8 Replies Latest reply on Jun 18, 2014 9:11 AM by MichaelFleming

    Brackets ( and ) not being handle properly by InDesign ME

    michael.c.fleming

      We are seeing a problem Adobe InDesign ME and the way it handles ( and ) brackets. We import Arabic Word files in with correctly setup ( and ) brackets. These are setup with the correct Unicode characters U0028 and U0029. When we Place the Arabic Word file into InDesign ME (CS6) the brackets switch Unicode characters so U0028 become U0029 and U0029 becomes U0028. InDesign ME then tells it that the character is a Right-to-Left character and flips it so visually it looks like a Left Bracket [(] agaijn. We are very confused as to why this has to happen. Has anyone any knowledge of this. It looks like a case of two wrongs making a visual right.

       

      Regards

       

      Michael

        • 1. Re: Brackets ( and ) not being handle properly by InDesign ME
          Salah Fadlabi Level 5

          No problem here, indeisgn cs6 ME and MS (2007) word file .docx

          word2.jpg

          • 2. Re: Brackets ( and ) not being handle properly by InDesign ME
            michael.c.fleming Level 1

            Hi Salah

             

            Thanks for your response. Visually it looks fine to us as well but the problem is that the it's only visually, the underlining Unicode character has been changed. we work in mainly in the Pharmaceutical industry and we have to run comprehensive checks (using special comparison software) on the original Word file versus the PDF we export from InDesign ME. Because of the change in the Unicode character by InDesign every bracket appears as an error. We're trying to understand why InDesign would do this. Sure it's just much easier to leave it as the original Unicode character rather than changing it and then marking it as a RTL character.

             

            regards

             

            Michael

            • 3. Re: Brackets ( and ) not being handle properly by InDesign ME
              Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              I often have to make a character style "Overt RTL" and assign it to a single space, because InDesign tries to assign direction to parentheses (and other similar open-and-close glyphs) by, I dunno, "context"? "Hey, this is a number, it flows LTR, it's marked as English... it must be an LTR open-parenthesis!"  It's not very smart about it. Make liberal use of marking things as "Default, No Language" and you can minimize the amount of this amount of nonsense you have to deal with. But if you need an RTL workflow that can go, ah, bidirectionally between Word and ID, you'll need to avoid having spaces marked with default character direction around quote marks and brackets and parentheses and et cetera.

               

              The nice thing about the technique of marking a space with a charstyle that overtly declares RTL direction is that it survives an InDesign -> RTF -> InDesign roundtrip.

              • 4. Re: Brackets ( and ) not being handle properly by InDesign ME
                michael.c.fleming Level 1

                Interesting. I was hoping that Adobe would have a better approach to it then this. Have you ever approached Adobe on it and reported it as a problem?

                • 5. Re: Brackets ( and ) not being handle properly by InDesign ME
                  Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  The last time we discussed this on the forums, I think that it was described as "functioning as designed."

                  • 6. Re: Brackets ( and ) not being handle properly by InDesign ME
                    MichaelFleming

                    'Designed' implies that the put some thought into it before they came up with a random set of steps in relation to brackets!!!!!

                     

                    We see a somewhat similar problem with the diacritics. In Word the order is slightly different then in the PDF from InDesign. Again it looks like InDesign is mis-handling the Arabic characters and for certain characters it transposes the order of the characters.

                    • 7. Re: Brackets ( and ) not being handle properly by InDesign ME
                      Joel Cherney Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      Defending Adobe isn't really my job. (Hey Dov?) But it's not like a software developer can accidentally implement bidi text behavior in complex script. So I really doubt that the steps are "random". I don't love the fact that ID tries to "help" by assigning directionality to glyphs based on language settings and surrounding glyphs, but in my translation workflow this actually solves more problems than it causes. Your case (where you need identical visual behavior, and identical Unicode output, from two radically different text-formatting systems, and the ability to round-trip) is, speaking frankly, an edge case. I doubt that the possibility came up when they were developing RTL features in ID.

                       

                      You know you can insert Unicode text-direction markers into ID, right? You don't need to rely on ID's quasi-helpful toolset here, you can force bidi text flow just as you can in raw text with Unicode markers alone.

                       

                      If you can post more details, and maybe share a file, I bet I could cook up a way to mark up the text in ID such that the output would satisfy your incredibly picky QA app.

                      • 8. Re: Brackets ( and ) not being handle properly by InDesign ME
                        MichaelFleming Level 1

                        Yes you are correct 'random' was not the right word to choose, maybe illogical would have been better. I really would like to know what the thinking was in doing this and would it be something that would be addressed at a some stage by Adobe. While our requirements are a little bit niche in looking for identical Unicode output my thought is on it that is should be identical Unicode output so InDesign is screwing this up for us and adding hundreds of hours of work for us every year.

                         

                        Not sure how I share files though the community but I have some here if you have time to have a look at them. We were thinking that we might run some sort of GREP on them to switch them back to the correct Unicode character and Character Direction but we have concerns that it will disrupt the flow.