29 Replies Latest reply on Feb 6, 2015 1:52 AM by Willi Adelberger

    How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?

    Cyndee M Level 1
      I'm using ID CC ME. Much of my work contains a Hebrew word or pharase within an English sentence. Using the standard method to switch to Hebrew in Windows 7 usually give me the Adobe Hebrew font (and I think sometimes Myriad Hebrew). Is there any way to predefine which Hebrew font will be used when making the switch when I want a different font used? I know I can (and do) set a character style for it, but then I must first switch to Hebrew, then type the word or phrase, then use the character style to change the font (it doesn't usually work if you set the character style before switching to Hebrew), then change the character style back for the rest of the text.

      What is the simplest way to get the Hebrew in the font I want?
        • 1. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
          Cyndee M Level 1

          Aren't there any thoughts on this subject? I'd really appreciate any guidance available. TIA.

          • 2. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
            Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

            I am not used to work with ME versions. But as far as I remeber there are some settings for the reading and writing direction on document level, on story level, on paragraph level and on word level. I would look into Character style to proof if there is some setting for RTL, so you could set up a character style with Hebrew Font and RTL setting.

             

            I wished I could read and understand Hebrew. But I can't, so when I set up Christian Books with some Hebrew Words I used a plugin which extended ID for ME possibilities and copied and pasted it from the Hebrew Computer Bible to the text and gave it to the Author back for proofreading, and he accepted this workflow without any changes.

             

            It is also important to use a font which includes Hebrew Glyphs at the correct place, some fonts have it only in replacement to Latin letters, others, OTF, use the Hebrew letters in the correct range of the font.

            • 3. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
              Salah Fadlabi Level 5

              Try to with no document open to select the font you want in characther panel or control panel.

              • 4. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                I've never set Hebrew, but I thinkk you guys are missing the point of Cyndee's question, which, as I read it, is how do you create a paragraph style that has the correct font for English words, AND also uses the correct fornt for Hebrew words without further intervention. I can think of a few possibilitities, but some are complex and I have no way to test.

                 

                First would be to use either a font with both the western and Hebrew characters already included, if such a font is available and meets your style needs. Next would be to build a "composite font" from the two fonts you want to use, and spec that in the style.

                 

                More complex would be to create a character style and apply it as a GREP style to Hebrew words using the unicode range for Hebrew glyphs.

                 

                How are the words entered now so that ID would know that they are, in fact, Hebrew?

                • 5. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
                  TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  Just saw this thread.

                  Peter mentions "composite fonts" -- and it's certainly an idea, but I think it's more trouble than it's worth.

                   

                  The simple, straightforward answer is that you have to create a character style for the Hebrew, as you're doing. You can assign a shortcut to it. Then, if you need to type in some Hebrew text, simply hit the shortcut key for your Hebrew char style, switch the OS keyboard (Alt+Shift on Windows) and start typing in Hebrew. To stop typing in Hebrew, the simplest way is to change your keyboard to English again (Alt+Shift again) use Quick Apply (Alt+Enter), type [no (which should be enough to get the [none] character style to appear, and hit Enter, and you're back to English.

                   

                  Your assertion that "(it doesn't usually work if you set the character style before switching to Hebrew)" is not correct.

                   

                  It's pretty quick to do really.

                   

                  If you're looking to apply the Hebrew char style to all Hebrew throughout the document, you will probably have 99% success if you simply do a search for all text formatted with "Hebrew" as the language. MS Word mercifully seems to have some default setting that applies the correct language when the user starts typing in Hebrew in Word, so unless they've intentionally sabotaged that, it's pretty reliable.

                   

                  Ariel

                  • 6. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
                    Cyndee M Level 1

                    Willi Adelberger wrote:

                     

                    I am not used to work with ME versions. But as far as I remeber there are some settings for the reading and writing direction on document level, on story level, on paragraph level and on word level. I would look into Character style to proof if there is some setting for RTL, so you could set up a character style with Hebrew Font and RTL setting.

                     

                    I wished I could read and understand Hebrew. But I can't, so when I set up Christian Books with some Hebrew Words I used a plugin which extended ID for ME possibilities and copied and pasted it from the Hebrew Computer Bible to the text and gave it to the Author back for proofreading, and he accepted this workflow without any changes.

                     

                    It is also important to use a font which includes Hebrew Glyphs at the correct place, some fonts have it only in replacement to Latin letters, others, OTF, use the Hebrew letters in the correct range of the font.

                    There are no such settings that I am aware of -- that is what I am looking for.

                    • 7. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
                      Cyndee M Level 1

                      Salah Fadlabi wrote:

                       

                      Try to with no document open to select the font you want in characther panel or control panel.

                      That will give you a default "paragraph" font, but when you switch to Hebrew, you still get the system default font.

                      • 8. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
                        Cyndee M Level 1

                        Peter Spier wrote:

                         

                        I've never set Hebrew, but I thinkk you guys are missing the point of Cyndee's question, which, as I read it, is how do you create a paragraph style that has the correct font for English words, AND also uses the correct fornt for Hebrew words without further intervention. I can think of a few possibilitities, but some are complex and I have no way to test.

                         

                        First would be to use either a font with both the western and Hebrew characters already included, if such a font is available and meets your style needs. Next would be to build a "composite font" from the two fonts you want to use, and spec that in the style.

                         

                        More complex would be to create a character style and apply it as a GREP style to Hebrew words using the unicode range for Hebrew glyphs.

                         

                        How are the words entered now so that ID would know that they are, in fact, Hebrew?

                        Yes, Peter, you do understand what I am looking for. Their are some composite fonts (built into Windows) but very limited and don't work for my needs. Building a composite font could work in theory, but I don't always even need the same Hebrew font with the same English font; it can vary.

                         

                        The GREP thought is interesting, but GREP is beyond me.

                         

                        I am using Windows and ID understands Hebrew through Windows. In Windows, with Hebrew support installed, you use left-Alt+Shift to switch between English & Hebrew. You will be using whatever English font you've been using (usually specified by paragraph style) and then ID uses the Hebrew font it thinks should correspond -- almost always Adobe Hebrew (which is a pretty good font and can often be used) and sometimes Myriad Hebrew. In older version of ID, it used the Hebrew characters of Times New Roman (part of Windows).

                         

                        What I want is something to know which Hebrew font (I have hundreds of them) should be used once I invoke the left-Alt+Shift combo. There is a Hebrew wordprocessor called DavkaWriter which does this. You set a default font for each Hebrew & English.

                        • 9. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
                          Cyndee M Level 1

                          [Ariel] wrote:

                           

                          Just saw this thread.

                          Peter mentions "composite fonts" -- and it's certainly an idea, but I think it's more trouble than it's worth.

                           

                          The simple, straightforward answer is that you have to create a character style for the Hebrew, as you're doing. You can assign a shortcut to it. Then, if you need to type in some Hebrew text, simply hit the shortcut key for your Hebrew char style, switch the OS keyboard (Alt+Shift on Windows) and start typing in Hebrew. To stop typing in Hebrew, the simplest way is to change your keyboard to English again (Alt+Shift again) use Quick Apply (Alt+Enter), type [no (which should be enough to get the [none] character style to appear, and hit Enter, and you're back to English.

                           

                          Your assertion that "(it doesn't usually work if you set the character style before switching to Hebrew)" is not correct.

                           

                          It's pretty quick to do really.

                           

                          If you're looking to apply the Hebrew char style to all Hebrew throughout the document, you will probably have 99% success if you simply do a search for all text formatted with "Hebrew" as the language. MS Word mercifully seems to have some default setting that applies the correct language when the user starts typing in Hebrew in Word, so unless they've intentionally sabotaged that, it's pretty reliable.

                           

                          Ariel

                          I find that just too many keystrokes are needed for the combo of switching to Hebrew, applying the character style and then switching back to the English font. Yes, it's doable, but it's faster if I just type it, leave the default font and then go back and apply the correct Hebrew fonts using the Eyedropper tool.

                           

                          When I said it didn't work to apply the character style first wasn't really what I meant. I find that if I do that, it technically does work, but the character style is always applied with an overide (plus sign after name) and I always need to go back to clear the override.

                           

                          The search & replace idea is interesting except that I am normally typing the text directly into ID and it doesn't automatically assign Hebrew as the language when you change it.

                           

                          It looks like what I want can't be done at this point in time; hopefully in the future.

                          • 10. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
                            RuthK Level 1

                            Just seen this while looking for help with a similar GREP query.

                             

                            This method usually works well although occasionally it seems to be overriden with a default hebrew font. Sometimes you have to alt-click the paragraph style and clear the overrides after.

                             

                            Set your character style for Hebrew words.

                            In your paragraph style containing the Hebrew words, use GREP to find hebrew characters and apply the character style.

                            The GREP code for this is [\x{0590}-\x{05FF}]


                            You have to make sure your paragraph style is set to a "World Ready Paragraph Composer" otherwise the Hebrew will come in backwards.


                            Unfortunately this grep code does not find any punctuation marks within the hebrew, eg brackets, apostrophes etc, and that can cause some problems and you have to apply it manually. I am just about to see if any GREP wizards can tell me the GREP string for finding punctuation that falls between two hebrew letters.


                            Hope this is helpful.

                             

                            Screenshot 2015-01-15 17.50.52.png

                            • 11. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
                              Cyndee M Level 1

                              Thank you so much. I found it hard to believe that I was the only one struggling with this. I will certainly give this a try. I am traveling for the next week and a half so I don't know if I'll get to try it out until I get back, but I'll certainly reply here once I do so.

                               

                              Thanks again.

                              • 12. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
                                Cyndee M Level 1

                                I just had time to try this out and have not gotten it to work. I tried it on 2 existing files which already had paragraph styles and a Hebrew character style. In the paragraph styles I pasted your GREP query into the proper place and specified the name of the Hebrew character style to use. However, in each case, when I switched from English to Hebrew and typed something in Hebrew, the Hebrew was in Adobe Hebrew (which is NOT the font specified in the designated Hebrew character style). And, clicking in the Hebrew text shows that no character style is applied to it.

                                 

                                I tried clearing overrides in the paragraph style after, but that just changed the Hebrew font to the English font (leaving pink boxes since the English font doesn't have the Hebrew characters).

                                 

                                Have I missed a step possibly?

                                 

                                I really hope I can get this to work as it would be a tremendous help to my workflow.

                                • 13. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
                                  Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                  You have to use a character style which includes here the font and the direction. The paragraph style has to use a global composer in justification.

                                  Clearing overrides will not remove properties from the character styles, only manual formatting.

                                  • 14. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
                                    Cyndee M Level 1

                                    My Hebrew character style does include a Hebrew font and right-to-left direction. Paragraph style uses Adobe World-Ready Paragraph Composer. But, the above GREP query does not change the Hebrew to the font of the style; it still goes to the default of Adobe Hebrew.

                                    • 15. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
                                      Cyndee M Level 1

                                      And, in addition to the above, the Hebrew character style is not applied to the Hebrew text (clicking in it shows no character style applied).

                                      • 16. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
                                        Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                        When you use GREP, do you use it as GREP style in the paragraph style? You would not see this style when you select the text. Or as find and replace?

                                        How would your GREP detect Hebrew?

                                        What happens when you apply the style without GREP?

                                        What kind of font are you using? OTF? Strongly recommended!

                                        • 17. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
                                          UweLaubender Level 1

                                          @Cyndee – What is the base font of your paragraph style?
                                          Is it a OTF (Open Type Font)

                                           

                                          What is the exact version of your InDesign?
                                          CC v9.3.1 ?

                                          CC v9.2.2 ?

                                           

                                          You could tell, if you are going to: "About InDesign".

                                           

                                          Uwe

                                          • 18. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
                                            RuthK Level 1

                                            Yes, I sometimes also have this problem and I'm unable to pinpoint what is causing it (it used to work perfectly all the time)

                                             

                                            1) As Willi said, are you using a GREP in the paragraph style, or are you doing find and replace? You should be using it as part of the definition of the paragraph style.

                                             

                                            2) When a GREP style is applied as part of a paragraph style, you will not see the character style when you click the word. But at the bottom of the docker you should see a little paragraph mark followed by the name of the style, indicating that the character style has been set by the paragraph style GREP (I think)

                                            hebrewgrep.jpg

                                            3) I'm puzzled by the fact that you are seeing pink boxes when you "clear overrides" - you should still be seeing hebrew lettering, even if you have the wrong font - so need to pinpoint what is happening here. Are you using a full "hebrew" font? What happens when you apply the character style manually.

                                             

                                            4) This is a hack and is no good for when you have applied other formatting, but as a workaround you can apply the "hebrew" character style to your whole paragraph, and then take it off by pressing "none" - this seems to "fix" the Adobe Hebrew override.

                                             

                                            Need to do some work on this

                                            • 19. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
                                              Cyndee M Level 1

                                              Willi --

                                               

                                              I am using the GREP style in the paragraph style not as find & replace.

                                               

                                              I can apply the character style manually without GREP, but what happens is if you are typing English and then switch to Hebrew, the Hebrew always defaults to Adobe Hebrew and I need a different font. This GREP query is supposed to apply the font specificed in my designated character style.

                                               

                                              Both English & Hebrew fonts are TT and are specified by the customer and cannot be changed.

                                               

                                              Uwe --

                                              I am using IN CC 2014 -- exact version is 10.1.0.70 x64 Build

                                               

                                              RuthK --

                                               

                                              As I said above I am indeed using GREP in the paragraph style exactly as in your example. As I said, and you confirmed correct, I do not see the character style when clicking on the word, but it does show in the bottom left corner of the palette as you've indicated. This time when I tried clear overrides, the Hebrew text did indeed change to what it should have been (as specified in the character style); but what I'm trying to avoid is having to clear overrides, etc. There is no other formatting in my text other than what is applied by the paragraph style. I really appreciate all of your work on this, and I hope you can get it working right -- I'm willing to be a guinea pig and keep testing.

                                              • 20. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
                                                Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                @Cyndee – can you tell, if you are typesetting in your Hebrew TT font, if the characters are in the Unicode range of:

                                                 

                                                \x{0590}-\x{05FF}

                                                or:

                                                \x{FB1D}-\x{FB40}


                                                How could you check? Select a character in a text frame with that font and check InDesign's Info Panel.

                                                Here an example with a font, that cannot show the right glyph, but is showing the right Unicode value:


                                                UniCodeOfSelectedCharacter-WRONG-FONT.png


                                                And here the same value in the Info Panel for the same selected character in a font that is able to show the right glyph:


                                                UniCodeOfSelectedCharacter.png

                                                What Unicode value does your TT font is showing, if you are typing the right glyph? In my example it is: ל

                                                Does it show: Unicode 0x5DC ? If yes, we can (nearly) rule out, that your encoding is different from OTF.


                                                Note: There are different notations for the same Unicode value. Here just a few:

                                                 

                                                0x5DC

                                                U+05DC

                                                \x{05DC}

                                                 

                                                If we are choosing the GREP notation, we can see, that \x{05DC} indeed is in the range of characters for Hebrew: \x{0590} - \x{05FF}, \x{FB1D} - \x{FB40}

                                                 

                                                Uwe


                                                • 21. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
                                                  Cyndee M Level 1

                                                  The ל in the TT Hebrew font I'm using shows the same 0x5DC as yours does.

                                                  • 22. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
                                                    RuthK Level 1

                                                    It's maddening, I can't work out why this happens either. If it helps anyone out there to narrow down the problem, Hebrew text comes correctly if I paste it from word (rather than type it directly in inDesign)

                                                    This is usually my workflow for lots of text so I don't normally have problems.


                                                    • 23. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
                                                      Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                                      Do you work with an OTF font? You should do it.

                                                      • 24. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
                                                        RuthK Level 1

                                                        Yes - I do work an OTF font.

                                                        • 25. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
                                                          Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                                          Do you do it correct:

                                                          1. Copy Hebrew text from Word
                                                          2. Change to INDesign
                                                          3. Put curser into the text
                                                          4. Apple Hebrew Character Style
                                                          5. Paste

                                                          ?

                                                          • 26. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
                                                            RuthK Level 1

                                                            Hi Willi - it comes in fine from word - we are discussing automatic application of grep style to apply hebrew within a paragraph style, rather than manual application.

                                                            • 28. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
                                                              RuthK Level 1

                                                              No, I'm using my GREP which seems to work for OTF, only I have to sometimes apply it manually. I think (?) Uwe's GREP is not for OTF but for another format.

                                                              • 29. Re: How to set default Hebrew font for words within English?
                                                                Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                                                No, it's for OTF, not for other fonts.