15 Replies Latest reply on Jun 25, 2014 1:50 PM by Sandee Cohen

    wrong apostroph (German)

    >Jens Neckermann

      InDesign makes this: … there isnt … this is wrong! And makes a lot of trouble, cost’s a lot of time!

      this would be correct: … there isnt …

      Who knows about any help


      jens.neckermann@t-online.de

        • 1. Re: wrong apostroph (German)
          Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          @Jens – on my Mac keyboard I type in alt + shift + # to get the right character:

           

          shift + #          =>    '

           

          alt + #             =>   

           

          alt + shift + #  => 


          And this is not InDesign only…

          (German keyboard settings)


          Uwe

          • 2. Re: wrong apostroph (German)
            Obi-wan Kenobi Adobe Community Professional

            Hi Uwe,

             

            I've encountered this kind of problem [in French].

            I've fixed it with a little QuicKeys. E.g., when I type ' (shortcut), I obtain b. Cool! 

             

            Capture d’écran 2014-06-22 à 11.35.36.png

             

            So, here, to obtain , just type .

             

            Capture d’écran 2014-06-22 à 11.40.46.png

             

            For me, on my keyboard, when I type alt + shift + #, I obtain Ÿ.

            • 3. Re: wrong apostroph (German)
              Sandee Cohen Adobe Community Professional

              Ich Deutsch gelernt, aber ich habe alles, was ich gelernt vergessen. Ich werde versuchen zu helfen, aber in Englisch.

               

              Type Cmd/Ctrl-K to open the preferences. Go to Dictionary.

               

              Set the Language to whichever type of German (or French) that you want.

               

              Click the setting for Single Quotes.

               

              Change it to the top setting which is the same setting as the one for English which I believe is what you want.

               

              You may also want to change the double quote setting, but I'm not sure.

               

              Click OK. You will now get the quote in the same position.

               

              However, I'm not sure as to why the default is wrong. I would imagine there is some reason why Adobe set the default the way it is.

              • 4. Re: wrong apostroph (German)
                >Jens Neckermann Level 1

                maybe my English is probabely worse than your

                German. Thanks for your answer, but that doesn't

                really help and it does not solve the problem or

                better: it does not repair the fault. It often

                happens to use simple quotations within doubble

                ones and I often use Guillemets (double and

                single). So it's no good idea to change the simple

                quotations - and besides this: the simple

                quotation is  not an apostrophe.

                 

                Jens 

                 

                "Sandee Cohen" <forums_noreply@adobe.com> schrieb:

                 

                wrong apostroph (German)

                created by Sandee Cohen in InDesign - View the

                full discussion

                 

                 

                Ich Deutsch gelernt, aber ich habe alles, was ich

                gelernt vergessen. Ich werde versuchen zu helfen,

                aber in Englisch.

                 

                Type Cmd/Ctrl-K to open the preferences. Go to

                Dictionary.

                 

                Set the Language to whichever type of German (or

                French) that you want.

                 

                Click the setting for Single Quotes.

                 

                Change it to the top setting which is the same

                setting as the one for English which I believe is

                what you want.

                 

                You may also want to change the double quote

                setting, but I'm not sure.

                 

                Click OK. You will now get the quote in the same

                position.

                 

                However, I'm not sure as to why the default is

                wrong. I would imagine there is some reason why

                Adobe set the default the way it is.

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                • 5. Re: wrong apostroph (German)
                  Sandee Cohen Adobe Community Professional

                  Jens,

                   

                  Your English ist sehr gut.

                   

                  I have a feeling InDesign can't help you exactly, but I'm confused.

                   

                  In English a single, closing apostrophe is a closing single quote.

                   

                  Can you post an image of what it is supposed to be in German?

                   

                  I honestly want to know.

                   

                  Regarding the Guillemets, you can change them in the preferences, but it's time consuming.

                   

                  There probably is a way to script the change, so you can do it easily. But for what language would you want it? German? French? Something else?

                   

                  It's very hard to keep up with Europe now that the EU has blended so many things together.

                  • 6. Re: wrong apostroph (German)
                    >Jens Neckermann Level 1

                    Hi Sandee,

                     

                    see the attachement.

                     

                    Jens 

                     

                    "Sandee Cohen" <forums_noreply@adobe.com> schrieb:

                     

                    wrong apostroph (German)

                    created by Sandee Cohen in InDesign - View the

                    full discussion

                     

                     

                    Jens,

                     

                    Your English ist sehr gut.

                     

                    I have a feeling InDesign can't help you exactly,

                    but I'm confused.

                     

                    In English a single, closing apostrophe is a

                    closing single quote.

                     

                    Can you post an image of what it is supposed to be

                    in German?

                     

                    I honestly want to know.

                     

                    Regarding the Guillemets, you can change them in

                    the preferences, but it's time consuming.

                     

                    There probably is a way to script the change, so

                    you can do it easily. But for what language would

                    you want it? German? French? Something else?

                     

                    It's very hard to keep up with Europe now that the

                    EU has blended so many things together. Please

                    note that the Adobe Forums do not accept email

                    attachments. If you want to embed a screen image

                    in your message please visit the thread in the

                    forum to embed the image at

                    https://forums.adobe.com/message/6484065#6484065

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                    • 7. Re: wrong apostroph (German)
                      >Jens Neckermann Level 1

                      unfortunately this does not work with InDesign CC

                      on a PC (even German keyboard design). So I keep

                      on typing Alt + 0146 on the number block. 

                       

                      "Laubender" <forums_noreply@adobe.com> schrieb:

                      wrong apostroph (German)

                      created by Laubender in InDesign - View the full

                      discussion

                       

                       

                      @Jens – on my Mac keyboard I type in alt + shift +

                      1. to get the right character:

                       

                      shift + #          =>    '

                       

                      alt + #             =>    ‘

                       

                      alt + shift + #  =>  ’

                       

                       

                      And this is not InDesign only…

                      (German keyboard settings)

                       

                       

                       

                      Uwe

                      Please note that the Adobe Forums do not accept

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                      • 8. Re: wrong apostroph (German)
                        Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                        Sandy, the problem is, the missing apostrophe is a different one than the quoting apostrophe in German.

                        • In German for spelling we can use »…« (in Germany and Austria toward the text, in Switzerland away from the text as it is written in France) or „…“ (look like small 99 down and 66 up) for double quotes and ›…‹ or ,…‘ for single quotes.
                        • The missing letter apostrophe is ’, which looks like 9 up.

                        Adobe is not doing a good job with German apostrophes, in Find & Replace it confuses all kind of single apostrophes and comma and missing letter apostrophe

                        Even here in the forum I was not able to write any form of closing apostrophe. I did a workaround and wrote this text in BB-Edit, copied it and pasted it here to, this worked.

                         

                        On Mac and Windows I set my apostrophes in the preferences for the German languages, I prefer to use »…«, because it is easier to recognize if there is something going wrong.

                        When I am typing on the Mac I use always the shortcuts (in German keyboard they are on a different place than on the US keyboard.) On windows I use the preferences and for the missing apostrophe the alt+numeric keyboard.

                        • 9. Re: wrong apostroph (German)
                          >Jens Neckermann Level 1

                          That's indeed a very true sentence: "Adobe is not

                          doing a good job with German apostrophes". Though

                          the German market should be important for Adobe.

                          And the problem is: You can see - in the last few

                          years - more and more design subjects with the

                          wrong apostroph. Mostly young layouters don't know

                          much about typography but trust implicitly Adobe's

                          InDesign. Adobe should be ashamed. The only

                          solution I know and use: Pressing Alt and typing

                          0146 on the numeric keyoard.

                          Da mein Englisch bestimmt nicht das beste ist,

                          nochmal meine Meinung auf Deutsch: Es ist in

                          meinen Augen eine Schande, dass Adobe den

                          deutschen Markt so vernachlässigt. Selbst wenn man

                          mit Guillemets arbeitet, muss ein normaler

                          Apostroph ("Hochkomma") möglich sein. Aber

                          InDesign kennt ja (in den Wörterbucheinstellungen

                          für Anführungszeichen) noch nicht einmal die im

                          Deutschen korrekten einfachen Guillemets (vorn ›

                          und am Ende ‹). Die deutsche Version von InDesign

                          kennt nur die französischen einfachen Guillemets -

                          das ist eigentlich eine Peinlichkeit! - Oder

                          Ignoranz?

                           

                          Jens Neckermann

                             

                           

                          "Willi Adelberger" <forums_noreply@adobe.com>

                          schrieb:

                          wrong apostroph (German)

                          created by Willi Adelberger in InDesign - View the

                          full discussion

                           

                           

                          Sandy, the problem is, the missing apostrophe is a

                          different one than the quoting apostrophe in

                          German.

                          In German for spelling we can use »…« (in Germany

                          and Austria toward the text, in Switzerland away

                          from the text as it is written in France) or „…“

                          (look like small 99 down and 66 up) for double

                          quotes and ›…‹ or ,…‘ for single quotes.

                          The missing letter apostrophe is ’, which looks

                          like 9 up.

                          Adobe is not doing a good job with German

                          apostrophes, in Find & Replace it confuses all

                          kind of single apostrophes and comma and missing

                          letter apostrophe

                          Even here in the forum I was not able to write any

                          form of closing apostrophe. I did a workaround and

                          wrote this text in BB-Edit, copied it and pasted

                          it here to, this worked.

                           

                          On Mac and Windows I set my apostrophes in the

                          preferences for the German languages, I prefer to

                          use »…«, because it is easier to recognize if

                          there is something going wrong.

                          When I am typing on the Mac I use always the

                          shortcuts (in German keyboard they are on a

                          different place than on the US keyboard.) On

                          windows I use the preferences and for the missing

                          apostrophe the alt+numeric keyboard.

                          Please note that the Adobe Forums do not accept

                          email attachments. If you want to embed a screen

                          image in your message please visit the thread in

                          the forum to embed the image at

                          https://forums.adobe.com/message/6484681#6484681

                          Replies to this message go to everyone subscribed

                          to this thread, not directly to the person who

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                          .

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                          Start a new discussion in InDesign by email or at

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                          • 10. Re: wrong apostroph (German)
                            Sandee Cohen Adobe Community Professional

                            Willi,

                             

                            As I said, I am NOT an expert in German typography, but I would like to see examples, screen shots, of what you are talking about.

                             

                            I can't find any source that makes the single apostrophe different from a single closing quote.

                            • 11. Re: wrong apostroph (German)
                              Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                              Hi Sandy,

                              I scanned some tables from the Book "Mut zur Typogrophie", from Jürgen Gulbins and Christine Kahrmann, ISBN 3-540-67541-8, 8th Edition, 2000, page 340 and 347:

                               

                              Here the apostrophe:

                              apostrophe1.png

                              apostrophe1a.png

                              Direct speech in different languages

                              German (Germany and Austria) is marked, below is Swiss German (Schweiz). (The side text give information on space between text and apostrophe.)

                              apostrophe2.png

                              apostrophe2a.png

                              Apostrophe for missing letters inside of words and on beginning of words:

                              apostrophe3.png

                              apostrophe3a.png

                              apostrophe3b.png

                              apostrophe3c.png

                              • 12. Re: wrong apostroph (German)
                                Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                @Jens – hm, yes. On Windows the workaround is typing Alt + 0146.
                                I've seen at lot of wrong typographic apostrophes provided by authors these days…


                                Also "Deppen-Apostrophe" (an apostroph is used where no apostroph must be used). But this is a totally different issue ;-)

                                 

                                Uwe

                                 

                                PS. The ironic thing is, that the glyph called "APOSTROPHE" at Unicode Point 0027 is not the right glyph for an apostrophe in most typefaces available. Or better put: a lot of people feel that it's not usable from an aesthetic point of view.

                                 

                                Times New RomanRightSingleQuotationMark-vs-Apostrophe.png

                                Utopia

                                Here, I think, it's better using the APOSTROPHE Unicode 0027 than the RIGHT SINGLE QUOTATION MARK.

                                 

                                UtopiaExample-Apostrophe.png

                                But this debate is fought elsewhere in more typographic oriented forums.

                                • 13. Re: wrong apostroph (German)
                                  Sandee Cohen Adobe Community Professional

                                  Wili,

                                   

                                  The steps I gave in changing in Dictionary Preferences do change the totally wrong left single quote to a right single quote. For Minion Pro that is:

                                  German right quote.png

                                  I believe this is the "nine" that you referred to, not the "six".

                                   

                                  I also looked in Minion Pro for a Unicode 0027 apostrophe, but that was not suitable.

                                   

                                  So what I would like to know is what character, for Minion Pro, would be more correct?

                                  • 14. Re: Re: wrong apostroph (German)
                                    Laubender Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    @Sandee – definitely the "right?" choice ;-)

                                    That's the "Upper 9" example.

                                     

                                    Uwe

                                    • 15. Re: Re: wrong apostroph (German)
                                      Sandee Cohen Adobe Community Professional

                                      OK, just to let you know, the original instructions I gave for setting the Dictionary preferences changes that single left quote into a single right quote.

                                       

                                      It may not be the perfect typographic answer, but it does fix the original request.