20 Replies Latest reply on Apr 2, 2014 9:10 AM by Fred12345999

    Paragraph Numbering Legal Style

    Fred12345999 Level 1

      There is a growing need for special type of paragraph numbering for legal documents (especially legal opinions).

       

      Such numbering is:

       

      1. Independent of list numbering.

      2. Assigned to specific styles

      3. The most desirable number display position is centered with the paragraph (as it appears on it first page), to the left of the margin.

       

      In other words, paragraphs in a numbered list might have BOTH a paragraph number and a list number

       

      P129       3. Some list text.

       

      Would be possible in InDesign? (Including programming)

        • 1. Re: Paragraph Numbering Legal Style
          Migintosh Level 4

          Is this for the actual page number, or a reference to a page number in (for example) an index or table of contents?

          • 2. Re: Paragraph Numbering Legal Style
            Fred12345999 Level 1

            This is for the paragraph number for citation purposes.

            • 3. Re: Paragraph Numbering Legal Style
              Migintosh Level 4

              Sorry, for some reason I misread that to imply page numbers. I don't do enough work with number lists to have had to come up with something like this before, so I'm not sure I can help. With luck, someone with more experience with this may be able to help. Good luck.

              • 4. Re: Paragraph Numbering Legal Style
                Javed_ali Adobe Employee

                Can you show a small example snapshot here?

                • 5. Re: Paragraph Numbering Legal Style
                  TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  If you want to number each appearance of a certain paragraph style consecutively throughout the document, it can be done using a combination of anchored objects, numbered paragraph style, and GREP.

                   

                  (1) Create a text frame in the margin. Add a single paragraph mark to it as text. Set that paragraph to be a numbered paragraph. Probably a good idea to create a paragraph style from this.

                  (2) Turn this text frame into an anchored object with custom positioning. Position it just where you want using the anchored object positioning controls.

                  (3) Create an object style that is based on this text frame.

                  (4) Cut the text frame so it should now be in the clipboard but not on the page.

                  (5) Open a GREP search. In the find what options, select the paragraph stye you want to number. In the find what text, type (without quotes): "^." In the Change To field, type "~c$0".

                  (6) Save a backup copy of your document!

                  (7) Click Change All.

                   

                  This will paste a copy of the anchored object at the beginning of each paragraph styled with the paragraph style you have selected. Because inside the anchored object is an auto-numbered paragraph, the numbering will increment consecutively throughout the document.

                   

                  I think that's the only way to do it in InDesign.

                   

                  But I wouldn't recommend it! So many anchored objects can cause InDesign to grind to a halt when working with a long document. I recently was asked by a publishing company to create a custom numbering solution to replace their old system, which was based on anchored objects, and, because it was a long document, was making it impossible for them to work.

                   

                  So, to avoid loads of anchored objects, first of all try downloading a demo of my Line Numbering Script (http://www.freelancebookdesign.com/scripts/display-line-numbers-in-indesign). I don't think this does exactly what you want, because it doesn't count paragraphs, it counts lines. However, if, apart from that, it seems to do everything you need, contact me and I will modify it to count paragraphs rather than lines.

                   

                  Ariel

                  • 6. Re: Paragraph Numbering Legal Style
                    Fred12345999 Level 1

                    Here is an example that illustrates the problem. It looks like it was done with Word:

                     

                     

                    http://www.state.il.us/court/Opinions/AppellateCourt/2014/1stDistrict/1113624.pdf

                     

                    You can see the document looks like @$@$. That is the problem I want to solve.

                     

                    For publication, you want the paragraph numbers off to the side and away from the text for readability.

                     

                    I also point out that a paragraph could have both a line number and a paragraph number (not shown here).

                    • 7. Re: Paragraph Numbering Legal Style
                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                      Looks like an ordinary numbered list with a pilcrow gylph added as part of the numbering before the first digit to me. You can set up the paragraph style with nicer indents and/or spacing. The internal cites have nothing to do with the list itself and would either be cross-refs or typed in.

                      • 8. Re: Paragraph Numbering Legal Style
                        Fred12345999 Level 1

                        It is there as a work around. It cannot be an ordinary numbered list for the final solution because:

                         

                        1. The number needs to be centered on the paragraph text and offset, not at the start of the text.

                         

                        2. List could have BoTH a list number and a paragraph number. If two numbered lists occur in the document with three elements (1, 2, 3), those list elements could have a paragraph number as well.

                         

                         

                        P1        1. Item

                        P2        2. Item

                        P3        3. Item

                         

                        P4       Text resumes on a paragraph

                         

                        P5       4. Item

                        p6       5. Item

                        P7       6. Item

                        • 9. Re: Paragraph Numbering Legal Style
                          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                          Show us a mockup of what you want (include ALL the cases), not what you already have, using palceholder text or whatever, and maybe we'll have a better chance of giving you a good answer.

                           

                          If you mean centered on the text vertically, in the margin or column, is that a client/legal requirement? It definitely makes the numbering harder to read since the start of the paragraph and the number may wind up on different pages.

                          • 11. Re: Paragraph Numbering Legal Style
                            Obi-wan Kenobi Adobe Community Professional

                            Hi,

                             

                            If I understand well, you want simply number each para and, for each para, number each line! Right!

                            • 12. Re: Paragraph Numbering Legal Style
                              Fred12345999 Level 1

                              Example 2.png

                              The previous post was a quick and dirty to honor the request for getting the different use cases in. This is a demo I created showing the numbering neater. It does not show all the possibilities that could occur (e.g. numbered lists in the text having separate paragraph number, headings ignored for paragraph numbering).

                              • 13. Re: Paragraph Numbering Legal Style
                                John Mensinger Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                I am familiar with the legal format you need, and I'm reasonably certain InDesign doesn't have any native features that will auto-number everything and deliver the layout too; at least not without a lot of trickery. If I had to do it, I'd just use a two-column table and set (manually-entered) paragraph numbers, center-aligned (vertically) in a narrow left column, and the articles (paragraphs) in corresponding rows of a wide right column.

                                • 14. Re: Paragraph Numbering Legal Style
                                  Fred12345999 Level 1

                                  I am dealing with the chicken and egg problem. How do you get the courts to switch to the neutral citation format when there are no tools available? How you get the tool makers to support the problem when relatively few courts are using the format?

                                   

                                  Good work around that court clerks could use, the could get the ball rolling.

                                  • 15. Re: Paragraph Numbering Legal Style
                                    TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    If you've got a lot of this to do, I think John's suggestion of doing it manually is not practical.

                                     

                                    This needs an InDesign automated solution (script). I've got the best line numbering script for InDesign currently available out there, and I would be interested in developing it further so that it can cope with this legal style, if you say this is a style that is becoming more common.

                                     

                                    If you're interested, please send me an email at admin (at) freelancebookdesign.com. I'd be glad to try and help out.

                                     

                                    Ariel

                                    • 16. Re: Paragraph Numbering Legal Style
                                      Obi-wan Kenobi Adobe Community Professional

                                      ID can easily number paras you want (eventually, each line in it) like in the screenshot.

                                       

                                      The difficulty is vertically center an alone numbering for each para. If you want it at the top or the bottom, it's basic.

                                       

                                      However, [JS] can do it because It can count the lines of each para.

                                       

                                      @John, use tables is binding, if only at the level of change of page.

                                       

                                      Capture d’écran 2014-04-01 à 19.18.37.png

                                      • 17. Re: Paragraph Numbering Legal Style
                                        John Mensinger Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        Obi-wan Kenobi wrote:

                                         

                                        @John, use tables is binding

                                         

                                        Yes, it is, and in some situations, that's a good thing.

                                        • 18. Re: Paragraph Numbering Legal Style
                                          Obi-wan Kenobi Adobe Community Professional

                                          @ John, we agree. I love tables.

                                           

                                          @ Ariel, you're not the only one to have developed such a tool. If someone wants to look into the matter and send us an [JS] that counts the lines in a paragraph (to choose) and paste on the line (n-1) / 2 (rounded to the unit) a single anchored block (from the paperboard), it will seriously accommodate our friend.

                                          • 19. Re: Paragraph Numbering Legal Style
                                            TᴀW Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                            There are a few other scripts out there (well, I can think of one at least), but as I said in post #5, using anchored objects in a long document to number each paragraph is a disaster -- InDesign crawls to a halt. Have a look again at what I wrote about that in post 5.

                                             

                                            My script has by far the most features and is more highly optimised than any other numbering script for InDesign on the Web that I'm aware of. It also keeps InDesign flying even with documents that have hundreds of pages.

                                             

                                            I'm not just trying to plug my script here! I really think that if the OP is serious about getting a solution to his problem that works in a real-world environment, he should check out my script, and be in contact with me to get it to do exactly what he needs. I think that's the best advice to give.

                                             

                                            Ariel

                                            • 20. Re: Paragraph Numbering Legal Style
                                              Fred12345999 Level 1

                                              It's sounding more like it is possible with scripting. Let me throw in the final piece of the puzzle:

                                               

                                              The number needs to be bound to the paragraph, rather than being calculated. The number needs to be invariant. Currently, for example, the paragraph numbers assigned by LexisNexis to a Oregon in Oregon Reports opinion come out different in West's Pacific Reports.

                                               

                                              InDesign might be the tool that assigns the number. However, after doing so, it would need to store the number in some kind of user data within the file.

                                               

                                              Or the number may come through a user field in a word processor and need to be read by inDesign.

                                               

                                              I'm looking at the whole process here.