20 Replies Latest reply on Mar 12, 2014 8:23 AM by A.T. Romano

    The (new) Premiere pixel aspect ratio is wrong for my PAL DV cam footage

    TomPelvis

      I've had a Sony TRV-950E DV-cam since 2003. I've been shooting DV PAL in widescreen.

      I just bought Elements 12 to edit my footage, and discovered that the pixel aspect ratio for D1/DV PAL Widescreen has been updated to 1.46 (old value 1.42).

      The theory behind this change is that video recorded on 720x576 is slightly wider than 16:9 and that the 16:9 portion is 704x576.

       

      Unfortunately this is not correct for my footage! I've captured the video from my DV-cam (by firewire) and opened it in Premere and it is streched to be shown as 1050x576.

      So I did a test:

      I filmed a steady shot of a perfect circle and captured the video from the camera and opened it in Premiere. The pixel ascpect ratio 1.46 makes the display 1050x576.

      The question is: Am I seeing this displayed as a perfect circle now?

      This can be tested:

      I make a picture of a perfect circle in Photoshop (square pixels) with size 1024x576. I imported this picture into the Premiere project, and match the two circles: The filmed one, and the Photoshop one.

      They DO NOT match! The one on the video is slightly stretched in width.

       

      So then I stretch the Photoshop picture in width to become 1050x576. I then import this picture into the project. And now I have a perfect match between the circles!

       

      This means that my DV camera actually records a 100% 16:9 picture on all the pixels 720x576 - and not a slightly wider picture with the 16:9 part being in 704x576 (which is the reason for the change in pixel aspect ratio from 1.42 to 1.46).

       

      I have some HD scenes that I want to import (and downscale) into my SD project also, and I also have a lot of still pictures.

      Unless I can change the setup i Elements to the correct ratio 1.42, these stills and sqare-pixel-video (HD) should ideally be streched from 1024x576 to 1050x576 to match (become equally stretched as) all the SD footage.

       

      How do I solve this?

      I just bought Elements 12 three days ago.

      (I just tried opening the captured video in Windows Movie Maker - and that program must use pixel aspect ratio 1.42 since the video is diplayed correctly as 1024x576 with a perfect circle)

       

      Regards,

      Tom from Norway

        • 1. Re: The (new) Premiere pixel aspect ratio is wrong for my PAL DV cam footage
          A.T. Romano Level 7

          TomPelvis

           

          It would appear that after Premiere Elements 7, the PAL DV Widescreen pixel aspect ratio for the project preset was changed from 1.422 to 1.4587... the pixel aspect ratio used in the export PAL DV AVI Widescreen preset.

           

          I have done some tests for what you are describing, and I am not having problems with "the perfect circles".

           

          a. If I create a circle in a Premiere Elements 7 PAL DV Widescreen project and export that Timeline to a PAL DV AVI Widescreen file saved to the hard drive and then import that PAL DV AVI Widescreen File into Premiere Elements 12 PAL DV Widescreen project, my circle remains a perfect circle.

           

          norwaycircle.JPG

          Here I have left the default Edit Menu/Preferences/General "Default Scale to Frame Size" with check mark next to it.

           

          You talk about HD projects, assumed HDV video 1080i25 which has a pixel aspect ratio of 1.333. (HD anamorphic 16:9)

          Versions of 4 through 12 use the pixel aspect ratio of 1.333 for HDV 1080i30.

          So, when you bring your HDV circle, into a Premiere Elements 12 (now 12.1) PAL HDV HDV 1080i25 project, no problem with the perfect circle.

           

          Now you come to the case of a mixed Timeline content of your PAL DV AVI Widescreen and your PAL MPEG2.mpg 1440 x 1080 HD anamorphic 16:9.

          Premiere Elements (any version) allows for one project preset. If you have a mixed Timeline content, then you need to set priorities and then fit the other into the project settings.

           

          If you have a Premiere Elements 12 PAL DV Widescreen project

          a. You should have no problems with video distortion, using your PAL DV AVI from your DV Data capture firewire

          b. When you bring your HDV into this project, you should still have your circle, but there will be small black borders to the right and left of the image.

          You then scale the image to get rid of the black borders. The circle is still a circle.

           

          HDVto 12.JPG

          scaled version would look like

           

          scaled.JPG

          If you had photos to import into the project you might crop/resize beforehand or import them into the project and then

          scale them to fit the Edit area monitor space which was established by the choice of your PAL DV Widescreen project preset.

           

          And when you take your mixed Timeline to export Publish+Share/Computer/AVI with the preset PAL DV Widescreen, all should be well.

           

          Thanks.

           

          ATR

          • 2. Re: The (new) Premiere pixel aspect ratio is wrong for my PAL DV cam footage
            TomPelvis Level 1

            Thanks ATR,

            But you have to do your tests with source video shot with a camera. The whole reason for why they have changed the pixel aspect ratio is because it is said that the "real" 16:9 filmed video is stored on 704x576 pixels. The extra 8 pixels on each side makes the whole filmed picture a little wider that 16:9. Unfortunately this is not correct when filming with my Sony camera. It saves a perfect 16:9 aspect filmed picture on the whole storage resolution 720x576.

            I just tried doing the same test with a newer camera: Sony Handycam HDR-CX305E (filming in SD PAL Widescreen mode). But the same thing happens. The 720x576 file has to be scaled to 1024x576 to reproduce the same "perfect circle" that I filmed. Adobe Premiere Elements however shows the circle slightly too wide (the picture being streched to the 1050:576 aspect).

             

            I can send you the test videos so you can see this for yourself!

             

            Perhaps Sony has always recorded the 16:9 or 3:4 pictures in the full resolution 720x576 while cameras by other vendors have saved the 16:9 or 4:3 as only 704x576 thus filming in a slightly wider mode?

             

            Is there any way I can import/alter the pixel aspect ratio in Premiere Elements 12?

             

            Tom

            • 3. Re: The (new) Premiere pixel aspect ratio is wrong for my PAL DV cam footage
              A.T. Romano Level 7

              Tom

               

              Would it be possible to send a sample of the videos involved via a Dropbox link that you post in your reply in your thread here in the Premiere Elements Forum? I would be glad for the opportunity to work with them. Do not post anything that would invade your privacy since what is posted in the threads is seen by all.

               

              I am not Adobe, just a Premiere Elements user who has worked a lot with the versions of the program since 2005.

              If there are any opportunities for changes in this regard, they are likely to be in editing the Notepad document of a project import preset or project export preset. But, in this specific case, I am not ready to say that is possible or the way to go on this yet.

               

              Thanks for the reply and looking forward to your follow up.

               

              ATR

              • 4. Re: The (new) Premiere pixel aspect ratio is wrong for my PAL DV cam footage
                TomPelvis Level 1

                I postet the files using filemail.com, so anybody can now download them from here: (available for 7 days only)
                http://www.filemail.com/t/0c91d18288394d6db0b4c5262645f78a

                There are the two snippets I filmed with each Sony camera. I also put the circle.jpg file there ("perfect circle" on a 1024x576 square pixel image) and circle-stretch.jpg (the same picture stretched in width to 1050x576).

                I tested by adding the jpgs on a video track above the track where I put the video. And for the jpg stills I changed opacity and changed scale and position (in Motion) while keeping "constrain proportions" checked - tweaking until the circles where placed correcty on top of the underlying circle in a video frame.

                 

                The circle-stretch.jpg matches the aspect of video - and proves that the pixel aspect ratio 1.4587 is wrong for this footage. Should have been 1.4222.

                 

                Hope ATR or others out there see the same as me, and perhaps knows a way to change the pixel aspect ratio in Premiere to be correct for my Sony DV Widescreen footage. Or have other tips?

                 

                Tom

                • 5. Re: The (new) Premiere pixel aspect ratio is wrong for my PAL DV cam footage
                  A.T. Romano Level 7

                  Tom

                   

                  I just downloaded your files and am about to open them for testing.

                   

                  Thank you for the opportunity to work with them.

                   

                  More later.

                   

                  ATR

                  • 6. Re: The (new) Premiere pixel aspect ratio is wrong for my PAL DV cam footage
                    nealeh Level 5

                    Objectively I don't see it myself, but that is maybe because the error is so small in percentage terms. I took a different approach to your problem.

                     

                    What I did was to use the Titler and draw guidelines top/bottom left/right of the CD. Then, still in Titler drew a perfect circle (using Shift modifier) starting at top left and dragging down to bottom right.

                     

                    With the CX305 footage it looked to me a perfect match. With the 950E footage I could maybe convince myself it wasn't quite perfect. But, if it wasn't, it was so close that I really had to be looking for a fault which probably biased my thinking anyway.

                     

                    Cheers,
                    --
                    Neale
                    Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your children

                     

                    If this post or another user's post resolves the original issue, please mark the posts as correct and/or helpful accordingly. This helps other users with similar trouble get answers to their questions quicker. Thanks.

                    • 7. Re: The (new) Premiere pixel aspect ratio is wrong for my PAL DV cam footage
                      TomPelvis Level 1

                      Thanks Neale,

                      You're right regarding that CX305 footage that was shot with HD camera in SD Mode! So that downscaling internally in the camera (or how it works) use the new pixel aspect ratio. My mistake there.

                       

                      But the SD camera (TRV-950E) is the most interesting one, since SD source material more likely comes from miniDV tapes from old DV cams  (rather than HD cams working in SD mode).

                       

                      Was Sony TRV-950E the only DV camera to record frames with aspect ration 16:9 onto 720x576. Did all others film a wider picture and save 16:9 onto 704x576?

                      My guess would be that all DV camcorders (pre-HD camreas) did the same as TRV-950E.

                       

                      The TRV-950E is my camera, so all my last 10 years of footage is shot with pixel aspect ratio 1.4222 :-(

                       

                      Isn't there some way I can change setting/copy an older settings file or something to make Premiere Elements work with PAL D1/DV Widescreen 1.4222.

                      If Premiere7 was the last with 1.4222, isn't there a file from that setup that can be (temporarily) replaced within the version for Premere 12?

                      Anyone who knows if I can make a "hack" or something to make Premiere 12 use pixel aspect ratio 1.4222 ?

                       

                      Tom

                      • 8. Re: The (new) Premiere pixel aspect ratio is wrong for my PAL DV cam footage
                        A.T. Romano Level 7

                        Tom

                         

                        I am working on what you seek.

                         

                        But I want to road test it fully before I ask you to look at it.

                         

                        My first impression is what you seek are small difference of questionable consequences as it relates to what you are calling perfect circles.. Nonetheless, what I am working on should give you exactly waht you want.

                         

                        Can I assume that you want to import as PAL DV Widescreen and export as PAL DV Widescreen (to saved file or to burn to disc)?

                         

                        ATR

                        • 9. Re: The (new) Premiere pixel aspect ratio is wrong for my PAL DV cam footage
                          TomPelvis Level 1

                          I found an xml file in my installation:
                          C:\Program Files\Adobe\Adobe Premiere Elements 12\Settings\SequencePresets\PAL\DV\Widescreen 48kHz.sqpreset

                           

                          I replaced <VideoPixelAspectRatio>1024,702</VideoPixelAspectRatio> with <VideoPixelAspectRatio>1024,720</VideoPixelAspectRatio> in that file.

                          Started Premiere and opened a new project and chose setting PAL Widescreen 48kHz. And now my monitor in Premiere is exactly 16:9. I tried to import a HD clip ("scale to frame size") and now this video matches the frame perfectly.

                           

                          But when I import the clip from TRV-950E, it is still resized with the new ratio 1.46. So there must be another place I must change something also...

                           

                          Tom

                          • 10. Re: The (new) Premiere pixel aspect ratio is wrong for my PAL DV cam footage
                            TomPelvis Level 1

                            When I right-click on a video file in Elements 12 I can choose "Scale to Frame Size". This uses constrain proportions (which usually is what I need). But is there a similar way to make scaling work without constrain proportions? That is to make the video stretch to fill the full frame.

                            I only know of Applied Effects and manually adjusting scale under "Motion" (after unchecking the Contrain proportions box there). Shouldn't there be an easier way?

                             

                            Tom

                            • 11. Re: The (new) Premiere pixel aspect ratio is wrong for my PAL DV cam footage
                              A.T. Romano Level 7

                              TomPelvis

                               

                              You really did not need me. I just got finished roading and refining my how to for what you have asked only to return to the thread to find that you have posted the essence of what I worked on since I downloaded your files for evaluation. Frustrating, but happy for you.

                               

                              So, I will spare you the how to details.

                               

                              If you take the four files that you sent into a Premiere Elements 12 project with the new Widescreen 48kHz.sqpreset, you will find:

                               

                              1. Edit Menu/Preferences/General will include a Pixel Aspect Ratio = 1.422.

                              2. If you disable "Default Scale to Frame Size" in preferences or right click the files on the Timeline and remove the check mark after Scale to Frame Size, each will fill the space in the Edit Area monitor.

                               

                              In this latest set of comments from you, are you working with the same files that you sent and with which I was working. If so, there is no scaling to be done to remove black borders.

                               

                              ATR

                              • 12. Re: The (new) Premiere pixel aspect ratio is wrong for my PAL DV cam footage
                                TomPelvis Level 1

                                I still doesn't quite work for me :-(

                                With just the one change of 702 to 720 in the Widescreen 48kHz.sqpreset file:
                                1. Edit Menu/Preferences/General includes a Pixel Aspect Ratio = 1.422.- Just as you say :-)

                                2. This does not work for me. I sure looks promising first. When I drag the TRV-950E scene down to the timeline there comes a red line on top that means I need to rendering. By looking at the monitor now the footage looks perfect!

                                But when it renders or export an avi, it either has a think black border on top/bottom or cropped on the side because it has apparently been scaled 1.45 when rendering... (dependent on Scale to Frame Size or not)

                                And the playback in the monitor suddenly shows a smaller picture (with huge black borders all around), but the small size is just in the editor. When I check the file I export it is like I described in the previous line :-(

                                 

                                ATR, it was you who indicated that I might edit a file. So I really needed you. And I still do, 'cause there is something wrong.

                                Did you render/export your file? Do you have the same problems that I described?

                                 

                                I bought my software on a DVD. Perhaps there are some issues related to bug fixes in general? I just now found the "updates" choice under help, and its about to download quite a few updates it seems.

                                 

                                Tom

                                 

                                 

                                 

                                Tom

                                • 13. Re: The (new) Premiere pixel aspect ratio is wrong for my PAL DV cam footage
                                  A.T. Romano Level 7

                                  Tom

                                   

                                  I will have another look at this. I just took it to Edit area monitor. I did not take it through export since I was not sure of your export intent - PAL DVD-VIDEO Widescreen on DVD disc or PAL DV AVI Widescreen file saved to computer hard drive.

                                   

                                  More later.

                                   

                                  Thanks for the follow ups.

                                   

                                  ATR

                                   

                                  Add On...I forgot to ask you, in Premiere Elements 12 are you setting the project preset manually or letting the program do that for you based on what it picks up as the properties of your source media?

                                  http://atr935.blogspot.com/2013/04/pe11-accuracy-of-automatic-project.html

                                  • 14. Re: The (new) Premiere pixel aspect ratio is wrong for my PAL DV cam footage
                                    TomPelvis Level 1

                                    Thanks, ATR

                                     

                                    It should be exported as a PAL DV AVI widescreen file.

                                     

                                    Unfortunately I still have the same problems (scaling by 1.46 and some strange monitor viewing behaviour) after downloading the updates for 12.1 :-(

                                     

                                    I set the project manually. It's set to DV PAL Widescreen (1.4222)

                                     

                                     

                                    Tom

                                    • 15. Re: The (new) Premiere pixel aspect ratio is wrong for my PAL DV cam footage
                                      A.T. Romano Level 7

                                      Tom

                                       

                                      I will keep working on this with the 4 files that you sent. Until our results are in sync, please let us work with the same files.

                                       

                                      I will keep working on this. More than likely all will be together by tomorrow. If I get finished sooner than I think, it will will post the results in the next few hours.

                                       

                                      ATR

                                      • 16. Re: The (new) Premiere pixel aspect ratio is wrong for my PAL DV cam footage
                                        A.T. Romano Level 7

                                        Tom

                                         

                                        After much thought and exploration and experimentation, I have come to the conclusion that there is no practical purpose for doing anything other than importing your media into the project and editing/exporting. I find no distortion in doing so, be it in the video samples that you posted or in still models that I created for the pixel aspect ratio 1.422 vs 1.4587 for D1/DV PAL Widescreen.

                                         

                                        If you have not already, please read the following about the Adobe DV Widescreen Pixel Aspect Ratio change from 1.422 to 1.456.

                                        Please start in the first link which gives some get subsequent links in it

                                         

                                        http://forums.adobe.com/thread/673877

                                        http://www.mikeafford.com/blog/2009/03/pal-d1-dv-widescreen-square-pixel-settings-in-after -effects-cs4-vs-cs3/

                                         

                                        Also, you may find the following article on square and non square pixels of interest. It uses the PAL DV Widescreen 1.422 pixel aspect ratio in its discussion.

                                        http://library.creativecow.net/articles/gerard_rick/pixel_madness.php

                                         

                                        Aside from the explanation for the rights and wrongs of the matter, this is what I actually observed taking your PAL DV AVI Widescreen  and PAL MPEG2.mpg Widescreen  into the same Premiere Elements 12 Windows PAL DV Widescreen project. Along with your video files were still images that I created in Photoshop Elements 11 Full Editor:

                                        1. 1024 x 576 document with a red circle on Layer 2 of the Layers Palette
                                        2. 1050 x 576 document with a red circle on Layer 1 of the Layers Palette.

                                        test circles.JPG

                                        The red circles were superimposed in creation. The difference in the pixel dimensions between the two are evidenced by Layer 1 content peaking through on the left and right.

                                        The gpsot readout for pixel aspect ratio for each of the videos was

                                         

                                        a. Your PAL DV AVI 720 x 576 Widescreen = 1.422

                                        b. Your PAL MPEG2.mpg 720 x 576 Widescreen = 1.422

                                         

                                        Each of the Photoshop Elements documents (circles) saved as .psd files 1050 x 576 pixels.

                                         

                                        When all were taken into Premiere Elements 12 project manually set for PAL DV Widescreen, they looked like the following, no display of distortion.......

                                         

                                        PAL DV AVI Widescreen 720 x 576 (now the pixel aspect ratio in Premiere Elements Properties was shown as 1.4587, not the 1.422 seen in gspot before import)

                                        avi.JPG

                                         

                                        PAL MPEG2.mpg Widescreen 720 x 576 (now the pixel aspect ratio in Premiere Elements 12 Properties was shown as 1.4587, not the 1.422 seen in gspot before import)

                                         

                                        MPG.JPG

                                        Edit Menu/Preferences/General with check mark next to "Default Scale to Frame Size" was in effect.

                                         

                                        As for the red circles stills (1050 x 576 to equate to the square pixel version of 720 x 576 widescreen) did not distort when brought into the Premiere Elements 12 Edit area monitor which is established by the PAL DV Widescreen project preset with the pixel aspect ratio = 1.4587.

                                         

                                        The jpg version of the Photoshop Elements document (.psd) 1050 x 576 pixels (square pixels) looked like:

                                         

                                        1050.jpg

                                         

                                        And, when this Timeline was exported Publish+Share/Computer/AVI with the DV PAL Widescreen preset, there was no distortion in the export. It looked undistorted as it did before export.

                                         

                                        So, unless I am overlooking a key point here, I cannot see a reason why you cannot use the video sources that you presented for sampling as weil as stills with the 1050 x 576 pixel dimensions.

                                         

                                        The only time I see any distortion possibilities is if you use a player that does not recognize the 16:9 flag that stretches the 720 x 576 to 1050 x 576 for display after encoding.

                                         

                                        Trying to convert Premiere Elements 12 which uses the 1.4587 pixel aspect ratio for PAL DV Widescreen into a Premiere Elements 7 which uses the 1.422 pixel aspect ratio for PAL DV Widescreen is up hill in spite of creative thinking on your side.

                                         

                                        Please review and let me know if you are seeing another different from what I am reporting with the samples that you posted.

                                         

                                        Thank you.

                                         

                                        ATR

                                        • 17. Re: The (new) Premiere pixel aspect ratio is wrong for my PAL DV cam footage
                                          TomPelvis Level 1

                                          Thanks for all the help!

                                           

                                          There is a lot SD footage out there where the 4:3 or 16:9 picture has been recorded on the complete storage resolution 720x576. And there is also footage where only the 702x576 part of the stored resolution holds the 4:3 or 16:9 picture (preferrably video transferred from analogue video). The latter is the basis for the new PAR=1.458.

                                           

                                          So what you need to know is what PAR is correct for your specific source footage.

                                           

                                          It only really matters if you (like me) decide to mix DV footage with square pixel material. In my case I want to make an SD movie with added stills and HD footage. I'm the kind of guy who wants all content of my movie to have 100% matching aspect ratio.

                                           

                                          The best solution would be if Premiere used PAR 1.422 for such a project. Then I could add pictures and HD footage. It all would match the SD aspect ratio, and when I export a final movie, it will be one that has PAR=1.422.

                                           

                                          Setting the old PAR 1.422 seems only possible in Premiere Pro. There are other programs, like Windows Movie Maker that use the old PAR which would work perfectly for me. So I might buy other editing software.

                                           

                                          If I decide to keep using Premiere Elements 12 with PAR=1.458 and still want to get it 100% correct, I must do one of the following:

                                          1) Stretch the DV footage by factor 0.975 (getting thin black margins on each side) so the 16:9 picture will be stored only on the 702x576 part of 720x576.

                                          2) Stretch stills and HD footage by factor 1.025 (1050/1024) to match my DV footage (that is stretched by 1.025 because of the too high PAR value).

                                           

                                          It is unfortunate that people don't know what the correct PAR for their DV footage is. Seems like a lot of people simply bought the idea that the 16:9 or 4:3 area always is stored on 702x576 pixels and the the new PAR values would be correct for all footage! (Which at least is wrong for my Sony TRV-950E DV-cam)

                                           

                                          In my opionion a quality video editing program should support old and new PARs and let you choose - since there is so much DV footage recorded with old PAR=1.422 (16:9) or old PAR=1.067 (4:3).

                                          I read somewhere that the BBC were pushing for standardizing the new PAR=1.458 (16:9) and new PAR=1.09 (4:3). That makes sence, since they must have thousand of hours of analogue PAL video transferred to D1/DV PAL which all should be stretched according to the new PARs :-)

                                           

                                           

                                          Thanks,

                                          Tom

                                          • 18. Re: The (new) Premiere pixel aspect ratio is wrong for my PAL DV cam footage
                                            nealeh Level 5

                                            TomPelvis wrote:

                                             

                                            the BBC were pushing for standardizing the new PAR

                                             

                                            The BBC has jumped on the band wagon of broadcasting much of their 4:3 material cropped to 16:9. I hate it. I imagine the original Director, if still alive, must weep at the way his/her carefully crafted shot has been vandalised.

                                             

                                            Cheers,
                                            --
                                            Neale
                                            Insanity is hereditary, you get it from your children

                                             

                                            If this post or another user's post resolves the original issue, please mark the posts as correct and/or helpful accordingly. This helps other users with similar trouble get answers to their questions quicker. Thanks.

                                            • 19. Re: The (new) Premiere pixel aspect ratio is wrong for my PAL DV cam footage
                                              TomPelvis Level 1

                                              I agree with you Neale. All films/videos should be presented in their original aspect ratio!

                                              But that is another discussion than the technical issues regarding old/new PAR values ;-)

                                               

                                              Tom

                                              • 20. Re: The (new) Premiere pixel aspect ratio is wrong for my PAL DV cam footage
                                                A.T. Romano Level 7

                                                Tom

                                                 

                                                Thanks for your reply.

                                                 

                                                Although my post 16 includes my concluding comments in your thread, I will unofficially not close the book on searching for answers to the rights and wrongs for the pixel aspect ratios old versus new.

                                                 

                                                I will contact you with further information if I find alternative solutions than what I have mentioned.

                                                 

                                                ATR