29 Replies Latest reply on Apr 7, 2014 12:50 PM by rob day

    Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6

    Karffe Level 1

      Hello everyone! Please give me someone an information about this issue...

      All i have in indesign is cmyk color space in all contents, i have set up the transparency blending option to CMYK (edit > transparency blending > cmyk) but when i set the gradient feather on image 1 i have very bad result the transparency is greyscaled not transparent.

       

      I try everything but nothin works for me, please help me somebody.

       

      example 1 show the bad result in cmyk blending transparency

      example 2 show the better result with rgb blending transparency with cmyk contents !!!

      why i can not set the cmyk transparency blending option? because i have bad result and i do not uderstand that

      cmyk-transparency-blend.jpg

        • 1. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

          I cannot reproduce this. Have ytou tried repalcing your prefs? See Replace Your Preferences

          • 2. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
            rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            Are you sure the image under the blend is CMYK and not RGB? Try making the black mix in the gradient a rich black—something like 40|30|30|100 instead of 0|0|0100

            • 3. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
              Karffe Level 1

              Thank you for your short answer but it's look like you do not understand to my problem...

              i try restore my preferences folders and nothing has changed....

               

              I send one more picture that describes the problem, the picture bellow...

               

              Please i need explaint what is going on, i really understand more stuff about print and etc. but this blew my mind...

              problem-with-transparency-blending.jpg

              • 4. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                There is no new image -- attachemtns are not allowed, but I understood you to say this was a problem when you apply a transparency gradient feather to your image. As I said, I cannot make it happen using a transparency gradient applied to any image, regardless of the blending space or the image color mode.

                 

                If my understanding is incorrect about what you are doing (perhaps there is some sort of other effect or blending mode being applied as well as the feather?) you will need to give a full explanation of the process. You may also want to try an export to .idml. See Remove minor corruption by exporting

                • 5. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
                  Karffe Level 1

                  my process:

                  All my adobe aplications are sync with color profiles...

                   

                  i have vreate new indesign document in transparency blend space: cmyk

                  i create box with cmyk black 0 0 0 100

                  on the this box i create another one and link it with picture in cmyk color space and set transparency some like 50% or less and see the bad result because the image goes not to the transparency or to the grey color, i do not know how to better explain my issue but i belive that do you understand, it is pretty eassy issue but must be resolve for my print document in cmyk colors

                   

                  I add link to video which shows my problem... please have look at this

                  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GL0YBvKVqu0&feature=youtu.be

                  • 6. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
                    rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    You have to add CMY if you want to use a CMYK blend space. So if you set your blend space to CMYK you can either make the black fill 0|0|0| RGB or a black with CMY like 60|50|50|100:

                     

                    Screen Shot 2014-04-05 at 3.17.25 PM.png

                    • 7. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      Works the same in Photoshop:

                       

                      Screen Shot 2014-04-05 at 3.23.43 PM.png

                       

                      Screen Shot 2014-04-05 at 3.23.13 PM.png

                      • 8. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                        I think what you are seeing is inevitable when you reduce the opacity of your image to a very low value in front of a black background you still have the 100% K, but virtually not C,M, or Y left.

                         

                        I think you would have better luck doing something like adding a white layer (masked to fit the non-transparent areas of your image) in Photoshop above your image and reduce the opacity that to lighten the image, then place that lightened image at 100% opaciity so it knocks out your black background.

                        • 9. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
                          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          must be resolve for my print document in cmyk colors

                           

                          You have to watchout for exceeding the press profile's total ink limit when you use transparancy with heavy ink coverage. You are probably better off using the RGB blend space and exporting a PDF/X-4 which will enforce the CMYK profile's total ink limit when the page is output.

                          • 10. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                            OK, here's a really bad screen cap showing the differnce between lightening in Photoshop and using transparency:

                            Lightened against black.png

                             

                            All five images are the same .psd. The "full strength" version on the left has the white overlay layer turned off using the object layer options in ID. The top two onthe right have the layer turned on (it's set to 42% opacity in Photoshop). The bottom two on the right have the whit layer turned off and are set by eyballing to 45% opacity in ID to more or less match the appearance before putting them against the background.

                            • 11. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              If Karffe can find a way to stay with the CMYK blend mode and get the richness of his first post's number 2, he would have to have a very high total ink.

                               

                              So if I flip the image and black and apply the transparancy to the black along with multiply I get the RGB effect. Black frame is set to 40% with Multiply bend, but the total ink gets extreme:

                               

                               

                              Screen Shot 2014-04-05 at 4.18.27 PM.png

                               

                              Screen Shot 2014-04-05 at 4.18.42 PM.png

                               

                              Message was edited by: Rob Day

                              • 12. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
                                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                As usual, I think I have a very different interpretation of the complaint.

                                • 13. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
                                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  Isn't Karffe's complaint about the color appearance? It seems like your example has the same flat color problem. I think you have to be careful with the CMYK transparency blend mode and total ink, my example is at 380%. Seems like this is a case for using RGB transparency.

                                  • 14. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
                                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                    My interpretation was that the colors were going to gray, and I think my photoshop method mimics the appearance of applying transparency with no background when used over a background, if that makes sense. There is no blending taking place, so no new ink limit issue. I didn't spend a lot of time matching the transparent image to the white-masked one, justr a quick eyball as I moved the slider, so the numbers don't match exactly, and I don't know that they ever would, but I think this is about appearance, not numbers.

                                     

                                    I really don't understand what you are showing in your screen shots, by the way.

                                    • 15. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
                                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      I really don't understand what you are showing in your screen shots, by the way.

                                       

                                      Any time you use CMYK transparancy blend mode with dark colors there's the risk of exceeding the document CMYK profile's total ink limit—the printer would have to somehow force a CMYK-to-CMYK conversion or reject the job.

                                       

                                      In my #11 the left image has default [Black] multiplying at 40% and it looks the same whether the blend mode is RGB or CMYK—it doesn't flatten out when the transparency mode is CMYK—Karffe's complaint.

                                       

                                      But, the total ink  makes the page unprintable on a typical production press. In the bottom capture I've set my Separation Preview panel to show Ink Limit violations over 350% (the red highlights).

                                       

                                      If we were trying to build the image and transparancy in Photoshop, I'm sure we would work in RGB mode and there wouldn't be a problem.

                                      • 16. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
                                        Karffe Level 1

                                        Ok, i really thanks for your answers... and tips

                                         

                                        But i have many question but this is very hard to tell

                                         

                                        1. I understand that i need check the ink limit (max to 350% right?) for ptint production
                                        2. I understand that i can not be able to create easy transparency on the image frame without color which goes gray...
                                        3. I try to blend both of the same picture in indesign with transparency and i have good result, better than i blend image frame on the frame with 100% k

                                         

                                        to rob Day

                                        1. can i fix that problem with blending in cmyk document of the indesign by adding more colors like you wrote to me? I mean "rich" black 60|50|50|100:, is this normal solution? It works for me, i try use 100 100 100 100 (reg. black) it look good but this is unusual for print to use this full cmyk colors but you tell me that i can use the 60 50 50 100, if this is normal solution a use this.

                                        >>>>If we were trying to build the image and transparancy in Photoshop, I'm sure we would work in RGB mode and there wouldn't be a problem.

                                        • i do not understand because i have all files in Indesign in cmyk color space, all linked content is in cmyk.... not in rgb. I create and edit picture in photoshop in rgb but in final time i convert it to cmyk and link it to indesign

                                         

                                        Only way to create nice looks transparency blend in cmyk document on the black is add more color to othe colors CMY? ok

                                        • 17. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
                                          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                          I create and edit picture in photoshop in rgb but in final time i convert it to cmyk and link it to indesign

                                           

                                          Right that's the equivalent of using the RGB Blend space in InDesign. Depending on the needs of the printer using an RGB blend space might not be a problem. Can you provide a PDF with live transparency (PDF/X-4)?

                                          • 18. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
                                            rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                            (max to 350% right?) for print production

                                             

                                            Depends on the printer and the CMYK profile US SWOP is 300, US Sheetfed is 350, Fogra39 is 330.

                                            • 19. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
                                              Karffe Level 1

                                              can i fix that problem with blending in cmyk document of the indesign by adding more colors like you wrote to me? I mean "rich" black 60|50|50|100:, is this normal solution? It works for me, i try use 100 100 100 100 (reg. black) it look good but this is unusual for print to use this full cmyk colors but you tell me that i can use the 60 50 50 100, if this is normal solution a use this???

                                               

                                              please answer me to this question if i can edit the black with this values 60 50 50 100 without black limit colour higher than 300% etc

                                              i need to know if this is normal solution for my blending issue (question #1) thank you and have a nice day

                                              • 20. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
                                                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                if i can edit the black with this values 60 50 50 100 without black limit colour higher than 300% etc

                                                 

                                                If you keep the Transparency Blending space as CMYK you'll have to check the total ink of the affected pages via Separation Preview>Ink Limit. It's probably not a problem in your #1 image where there's not a very dark black point, but would very likely be a problem with your #3 where the image has large areas of black.

                                                 

                                                How are you delivering the job? There's not a problem with using the RGB blend space if you can deliver PDF/X-4 with live transparency. In that case you'll get the color you are looking for and the ink will be correctly limited at output.

                                                • 21. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
                                                  Karffe Level 1

                                                  If i corectly understand to your answer, i can work in rgb transparency blend space in idesign and then i only export pdf in cmyk presets... ok?

                                                   

                                                  1. total ink max value will be in spot where are for example 100 100 100 100 cmyk ? (registration black) do i understand right?
                                                  2. i can create the nice looks transparency when i add to cmyk cmy colors like you wrote to me...
                                                  3. i can create the nice looks transparency when i use the rgb transparency blend space and then i export to pdf in cmyk mode?
                                                  4. PDF/X-4 with live transparency = this is one of the default presets in export menu of the indesign pdf export window, what it's means that is live transparency?

                                                   

                                                  Thank you very much

                                                  • 22. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
                                                    Karffe Level 1

                                                    The weird thing is.... that...

                                                    if i work in cmyk transparency blend space and import to the indesign to the frame cmyk image content and overlay them and use the transparency... loks nice, right what i need!

                                                     

                                                    but when i work in the same transparency blend space cmyk and import the same picture in cmyk color space and under this image frame i put the background with cmyk black the result is grey transparency...

                                                     

                                                    i do not understant why is this so weird, when i have two pictures on each other i have nice looks transparency feather but when i put this same image on the black background black 100% is so bad...

                                                    please explain me the difference in this proces because i do not understand that...

                                                    • 23. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
                                                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                      please explain me the difference in this proces because i do not understand that...

                                                       

                                                      The effect of transparency changes depending on the color mode, that's why you get this warning when you try to change color modes in Photoshop when there is transparency:

                                                       

                                                      Screen Shot 2014-04-06 at 3.56.42 PM.png

                                                       

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      I can replicate your problem in Photoshop by layering transparent black on an RGB and CMYK version of the same image (Here are the 2 example files—http://www.zenodesign.com/forum/TransExample.zip) :

                                                       

                                                      Screen Shot 2014-04-06 at 3.52.56 PM.png

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      InDesign makes things even more complex because you can have different transparent color modes on the same page and you can choose different blending spaces. If color is important I take the extra time to create transparency in a Photoshop RGB file where there's more color contol and I can see the affect of a CMYK conversion and flattening.

                                                      • 24. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
                                                        rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                        If i corectly understand to your answer, i can work in rgb transparency blend space

                                                         

                                                        If there is the risk of exceeding total ink, then using the RGB blend space would work, but it looks like the objects (black and the image)  also have to be RGB. The ink limit will be enforced when the RGB objects get converted to CMYK on export or output.

                                                        • 25. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
                                                          Karffe Level 1

                                                          Thank you for answer but i have problem with transparency image blend but also with your example (psd files)...

                                                          I try to create the same image like you send to me (rgb version) and created the opacity gradient mask and convert to cmyk and import to indesign

                                                           

                                                          but it's still looks on the cmyk black background like grey colored transparency... like on the image bellow... Is still the same like my #1 question. When i prepare the image with transparency in photoshop is the final result the same like i try make the transparency right in indesign usinf the effect: gradient feather.

                                                           

                                                           

                                                          upper image show the result blendingon the black cmyk frame, the second one show the opacity gradient on the white background, one fix works for me is add more colors to other color C, M, Y is this normal? Why is there big problem with transparency in cmyk space? I have to work only in RGB transaprency blend space for print production?

                                                           

                                                          Thank you

                                                          cmyk.jpg

                                                          • 26. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
                                                            rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                            one fix works for me is add more colors to other color C, M, Y is this normal?

                                                             

                                                            There's no problem with doing that as long as you check the total ink.

                                                             

                                                            Why is there big problem with transparency in cmyk space?

                                                             

                                                            There are many problems with editing in CMYK and transparency can be one of them. In most cases it's better to edit in an RGB space then flatten and convert to CMYK (if you feel compelled to place CMYK), or place the RGB and let the CMYK conversion happen at export or output.

                                                             

                                                            So here I've made the transparency mask in Photoshop AdobeRGB, placed the layered RGB file in ID, and exported to PDF/X-4 setting the export to convert to document CMYK.

                                                             

                                                            Here are the files http://www.zenodesign.com/forum/RGBTrans.zip

                                                             

                                                             

                                                            Screen Shot 2014-04-07 at 8.44.56 AM.png

                                                            • 27. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
                                                              Karffe Level 1

                                                              Thank you for your time...Rob. I try to figure out thru the time

                                                               

                                                              • 28. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
                                                                Karffe Level 1

                                                                in your link to download are document indesign with cmyk transparency blend space but the psd file are rgb, nevermind this?

                                                                 

                                                                • So here I've made the transparency mask in Photoshop AdobeRGB, placed the layered RGB file in ID, and exported to PDF/X-4 setting the export to convert to document CMYK.

                                                                can i export pdf with preset: print quality?

                                                                • 29. Re: Problem with cmyk transparency blending in Indesign cs6
                                                                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                  in your link to download are document indesign with cmyk transparency blend space but the psd file are rgb, nevermind this?

                                                                  In my example the Photoshop transparency doesn't interact with any InDesign page element so the InDesign blend space can be either CMYK or RGB without affecting the color.

                                                                   

                                                                  If I took away the black background in Photoshop and let the Photshop transparency interact with a black object on the InDesign page, we would be back to the original color problem. In that case I could either make the blend space RGB or the black object 0|0|0 RGB. If I make the object RGB black it will convert to the richest CMYK black allowed by the document's CMYK profile. US SWOP Coated converts to something like 74|68|67|90.

                                                                   

                                                                   

                                                                  can i export pdf with preset: print quality?

                                                                   

                                                                  If you mean Press Quality, yes. The Press Quality preset doesn't include profiles, so you have to be sure your document's assigned profile is correct for the destination press, because that's the profile that will be used to make the conversion on export.