generated myself from a color

                                    checker chart under weird lighting conditions where you would expect it.

                                    For all my Nikon cameras, when changing between Adobe supplied profiles

                                    (Adobe standard to camera standard for example), the as-shot white balance

                                    values are identical. It really looks to me like the camera matching

                                    profiles for this camera are off.

                                    • 15. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
                                      medphysiks Community Member

                                      ssprengel, I'll give that a try.

                                       

                                      Jao, something definitely seems fishy.  I'm using a D3100, which seems to be a pretty popular camera.  I'm just wondering why no one else has had this issue yet.  I know LR 5.3 is still pretty new.  I wonder if something happened to the profiles in the new version?  I wish I could just get a hold of someone at Adobe who knows what they're doing.  The customer service rep in the call center meant well, but he really didn't help.

                                      • 16. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
                                        Jao vdL Community Member

                                        I checked a few raw files from

                                        http://www.photographyblog.com/reviews/nikon_d3100_review/sample_images/and

                                        they do the same thing. Huge shifts in WB when going from Adobe

                                        Standard to Camera Standard. Never seen anything this large.

                                         

                                        Considering entering something here:

                                        http://feedback.photoshop.com/photoshop_family

                                        • 17. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
                                          medphysiks Community Member

                                          Thanks for checking that.  I'll look into that feedback link.

                                          • 18. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
                                            thedigitaldog CommunityMVP

                                            The values depends on how the custom profile was built. The as shoot WB mapping to the Tint/Temp values are defined in a ColorMatrix tag in the DNG profile. It takes native camera RGB values and CIE XYZ values to set the numbers you see in the UI. All the Adobe supplied profiles are dual illuminant using D65 and Standard Illuminant A. The matrices are used for the RGB values which would record under those illuminants. This is based on whatever camera sample Adobe gets to build their profiles which can differ from yours.

                                             

                                            We someone builds a custom DNG profile, the ColorMatrix values based on that sensor maps between camera RGB values and CIE XYZ values for WP and if there are differences, the reported Tint/Temp values will differ. Which makes sense. So the numbers reported in Tint/Temp depend on the profile and if the profile changes from Adobe's, the values seen in the UI change too.

                                            • 19. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
                                              trshaner Community Member

                                              The OP is seeing WB setting differences between the Adobe supplied 'Adobe Standard' and 'Camera Standard' camera profiles for the Nikon D3100. They should have been created with the same camera and procedure, which would result in both having the same WB settings for 'As Shot.'

                                               

                                              On all my Canon cameras they are the same.

                                               

                                              (5D MKII in-camera   'Daylight' (5200) WB setting)

                                               

                                              LR 'As Shot' WB Readings

                                              Adobe Standard & Camera Standard =  4850, +1

                                              CCPP Daylight created profile = 4850, +8

                                               

                                              LR 'Custom' WB using the CCPP Daylight image and WB Eyedropper

                                              Adobe Standard & Camera Standard  = 5200, 10

                                              CCPP created profile = 5275, +16

                                               

                                              The LR interpretation of the 'As Shot' Daylight WB setting deviates from the 5200 in-camera setting for all profiles, but when WB'd using the CCPP neutral patch they ALL are very close to the in-camera 5200 Daylight setting

                                               

                                              Either way I don't see the large difference between the Adobe Standard and Camera Standard 'As Shot' WB readings with any of my Canon DSLRs.

                                              • 20. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
                                                MadManChan2000 Adobe Employee

                                                I will fix this problem for our next dot release (Lr 5.4 / ACR 8.4).  The ColorMatrix tags in the D3100 Camera Matching profiles have the wrong values, which explains all of the irregular WB-related behavior described above.  Unfortunately this fix means that for images where you've manually adjusted the WB while using one of the CM profiles, you'll likely need to fix the WB on those images again once the next dot release comes out. 

                                                • 21. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
                                                  medphysiks Community Member

                                                  Thanks a bunch for your help with this!  I thought I was losing my mind for a minute

                                                  • 22. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
                                                    Jao vdL Community Member

                                                    Thanks Eric,

                                                     

                                                    I knew you were on the ball

                                                     

                                                     

                                                    On Fri, Feb 28, 2014 at 12:10 PM, MadManChan2000

                                                    • 23. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
                                                      forestcaver Community Member

                                                      Just found this thread - so you want us to go back and re-edit thousands of images that you have broken with 5.4 !!! Unbelievable!

                                                       

                                                      Absolutely incredible - you have broken thousands of images in an obsolete camera and expect the users to go back and re-edit the in order to print them or use them from 5.4...,

                                                       

                                                      Are you mad or just want users to fix all their images as tiffs before upgrading?

                                                      I suspect I will ditch lightroom because of this...  I am that angry at your irresponsible contempt for my the value of my time! Do you have any conception how many hours that would require?

                                                       

                                                      Please fix the broken D3100 raw file in 5.4 !!!! You have made LR unusable for me from 5.4 onwards.

                                                      • 24. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
                                                        medphysiks Community Member

                                                        I feel your pain, but the camera profile for the D3100 was broken in LR 5.3 and now it's fixed in the new version.  I usually just save my photos as jpeg when I'm done playing with the raw file, but I can see how it will affect users like you.  Maybe Adobe can make the old (broken) camera profile available for use, and give us a choice between using the old one or the new (corrected) one?

                                                         

                                                        As a side note, I tested LR 5.4 with a raw file from my camera and it works much better now when using the "camera standard" profile.  The tint slider is no longer way off center and auto WB seems decent again.

                                                        • 25. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
                                                          trshaner Community Member

                                                          There is a solution that doesn't require modifying any of your current image files. Download and install the free X-Rite DNG ProfileManager:

                                                           

                                                          http://blog.xritephoto.com/2013/11/x-rite-colorchecker-passport-dng-profile-manager/

                                                           

                                                          1) Move the LR5.4 Nikon D3100 Camera profiles to your 'Custom' Camera profile folder:

                                                           

                                                          http://members.lightroomqueen.com/Knowledgebase/Article/View/1373/205/lightroom-5-default- locations#7

                                                           

                                                          On Windows the Camera profiles are located here: C:\ProgramData\Adobe\CameraRaw

                                                          (I'm not sure where they are located on a OS X system, perhaps someone can provide the location.)

                                                           

                                                          2) Rename them using the X-Rite DNG ProfileManager with a '-V2' (EX- Camera Standard-V2) so you can identify them. You'll need to rename the file with the camera model using Explorer or Finder, since it  uses the edited profile name for the file name.

                                                           

                                                          3) Next install LR4 or LR5.3 and copy the old Nikon D31000 Camera profiles to a folder on your desktop. Reinstall LR5.4, remove  the D3100 Camera profiles, and replace them with the files copied over from LR4 or LR5.3. No need to rename them. They will automatically reassociate wth all images previously assigned.

                                                          • 26. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
                                                            ISeward Community Member

                                                            I can understand your outrage but with sogtware sometimes these things happen, no one is perfect.  Hopefully there is no need to correct all of your old files only those shots which you revisit to reprint / reuse for some purpose.

                                                            • 27. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
                                                              trshaner Community Member

                                                              Replacing the five LR5.4 D3100 'Camera' profiles with the original files used in LR5.3 and earlier versions is the easiest way to "fix" images that have WB adjustments applied  prior to LR5.4.  The downside is that you will need to  replace the D3100 Camera profiles every time you update or upgrade LR. It is also possible Adobe will rename  the new D3100 Camera profiles in the future, which means the same issue can occur again.

                                                               

                                                              A better solutions is to move ALL of the D3100 Camera files to your "user" custom Camera profiles folder, including renaming the LR5.3 profiles -V1 and LR5.4 profiles -V2. The profiles in this folder are never removed or updated when you install a new version of LR. You'll need to manually "re-associate" your image files with the renamed -V1 original camera profile, which can be done using a LR plugin filter such as 'Any Filter' or 'Data Explorer.' If your Default Develop settings or a Develop preset use one of the 'Camera' profiles make sure to reset it to the renamed profile in your "custom" Camera profiles folder. Just remember NOT to use the Adobe 'Camera' profiles in the future, just the -V1 and -V2 profiles that appear in the list.

                                                              • 28. Re: "As shot" vs white balances in Lightroom: big differences
                                                                forestcaver Community Member

                                                                Thanks all - what I did last night was copy the 5.3 profiles and change the name in the DNG profile editor. I then placed those profiles in the user area (AppData\roaming). I am now in the process of changing the profile for each photo!

                                                                Interestingly if WB is "as shot" no change is needed, only if the wb has beem chaged.

                                                                 

                                                                I understand software changes - but companies usually try not to screw up 4 years of work for limited return - I could understand if they cocked up with a new camera and instantly rushed out a fix. However they are affecting 4 years of photos with no backward compatability.

                                                                 

                                                                With respect ISeward, saying only change photos you want to reprint is not helpful - may as well say just delete every photo after you've printed it. I dont know exactly which photos will be needed for publication in the future or where they may need printing or what colour profile the publisher would want....

                                                                It defeats the raison d'etre of lightroom - you could just as well dump to tiff instantly....

                                                                 

                                                                Thanks all - just very surprised at adobe's incompetence in this case - it's pretty shocking and just plain braindead not to provide backwards compatability..... what a bunch of muppets!