35 Replies Latest reply on Jun 1, 2014 9:36 AM by A.T. Romano

    Premiere Elements 12 Project

    mountaingirlbl Level 1

      I want to give the Details first as I see that is what is needed to get any help.

       

      Brand New Lenovo Laptop,  app 5 weeks old. - It  has windows 7 Professional - 64 bit operating system, 146 gb free -  8 GB Memory - ( Just added 4 it started with 4)

       

       

      Premiere Elements 12 - Got my first video on this system about 1/2 way done. ( I edited once before on movie maker and finished it on Premiere 12)  It is very large with lots of video clips and stills from about 9 different people, so I am guessing, 9 different cameras, Ipods and tape. ( have not worked on the one from tape yet, it is down the road, Right now when I play it, it does not move, the audio does, but the pictures do not change. I have rendered a lot.

      I know I probably should have made several smaller videos and joined them together, but I was afraid after doing some research that I would not be able to put them together. I am putting together a lot of our family experiences from the Colorado Flood 2013, and I have gathered the video clips and stills from family members, neighbors and friends.

       

      I have not been saving it on an external drive, so my personal feeling right now is that I am getting a clogged up disk and I need to know exactly HOW to get the stuff transferred to a external, but I do not know where to start.

      I can see a lot of build up like when it renderers, saved and etc. I also heard on the Premeire On-line class that I should clear out the cacus, I think it was but I have not done that, I am a little nervous to do the wrong thing.

      That about sums it up, so hope you can set me straight on a few things.   Need any more info just ask!!

      My question is what do I need to do now to get this so it moves again?

        • 1. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
          Jim_Simon Level 8

          [Moved to Premiere Elements forum.]

          • 2. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
            mountaingirlbl Level 1

            Sorry, I don't know how to use this website. So I just started up my Premiere - Unplugged from the internet, turned off my Kaspersky Security and at this point it is working. I only watched a small amount just to see. I don't think I paused my security last time or unplugged from the internet. It seems that I am right on the edge!!!

            Another question that I had was in another thread we were told that the Asset and Presetting had to match exactly.. I have no idea what that means!!

            • 3. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
              mountaingirlbl Level 1

              I am open to any suggestions that you may have on my situation. Thanks

              • 4. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                mountaingirlbl Level 1

                Decided to watch it to see if it would go the distance - nope- about 5 min in it stopped moving.

                • 5. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                  A.T. Romano Level 7

                  mountaingirlbl

                   

                  Sorry I am behind in my reply. Just catching up with you now. I had been working on the how to for starting your own thread. But, I see that you do not need that information. Great job in setting up your thread here.

                   

                  When you start a new project, you or the program needs to set a project preset. That project preset directs the program to set up the correct space in the Edit area monitor from which to edit your video. That is why the properties of your source video should match the description of the project preset. The project preset has other functions, such as, directing the program as to what disc menus to show you when you get to Tools/Movie Menu. It also has some subtle effects which we will omit for now.

                   

                  In Premiere Elements 12, the program takes over setting the project preset. Sometimes it does it OK, sometimes not. For those not moments, then you set the project preset manually yourself. The how to for the manual setting of the project preset is described toward the bottom of the following.

                  ATR Premiere Elements Troubleshooting: PE11: Accuracy of Automatic Project Preset (New Project Dialog) Setting

                   

                  Now if you are videos with different formats, that can present a challenge for you since the program allows for only one project preset. In cases of the "mixed" Timeline, then best set priorities and then fit everything else around it, maybe a little scaling here and there in the Edit area monitor.

                   

                  This whole project preset/source media business hinges on getting good video properties details. There are video readout programs such as MediaInfo for that, but I like to try getting the information from the brand/model/settings of the camera that recorded the video. It is not as complete as the MediaInfo data but it is quicker for the user at times.

                   

                  Please review and then let me know how I can clarify anything that might get classed as "What is that person talking about?" I do not mind rewriting to clarify if necessary.

                   

                  Thanks.

                   

                  ATR

                  • 6. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                    A.T. Romano Level 7

                    mountaingirlbl

                     

                    If you are doing a lot of rendering, that will give you the best possible previews of what you are seeing in the Edit area monitor when you play back your Timeline content there. That is the good news. The other side of things is that the program is generating preview files in your rendering activities. These files can pile up to GB+ amounts and kill your hard drive space. USB external hard drive (formatted NTFS not FAT32 is a good idea) - 500 GB to 1 TB capacity for starters.

                     

                    Another check point are those Scratch Disks. See Edit Menu/Preferences/Scratch Disks. Just make sure that you have them pointed to a hard drive save location with plenty of free space.

                     

                    Definitely do the mini test runs before the grand project.

                     

                    With your varied source of project media, you will need to set priorities, and I would do the manual setting of the project preset to match the properties of what you consider your prime source. Then fit everything else in accordingly.

                     

                    At the onset, please determine if the antivirus is working for or against you with your Premiere Elements projects.

                     

                    Right now target the project preset and the properties of your source media. All sorts of possible wrinkles to iron out there.

                    a. cell phone video that probably uses a variable frame rate and needs that changed to a constant frame rate, but that is not a given. Nonetheless needs to be checked out.

                    b. Photo pixel dimensions that are grossly oversized for the project. The extent of much you can try to get away with needs to be determined based on your computer resources.

                    c. Some problematic source video formats...MotionJPEG.avi, AVCHD or H.264.avi, Xvid.avi, DV.avi Type 1 (Premiere Elements used DV.avi Type 2).

                     

                    Please review and consider and then let us know where you supplemental information.

                     

                    Thanks.

                     

                    ATR

                    • 7. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                      mountaingirlbl Level 1

                      Hi, thanks for your reply.

                      I did get the thread started, however someone had to move it for me, I still do not know how to get it in the right forum and I still have quite a time finding my posts, is there anywhere that tells us where to find our posts? I always type Premiere Elements in the search box to find us. I am sure there is a simple way.

                       

                      I have already  did some pre-setting, trying to follow the instructor on the on-line class that I down loaded. I will work on those some more. Sounds like Premiere 12 has probably done it's job, but I will continue to monitor those settings. I will probably ask more questions later on that.

                       

                      Yes, I think the pile-ups are getting me for sure. I have several TD Elements External Hard Drives , but they all have data on them, so I think I will order another one of those. The last 2 I bought were 2gb so I will not get anything smaller than that. It has NTFS, I just double checked. Does that sound acceptable to you. I have never had any problems with them.

                      I do not have the Scratch Disks going to any external drive at this point. I did do a cache clean up last night. I guess you cannot tell what it did without checking to see if the hard drive has more space, is that right? I thought maybe it would show less on where it says , mine anyone, appeared to be 50% full, that does not change?

                       

                      Right now I am going to focus on getting the computer hooked to an external that I can dump into, is it alright to move all of those rendered previews over to the external that I already have on my hard drive? Can I move anything over there that looks like it came from Premiere? Is there any that I can delete and be safe?

                       

                      Thanks so much, I will be printing this info off and putting in my notebook for reference. I am not going to try to advance on the editing until I get some space opened up.

                       

                      Not sure how you peeps keep up with everyone. lol

                       

                      Thanks again!!

                      • 8. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                        mountaingirlbl Level 1

                        After reading of all of the concerns about the "quality" of the final DVD, I am getting this sinking feeling because this has been to much work to not end up with good quality output!! I also know from my last experience working with Movie Maker that it is highly possible!! So if there is anything that I need to know or be doing right now to improve that, I sure would like to know the best steps to be taking.   Thanks again.

                        • 9. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                          A.T. Romano Level 7

                          mountaingirlbl

                           

                          Major consideration...do not move, delete, or rename any of your source media that are going into a project in project (save/closed to be open in the immediate further). If you do, you will get into some nasty media disconnect situation. When it comes time not to have to worry about that, then think about archiving the project (See File Menu/Project Archiver/Archive this project or Copy options.)

                          http://help.adobe.com/en_US/premiereelements/using/WS09e4b3c48f3a79fc19b622510385d4355c-7d cb.html

                           

                          The consequences of deleting preview files are focused at re-rendering if and when you need to get the best possible preview in the Edit area monitor. Preview files are just a previewing matter.

                           

                          The consequences of deleting conformed audio and video are focused at the thought "nothing to do". The program will generate them anew automatically if and when needed.

                           

                          If you are working with a Windows computer, then best have the external hard drive with format NTFS rather than FAT32. And, always check to make sure that the drive letter of that drive is not spontaneously changing on you. Impacts Premiere Elements' tracing back to the project's source files which are stored on that external hard drive. Source needs to be where is was at import into the project.

                           

                          I am still navigating myself around the newly updated Adobe Forums. To fine our prior threads, try finding your Adobe Forum user name next to one of your posts in this thread. Click on it. Then look for a header named Activities.

                           

                          ATR

                          • 10. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                            A.T. Romano Level 7

                            mountaingirlbl

                             

                            If you have set up the project with the best possible project preset, taken care of "fields considerations" if your source was interlaced video with Upper Field First, and have optimized your burn to where opportunities existed for that, you are on a good course.

                             

                            In the burn dialog, do the burn to with "Fit Content to Available Space" and look carefully at the Quality area readout there for Space Required and Bitrate. Once you see a Bitrate less than 8.00 Mbps there, the program is working to make the fit by lowering the Bitrate. That lowers the file size but quality also. Lower the Bitrate, lower the quality.

                             

                            What size TV screen is involved in the TV viewing of your DVD-VIDEO on DVD disc? Check out the technology of your particular TV TV player. Many of the newer TV have technology to enhance DVD-VIDEO on DVD disc playback.

                             

                            ATR

                            • 11. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                              mountaingirlbl Level 1

                              Oh, Yes, I have had my experience with "where are the files" when I unplugged my external drive in my last video. It is NOT fun!!

                               

                              Thank you for the information on Archiving the Project. Have not done that before. I am not sure if I have the best possible settings or not, I will do some more checking on that. I know nothing about the "field considerations"  or the interlacied video with upper field first, and I do not remember having opportunities to optimized the burn, where would I see them??   I have sooo much to learn

                               

                              . My desire has been to take a class room class on Premiere, but I cannot find one. Would just a "Video Editing"

                              class help me much without it being specifically for Premiere Elements?

                               

                              I am surprised that you use the "Fit Content to Available Space," that looks like it would compress it even more. I was thinking of buying the larger capacity dvd so they would not have to be compressed so much. ( If I need to when I get to that point). I will watch for the Quality for Space Required and Bitrate.

                               

                              As for TV's, it is the same as my situation with the Video Clips and Stills, their will be a large variety being handed out.(hopefully, someday) What I did on my last one was Wide Screen and I don't think I did HD, HD is still a mystery for me, I know it takes a lot more space and what would be your recommendation for HD for the DVD? I would say most ( other than us) of the TV's would be the newer models and Wide Screen for sure!! Some bigger than that.

                              Whew!!! all these things to think about and I am trying to do such a complicated first time run!!!! That seems to be the story of my life. If I do it, I do it BIG!! OVER BIG!! (or not at all )  Anyway, I don't want to be a quit-er, but it sure is consuming me!! 

                               

                              Thanks for your help!!

                              • 12. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                                A.T. Romano Level 7

                                mountaingirlbl

                                 

                                Definitely go the "Fit Content to Available Space" route in the burn dialog for Premiere Elements' burn to DVD-VIDEO on DVD disc. The only time I would use that option without the check mark next to it is if I was to get a "Data Rate" error when I had a check mark next to "Fit Content to Available Space". To correct that particular error situation, I would have to remove the check mark next to that burn option and manually lower the Bitrate to the point where I no longer got the "Data Rate" message. I would have to do that to continue. There would be a trade off in being able to continue and working at a lower Bitrate where the quality might be diminished, the extent dependent on how low the Bitrate had to be lowered.

                                 

                                When and if you get to burn to Blu-ray, that is another story.

                                ATR Premiere Elements Troubleshooting: PE11: Blu-ray Burn Dialog "Fit Content to Available Space" Choice

                                 

                                The major thought about interlaced vs progressive video, interlaced frame presents as one frame with two fields inside of it; whereas progressive is one frame without "fields". And the interlaced frames are characterized by Upper Field First or Lower Field First for scan order. The following best explains the concept of interlaced video.

                                Interlacing - Luke's Video Guide

                                 

                                Now here is when it will be mattering to you. If you import interlaced video with scan order Upper Field First and you are heading for DVD-VIDEO on DVD disc which uses scan order Lower Field First, then some correction will probably be needed in the workflow.

                                a. Field Options/Reverse Field Dominance

                                or

                                b. Use of one of the Hard Drive Flash Memory Camcorder project presets

                                 

                                As you see one detail generates the need for more details. It is a continuing learning process. Some details of immediate use. Some saved for another time another project.

                                 

                                ATR

                                • 13. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                                  mountaingirlbl Level 1

                                  Thanks, maybe that is why my "quality" was not good on my last DVD. (However it was not made in Premiere, just finished up in Premiere to hopefully get a little bit better quality, which I think was some improvement) I did not use "Fit Content to Available Space".

                                   

                                  Thank you for the rest of the information, I will do some studying on it. Whew! Talk about "Over My Head"

                                  • 14. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                                    A.T. Romano Level 7

                                    moutaingirlbl

                                     

                                    You are doing fine. Once you settle into it, you will think "That is not so tough. I can do it."

                                     

                                    Best wishes.

                                     

                                    ATR

                                    • 15. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                                      mountaingirlbl Level 1

                                      I have a question about the best wayadd photo's to title psges. I put several on one the other day and it crashed after I did it.I think I forgot to render right away.  Now I am finding it hard to even make it happen. It looks like it can go in with the text or not. I am not having much luck with either. Another option which I have not tried is to use a photo for title and put text on it. Has anyone had experience with trying that? I also wonder if it is best to wait to the end to add the titles or do it as I go. I have put temporary ones in just as a guide to better see where I am at. I have not tried using markers yet, that is another learning curve.

                                      • 16. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                                        mountaingirlbl Level 1

                                        I do not understand the rating system. Are we suppose to do anything with thatÉ

                                        • 17. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                                          A.T. Romano Level 7

                                          mountaingirlbl

                                           

                                          The people who set up these forums no doubt have a plan for each of forum options displayed for us. Right now several of the plans need work in these newly updated Adobe Forums.  And many feature flaws are being looked at by Adobe Forum adminstrators as well as JIVE, the powered by. The Adobe Comments Forum is full of such discussion.

                                          Forum comments

                                           

                                          I will not go into all the details, but it is my impression that the rating system you see in each thread is probably not working as are the Adobe's point system and Top Participants posted data.

                                           

                                          From my point of view, what matters is a Premiere Elements user posting a reply in the thread "It works" as a result of the troubleshooting suggestion. Some feel that, if a reply fully answers a thread question, it should be marked Correct to help viewers to identify what worked. That is up to you.

                                           

                                          Bottom line: a lot of "work in progress" related to understanding the new forum options and structure.

                                           

                                          ATR

                                          • 18. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                                            A.T. Romano Level 7

                                            mountaingirlbl

                                             

                                            Premiere Elements 12 Windows.

                                             

                                            Some miscellaneous information and then some comments specific to your workflow.

                                             

                                            1. You can create a title in the Premiere Elements Titler, close the Titler, go to the Project Assets, highlight the title's thumbnail there, and go to File Menu/Export/Titles to save the title to the hard drive as a .prtl file. This file can be used in any Premiere Elements project. When you want to use that saved title in a particular project, then use Premiere Elements Add Media/Files and Folders/Project Assets from where you drag the title to the Timeline.

                                             

                                            2. The classical way to associate text/title with a photo is to move the Timeline Indicator to the place where you want the text/title to begin.

                                            Your photo or video is on Video Track 1. Then Text Menu/New Text/Default Text to open the Titler. The text file will automatically go to the position of the Timeline Indicator and Video Track 2.

                                             

                                            3. If you have a "title page", I am assuming your have text on a transparent background. You can add images to a "title page"

                                            a. When you are creating a title page in the Titler, there is an option to "Add Image", see Text Menu/Add Image.

                                            b. You can use multiple video tracks. On each video track, for each photo, scale down and position photo accordingly. And, have title on above track, with title position accordingly.

                                            c. There is always the Picture in Picture Effect (PiP). See fx Effects/Presets and explore and experiment with the static and not so statis PiP options for 25% and 40%.

                                            http://help.adobe.com/en_US/premiereelements/using/WSC360ECBD-97C2-4953-AD24-4DDB564930A2. html

                                            Adobe Premiere Elements 11 * Adding shapes and images to titles

                                             

                                            Please review and let us know if any of that helped.

                                             

                                            Thanks.

                                             

                                            ATR

                                             

                                            Add On...Keep watch on your resources as you work away. Avoid pile ups.

                                            • 19. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                                              mountaingirlbl Level 1

                                              I see!! Since I am  a newbie, I am not familiar with the What Was! Learning Curves for Everyone I guess!!

                                              • 20. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                                                mountaingirlbl Level 1

                                                Thank you on the information on the titles, that will be my next thing I do after I get hooked up to an external drive to accumulate some of the clutter. I will let you know when I try it again. Sorry I cannot give a instant answer, which would be nice. I have worked on this project for about a month and am so happy to find help!!!!!! I will be bugging you for quite some time. I am printing off your answers so I can study them. Thanks again!!

                                                • 21. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                                                  A.T. Romano Level 7

                                                  mountaingirlbl

                                                   

                                                  Premiere Elements is a continuing learning experience for beginner, intermediate, and advanced user. We all learn by the Q&A.

                                                   

                                                  Your questions make major contributions since others will benefit from the exchange of information.

                                                   

                                                  ATR

                                                  • 22. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                                                    mountaingirlbl Level 1

                                                    As I read other forum questions and answers it brings up more questions for me. I have some video clips that are laying on their side, can I rotate them by right clicking and rotating like someone suggested for the stills?

                                                    • 23. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                                                      A.T. Romano Level 7

                                                      mountaingirlbl

                                                       

                                                      Like stills, you can right click the Timeline video, and, from the pop up menu, select Rotate 90 Left or Rotate 90 Right.

                                                       

                                                      There is also the Rotate feature in Motion Panel expanded found via Applied Effects Tab/Applied Effects Palette/Motion Panel expanded. The feature is toward the middle of the Motion Panel expanded.

                                                       

                                                      ATR

                                                      • 24. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                                                        mountaingirlbl Level 1

                                                        Oh, Wow!!  Thanks!!

                                                        • 25. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                                                          mountaingirlbl Level 1

                                                          Can someone give me a link to understand more about the Firewire Storage and eSata Storage . I know about the speed to transfer data, but I want to know what the other pro's and con's are . I am considering getting for my external storage. I need more information and knowledge on them. I am way behind I know on technology!

                                                          • 26. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                                                            A.T. Romano Level 7

                                                            mountaingirlbl

                                                             

                                                            Most of the online buying guide and articles for an external hard drive seem to be pointing to USB 3.0. On example dated 2013...

                                                            Comparing eSATA vs. USB 3.0 | PCMag.com

                                                             

                                                            Others

                                                            2011

                                                            http://www.pcmech.com/article/usb-3-0-vs-esata/

                                                             

                                                            2012

                                                            http://usbtips.com/esata-vs-usb-3-0/

                                                             

                                                            Google search brings up loads of comments on all this. For your Windows computer, I would probably go with a USB 3.0 external hard drive formated NTSC rather than FAT32.

                                                             

                                                            ATR

                                                            • 27. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                                                              mountaingirlbl Level 1

                                                              Thank you for those, I will research them. Another question came to mind which I am also confused about. I keep hearing the D Drive referred to as a second drive for storage. Now, I know what the D Drive is, for CD's and DVD's but I cannot for the life of me figure out how that would be used like another drive for storage. Surely they are not talking about saving to CD's and DVD's??

                                                              • 28. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                                                                A.T. Romano Level 7

                                                                mountaingirlbl

                                                                 

                                                                Supplemental drives can be internal or external.hard drive. External hard drive is convenient since you do not have to open up the computer housing to install it (and you might not have the room inside there for another internal drive). And, the external hard drive has the mobility perk.  Conveniently plug and play and unplug and take it to another computer. The drive letter for either would depend on the prior drives that the computer has when you go to install the supplemental drive.

                                                                 

                                                                Short story...I found myself with a spare internal DVD burner and no place to use it. I purchased what is called an enclosure, put the internal DVD burner instead the enclosure and had myself a useful external DVD burner. Easy to do, provided you get the right connections. A similar situation might be expected to exist for a spare internal hard drive.

                                                                 

                                                                Lots of Google articles on internal and external hard drives. The external ones seem to be winning out on the preferred list.

                                                                 

                                                                ATR

                                                                • 29. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                                                                  mountaingirlbl Level 1

                                                                  I think you are right! I have used a lot of external and never had any problems. One Other question?? I had a owner of a Video Editing Business tell me to stay away from the automatic downloaded externals. They have seen some problems with them. Any experience and hopefully they still make them.   If it says -

                                                                  It includes a free trial of WD SmartWare Pro™ backup software for local and cloud backup.. Does that mean it is already built into the external hard drive?

                                                                  Built-in Devices

                                                                  • 30. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                                                                    mountaingirlbl Level 1

                                                                    -

                                                                    If it says -

                                                                    It includes a free trial of WD SmartWare Pro™ backup software for local and cloud backup.. Does that mean it is already built into the external hard drive?

                                                                    • 31. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                                                                      A.T. Romano Level 7

                                                                      mountaingirlbl

                                                                       

                                                                      The way that is described, it sounds like it is software bundled in with the external hard drive either on a separate disc or as an option on the external hard drive installation disc. Beware of unwanted carry alongs with those options.

                                                                       

                                                                      Not installing this particular product as backup software should not prohibit you from using your external hard drive for storage purposes. So, you can decide what you want as part of a back up for your situation. Many suggest a focus of backup of data since the computer operating system can be replaced but precious pictures, videos and the like cannot.

                                                                       

                                                                      These days the most innocent looking downloads can present with a lot of junk that messes up your browser and computer. So proceed with caution if you are instructed by the manufacturer of the external hard drive to download the backup software (as oppose to installing it from a disc included with the external hard drive packaging).

                                                                       

                                                                      ATR

                                                                      • 32. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                                                                        mountaingirlbl Level 1

                                                                        Thank You,

                                                                        I do not recall ever have any installation disc with the WD Elements that I have bought in the past. As I recall they were just plug and play, but I cannot find the 3.0 with this option I mentioned above. I have been looking for 2 T with the 3.0 but it all has this option from what I can tell.

                                                                        • 33. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                                                                          A.T. Romano Level 7

                                                                          mountaingirlbl

                                                                           

                                                                          If you are seeking a USB 3.0 WD Elements which comes with this WD Smartware Pro tryout, this link seems to describe it.

                                                                          Notice that it mentions getting the WD Smartware Pro tryout as a download. So I would assume no packaged in installation disc for that backup software.

                                                                          WD Elements

                                                                           

                                                                          ATR

                                                                          • 34. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                                                                            mountaingirlbl Level 1

                                                                            Sorry, I did mean without the option, I think we are getting closer to what I want, as it does look like an optional download which I will not do!!!!!!! I did go into wd.com and found that the "wd elements desktop" does not have the automatic back-up,"the book " does,  the download option free trial option is there, but I will not!! 

                                                                            Thanks for all of your help

                                                                            • 35. Re: Premiere Elements 12 Project
                                                                              A.T. Romano Level 7

                                                                              mountaingirlbl

                                                                               

                                                                              Contact with WD about its products may be the best way to go. From the looks of it, that WD Elements needs a download of the WD Smartware Pro (as you have discovered). When I was roaming around that web site, it appeared that another model external hard drive did include an installation disc for the WD Smartware Pro. Did you see that also?

                                                                               

                                                                              ATR