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1. Re: Preview file quality / online workflow
JSS1138 Mar 11, 2014 8:53 PM (in response to Chrismc)Most preview formats will degrade the footage to some degree, which is why it's often recommended that preview files are not used for export.
To prevent this, you don't need a format that matches your footage, you need one that's lossless. UT is a good choice for this purpose.
http://www.videohelp.com/tools/Ut-Video-Codec-Suite
ProRes and DNxHD are not technically lossless, but at high settings, they're close enough to be used as well.
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2. Re: Preview file quality / online workflow
Chrismc Mar 12, 2014 5:32 AM (in response to JSS1138)Thanks Jim, that's very helpful.
I'm on mac though and I think UT is a PC codec?
Anyway I guess the crux of my point is I want a workflow where I am looking at an accurate representation of the source footage. On FCP7 Pro Res has been the best way of doing this maintaining the balance between quality and performance.
Ideally what I would like is for Premier to match its sequence and preview settings to the footage. So that when I start editing, no rendering is required ( The same as if I was working with ProRes Footage in a ProRes sequence in FCP). And what I am looking at are the Raw rushes. As shot.
Is that possible?
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3. Re: Preview file quality / online workflow
JSS1138 Mar 12, 2014 7:17 AM (in response to Chrismc)UT is cross platform. It appears as a codec option under AVI for Windows, and under QuickTime for Macs.
Premiere Pro is not FCP, so it may be best to forget how FCP used to work and the work flows it required, and try and get accustomed to the way PP works. Many people find it a superior work flow.
For starters, PP takes most any camera format right off the camera, no Log and Transfer, no trancoding requried. In fact, transcoding usually provides no benefit and only wastes time and hard drive space. PP is a fully online editor from start to finish, and that is most often the recommended work flow. The primary exception is when your machine just can't handle the native media, but the better solution even then is to upgrade your machine.
Next, the preview format chosen will have no impact on whether or not a render is required while editing. That will depend on your media, effects used, and the abilities of your machine. All the preview format affects is what format those previews will be when you do decide to render. And in that case, my answer from post 1 applies.
Make sense?
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4. Re: Preview file quality / online workflow
Chrismc Mar 12, 2014 8:05 AM (in response to JSS1138)Hi Jim,
Thanks again for the Info, yes it does make sense.
I completely understand that PP elimates the need for transcoding, which is of course amazing! And that it uses Native camera formats.
But of course as soon as those files are dropped into a sequence, they are modified, based on that sequences settings. I want to make sure that my sequence settings EXACTLY match the native media. I don't want to set the sequences up manually, as that introduces room for error. I want premiere to say " hey, that native file is 1920x1080, progressive 422 etc etc etc" and set up a sequence AND preview files based on EXACTLY that.
So I guess thats what I'm asking is possible?
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5. Re: Preview file quality / online workflow
SAFEHARBOR11 Mar 12, 2014 8:27 AM (in response to Chrismc)When starting a new project, first import your footage. Best to use "Media Browser" in Premiere rather than "File > Import". Once you have your media in the Project Bin, simply drag a clip onto the "New Item" icon at lower right of Project Bin. This icon is just left of the trash can. This will create a New Sequence to best match the source footage. The description name might not exactly match your footage, but that's ok. For instance, you might drop some ProRes clips in there and the Sequence will come up as "ARRI" - what matters is that the frame size, frame rate, and fields are correct to match the source. Verify under Sequence > Sequence Settings. The Sequence does NOT need to match the "codec" of the source footage. Who cares? The codec will be determined in the Export Settings in Adobe Media Encoder when creating the deliverable media. Doesn't matter during the edit.
Unlike FCP, Premiere does not need to "render a preview" to check an effect or title. It should always "play" the footage right from the timeline. You might get a red bar above the clip, which suggests that a render will be needed at some point, however in most cases the clip will still play back smoothly enough to do your edits and make judgements on the results. I almost never render (hit ENTER key to render red areas to green) unless the effect is so heavy that the clip just won't play/scrub smooth enough to preview. I will usually leave the red areas alone, as they get rendered during final export.
I'm a PC user, so not sure what "Preview File Format" options you might see in Sequence Settings requester. Mine is typically "MPEG I-Frame". When exporting in AME, there is a checkbox at the bottom for "Use Render Previews". Generally recommended to NOT use that, let AME render to export codec DIRECT from the timeline sources for best quality.
Thanks
Jeff Pulera
Safe Harbor Computers
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6. Re: Preview file quality / online workflow
Chrismc Mar 12, 2014 8:35 AM (in response to SAFEHARBOR11)Thanks Jeff, that is very helpful info.
The only thing I would say is that for me it is very important that the sequence Codec DOES MATCH the codec of the source footage. And that it really does matter during the edit. The reason being is that during the edit I need to know that what I am looking at is EXACTLY what the end export will look like. It is no good doing a grade on a MPEG1 preview file, then at the end exporting a Pro Res file for delivery as the two will look completely different. You see my point?
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7. Re: Preview file quality / online workflow
cc_merchant Mar 12, 2014 8:49 AM (in response to Chrismc)The reason being is that during the edit I need to know that what I am looking at is EXACTLY what the end export will look like.
That is like vigorously rubbing apples to give it a nice shining look (during the edit) and then compressing them to get apple juice (during the export) and being surprised that the end export is not EXACTLY the same.
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8. Re: Preview file quality / online workflow
SAFEHARBOR11 Mar 12, 2014 8:55 AM (in response to cc_merchant)Well, if you shot HDV which is Long-GOP MPEG-2 at 25Mbps, is that EXACTLY the format you're going to deliver? That would not be a robust codec for preview OR delivery. If you are editing RED footage, is that what you're going to deliver? Most likely not. I didn't say the preview was "MPEG-1". It is actually MPEG-2 I-Frame, which at high bitrates looks excellent. But the real point is, unless you actually render part of the timeline to green, you're never going to SEE that preview codec anyway. Premiere will "serve up frames" on the fly normally. Add an effect and play/scrub the timeline, and Premiere just puts things together as you go. It is NOT first rendering to the preview codec. So I think you're making more out of this than there is.
Thanks
Jeff
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9. Re: Preview file quality / online workflow
Chrismc Mar 12, 2014 10:09 AM (in response to cc_merchant)Thanks both.
CC Merchant. Er no, that is exactly the opposite of what it is. I am talking about working with the same preview codec during editing, as the final will be exported as. So that it looks the same. I wouldn't be compressing anything at the end. Thats the point. I would be exporting a sequence with the exact same settings. My nice shiny apples would still be nice Shiny apples.
Thanks for the advice though
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10. Re: Preview file quality / online workflow
cc_merchant Mar 12, 2014 10:18 AM (in response to Chrismc)Unless you edit GOP formats. You may use the same codec, resolution, framerate, etc, but if you even trim a single frame from one of the clips, the time-line gets re-encoded all the way.
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11. Re: Preview file quality / online workflow
SAFEHARBOR11 Mar 12, 2014 10:18 AM (in response to Chrismc)But you ARE compressing at the end. I believe with FCP, you could edit QuickTime source clips, and render QT preview files, and then in the end FCP would actually stitch together the various .mov source clips/preview renders into a NEW QuickTime file without re-compressing.
Premiere doesn't work that way usually (I think some limited "smart render" support was recently added for certain formats). When you Export using Media Encoder, it IS going to re-compress the timeline video to whatever format you specify, even if the export codec is the "same" as the source. So if you edit ProRes 422 source clips, and then export to ProRes 422, it is still going to recompress (transcode) the video regardless. And again, without rendering the timeline to "green bar" status, you've never "seen" the "preview" codec anyway, Premiere is taking the original clips, adding whatever effect or filter, and putting that result out to the monitor "on the fly" when playing the timeline with red or yellow (or no) bars.
Thanks
Jeff Pulera
Safe Harbor
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12. Re: Preview file quality / online workflow
Chrismc Mar 12, 2014 10:36 AM (in response to SAFEHARBOR11)Yeah Jeff, you are right that is exactly how FCP7 worked. And it is perfect because the end file you create and send off for broadcast looks exactly as you intended.
Yeah with premiere, it will be recompressing everything. But it will be recompressing it to the SAME codec. So the output file will look the same as it did within Premiere. And thats what I want.
The way you are describing it how can Premiere possibly be used as a professional tool, if you output to a different codec which will probably result in colour shifts?
Surely it should be good working practice to render it all to green with a preview format the editor has determined as suitable, or that matches the output format. Otherwise, if you allow Premiere to do it on the fly, you are simply guessing at what your end delivery will actually look like!
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13. Re: Preview file quality / online workflow
shooternz Mar 12, 2014 1:47 PM (in response to Chrismc)It is no good doing a grade on a MPEG1 preview file, then at the end exporting a Pro Res file for delivery as the two will look completely different. You see my point?
Do some tests and see if you actually have an issue or if you are overthinking this.
I shoot and edit for broadcast TV ( tvcs) and I have never had an issue.
I edit native files.
BT - what is the difference in FCP... you are working with preview transcodes there as well...I believe.
You said you work an Offline >Online workflow. How so if you are conforming and finishing in FCP? Do you go back to source files somehow for the CC/Grade?
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14. Re: Preview file quality / online workflow
Chrismc Mar 13, 2014 2:12 AM (in response to shooternz)Thanks shooternz. I think your right and I am overthinking this! I'm just switching
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15. Re: Preview file quality / online workflow
Chrismc Mar 13, 2014 2:15 AM (in response to Chrismc).... over from fcp so making sure I'm not making some fundamental mistake!
But thanks all for your advice I think I've got my head round it now.
One other unrelated question, is there any way of finding info on the field order and data rate of rushes within premiere. I don't think it displays it in the project columns or if you "get info", unless I'm missing it?
Thanks again for the advice
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16. Re: Preview file quality / online workflow
JSS1138 Mar 13, 2014 7:51 PM (in response to Chrismc)Surely it should be good working practice to render it all to green with a preview format.
Not normally, no. One usualy does the correction on the original media, not rendered previews. You're the first I've ever seen worry about a possible color shift due to export codec, and we have a few regulars who routinely do broadcast work.
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17. Re: Preview file quality / online workflow
JSS1138 Mar 13, 2014 7:52 PM (in response to Chrismc)is there any way of finding info on the field order and data rate of rushes within premiere.
Not yet.
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18. Re: Preview file quality / online workflow
Chrismc Mar 14, 2014 2:18 AM (in response to JSS1138)HI jim,
Yeah I get that you grade the source footage, but once you do that would probably need rendering and become a preview at whatever codec you have set, changing it.
Anyway, I get Im thinking about this the wrong way now.
As I say I'm coming from FCP where this sort of thing is quite important, as for instance if I had Pro Res (HQ) footage and put it into a ProRes(LT) sequence, the footage would be rendered to LT. And probably need to be rendered in order for it to play. Once it has been rendered to the lower quality, even if I was to export at ProRes(HQ from that sequence I would of lost that quality from the footage.
I was thinking Premiere was working in the same way, but now I understand that it doesnt, its cleared it up!
Thanks for all the info and the extra stuff on the metadata
Cheers




