12 Replies Latest reply on Jul 12, 2014 8:11 PM by MyPetSquirrel

    How do I correct a Red shift when creating PDF proof sheets from Lightroom

    MyPetSquirrel

      Hi, I am using Adobe Lightroom 5.3 64-bit and use it to produce proof sheets of my work.  These proof sheets I then "Print" with CutePDF to PDF files.  When I then view the PDF file, the colors of all the images have red shifted.Untitled.png

      The image on the left is what I see in Lightroom, and the image on the right is the resulting PDF in Adobe Reader XI.  This is a single screenshot with no editing.

      If I open the PDF in Photoshop, it looks red shifted too, so maybe it is a color profile within Lightroom that is the issue?

       

      I work on a PC:

      Core i7-3770K 3.50GHz

      16GB RAM

      GeForce GTX 650 Ti Boost

      SSD


      I have heard that it might be a monitor color profile setting within each program, but I have yet to find a setting for this.

      What can I do to correct this?

        • 2. Re: How do I correct a Red shift when creating PDF proof sheets from Lightroom
          Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          How do you do your pdf generation? You say CutePDF. Is that some sort of windows printer driver that generates pdfs? If so, make sure you set Lightroom to output sRGB images from the print panel. This is accomplished by in the color management tab clicking on the profile popup, selecting other, selecting "include display profiles" and enabling "sRGB IEC61966-2.1" as a possible profile. If you don't see any sRGB profile, you might have to install one yourself. The easiest place to find one is here (use the v2 profile) but usually its there. This trick will make Lightroom output images in sRGB instead of prophotoRGB or adobeRGB (draft mode printing). If you use a pdf generation program (i.e. something else than acrobat or Apple's built-in library) or a pdf viewer that ignores profiles, you will get color shifts if you don't explicitly use sRGB. There might be a setting within CutePDF that automatically translates images to sRGB but I don't know the program.

           

          Lastly, how do you calibrate your display? If you are looking for correct color, you have to use a hardware calibrator. Its possible that your issue here is due to a bad monitor profile. Lastly, if you are using a wide gamut monitor and a pdf viewer that doesn't color manage, you might never get correct color in the display of pdfs. So also watch out for that.

          • 3. Re: How do I correct a Red shift when creating PDF proof sheets from Lightroom
            MyPetSquirrel Level 1

            Yes, I generate my PDFs from within lightroom with CutePDF.  and Yes, it is essentially a printer driver that outputs to a PDF file.  It is the one recommended to me by several teachers at my university in both Computer and Art departments.

            CutePDF - Convert to PDF for free, Free PDF Utilities, Save PDF Forms, Edit PDF easily.

             

            I had thought that AdobeRGB was the one best to use with all Adobe products, but I guess not.  I changed the output to SRGB and lightroom told me "The sRGB color space cannot encompass the full range of colors available within Lightroom."  - same with Adobe RGB - the only one it likes is the ProPhoto RGB. 

             

            Thoughts?

             

            For monitor calibration, I did the basic calibration for light and dark, and Gamma correction, but lack the hardware for a full color calibration.  However, since both images above are displayed on the same monitor, at the same time, the hardware profile would corrupt both at the same time, not just one.

             

            UNLESS:  I have heard that Adobe programs can pull color profiles from the monitor, and use that to try to color correct what is displayed.  IF Lightroom is choosing one profile, and Reader is choosing another, that would explain it.  Hence my original question.  How do I check this and fix it?

            • 4. Re: How do I correct a Red shift when creating PDF proof sheets from Lightroom
              Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              >It is the one recommended to me by several teachers at my university in both Computer and Art departments.

              Looks nice because it is free but my guess is that it doesn't respect color management and just dumps the images into the pdf. This is not a problem with most programs as they generally standardize on sRGB and you wouldn't notice much difference.


              > I had thought that AdobeRGB was the one best to use with all Adobe products, but I guess not.  I changed the output to SRGB and lightroom told me "The sRGB color space cannot encompass the full range of colors available within Lightroom."  - same with Adobe RGB - the only one it likes is the ProPhoto RGB.

               

              These spaces are just different standards. prophotoRGB is bigger than adobeRGB, which is in turn bigger than sRGB. Most monitors are around sRGB and generally that is the space to choose for output to the web or to pdfs if they are going to be viewed in non-color managed environments. The warning in Lightroom is correct but you have to realize that you couldn't see those colors on your monitor in general anyways, so the point is quite moot. If you output to print on modern inkjet printers you should generally do better spaces or use the profile for the printer but you have to really know what you are doing. Apart from such high quality printing, sRGB is almost always your best bet to get the closest reproduction to what you see. This is simply because so few people know how to color manage and so few software packages (on windows at least) color manage. Also, be aware that very few images actually contain much color outside of sRGB. Typically those are the colors of flowers, sunset/sunrise clouds, extremely bright colorful clothing and such. But most snapshots will not have anything outside of sRGB in them. So in general this is a academic issue. Sure, adobeRGB and prophotoRGB are wider spaces that can represent more colors, but you have to be sure that where the images are viewed, the viewing environment is fully color managed.

               

              >For monitor calibration, I did the basic calibration for light and dark, and Gamma correction, but lack the hardware for a full color calibration.  However, since both images above are displayed on the same monitor, at the same time, the hardware profile would corrupt both at the same time, not just one.


              There are two parts to monitor calibration. One is the gamma, black point and white point corrections which are implemented on the video card by a simple tone curve that gets applied to everything displayed. This applies to all applications. The second part is a gamut correction. This corrects for the actual red green and blue colors your display shows. This has to be done by software and can generally not be done by the video card. Windows has a color profile associated with every monitor that is attached and it will tell applications that want to color correct -> "here it is, do with it what you want". If your software is color managed (such as Lightroom), it will first translate the R,G,B numbers in the file to R,G,B numbers suitable to get the color to display on the screen before sending to the video card. Non-color managed apps do not do this. It is important to realize that by default many pdf reader apps do NOT color manage.  Adobe reader does, but only if the pdf actually has the images tagged. If CutePDF does not tag the images, you will get non-color managed images. So since most monitors (I do not know about yours, what is your monitor kind and type?) are close to sRGB, your best bet is to output sRGB to the pdf conversion step. This should result in the least color shift.

               

              You should check what color profile windows has associated with your monitor. You can do this by doing properties (right-click contextual menu) on your desktop background and going for the color management tab. If you do NOT hardware calibrate, you are generally best of with nothing showing there. This will make windows assume that the monitor is perfectly sRGB. The problem is that many monitor manufacturers ship really bad profiles in their windows drivers that actually make the problem worse. Dell and HP are the worst in this respect but no manufacturer ships really good profiles. Apple is the exception to this rule but even there I recommend people calibrate their displays.

               

              If you are serious about color, I highly recommend you hardware calibrate your monitor. Even the cheaper calibrators from X-rite, Spyder, etc. are just fine. You can even rent one from places like lensrentals.com if you don't want to spend ~$100 for one of these. It is useful to own one as they ensure consistent color output. Just the basic gamma correction really does not get you there unfortunately and monitors tend to shift subtly over time.

               

              If you want to learn more about color management. Here are some good resources:

              Jeffrey Friedl's Blog » Digital-Image Color Spaces, Page 1: Introduction

              WEB BROWSER COLOR MANAGEMENT Tutorial - Test Page FireFox Safari Chrome Internet Explorer IE 10- FILES have embedded ICC…

              • 5. Re: How do I correct a Red shift when creating PDF proof sheets from Lightroom
                JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                AdobeRGB isn't necessarily "the best" to use with Adobe products. It is a color space to be used when/if you know why you are using it. For PDF creation, or web sharing, or sending to a lab to be printed, you are usually going to get better results from using sRGB.

                • 6. Re: How do I correct a Red shift when creating PDF proof sheets from Lightroom
                  MyPetSquirrel Level 1

                  Lot of good information there. 

                   

                  my monitor is a Dell UltraSharp™ U3011 76 cm (30”) monitor with PremierColor details | Dell  -  it says

                  - The U3011 monitor arrives factory-tuned to AdobeRGB and sRGB modes,

                  - 117 percent (CIE 1976) color gamut with excellent AdobeRGB and sRGB coverage for rich, lifelike visuals

                  - The U3011 is compatible with 100 percent sRGB and 99 percent AdobeRGB standards


                  I'm on windows 7 so I type "Color" in the control panel to find color settings.  Here are my color profile options:

                  color profile.png

                  (side note, I am having trouble with my windows print spooler service, if it is enabled, Lightroom crashes on load, and without it, it won't print/export - working on this)

                   

                   

                  Found a great Adobe Lightroom color gamut explanation page here:  Lightroom Help | Color management

                  it says that Lightroom uses AdobeRGB as default.  Should I attempt to change this, or leave it as is and convert to sRGB when I print/export?

                  • 7. Re: How do I correct a Red shift when creating PDF proof sheets from Lightroom
                    Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    >my monitor is a Dell UltraSharp™ U3011 76 cm (30”) monitor with PremierColor details | Dell  -  it says


                    Aha, that is indeed a wide gamut monitor. With one of these, you really should be calibrating it using hardware. Also be aware that many Windows applications such as Internet Explorer will NEVER show the correct colors except when you put the monitor in sRGB mode which kind of defeats the purpose of a wide gamut monitor. This is likely the cause of your issues. You will probably never get to see correct color in your pdf viewing apps because of it. Lightroom will show correct color if you calibrate. In the screenshot i noticed you had set adobeRGB as the default. It should probably be the DELL supplied profile instead but it probably won't make much difference. I am curious where the sRGB hardware calibrated profile came from.


                    Bottomline is that you got a wide gamut monitor (i.e. not close to sRGB but close to adobeRGB in native gamut. This makes that you really have to know what you are doing (i.e. lots of software will never show you correct color no matter what you do) and you probably should be using a hardware calibration tool.

                     

                    >it says that Lightroom uses AdobeRGB as default

                     

                    It doesn't. it uses prophotoRGB by default. It only uses adobeRGB in the print panel when you select draft mode. What happens when you print normally is that the images get rendered from their originals (usually raw files) at the size and resolution you select into prophotoRGB space (when you select managed by printer), or into the profile you select in the color management panel. This data is then sent to the printer driver.

                     

                    >Should I attempt to change this, or leave it as is and convert to sRGB when I print/export?

                     

                    You can't change this. Simply select sRGB in the color management tab in the print panel. You will probably still see color shifts on your monitor if you use cutePDF for printing to pdf. The only remedy for that would be to use acrobat for printing or perhaps the pro version of cutePDF respects color profiles attached to images. It really depends on what you use the pdfs for. If they are only for your personal use on this specific monitor, you might get away with selecting adobeRGB in the print panel color management tab. If you send the pdf to other people, make sure to select sRGB for everything, both print to pdf and export from the normal export panel.

                    • 8. Re: How do I correct a Red shift when creating PDF proof sheets from Lightroom
                      MyPetSquirrel Level 1

                      Oh but it does ... well, say that anyway.... 

                      Look about half way down under the title "How Lightroom manages color" - it says:

                       

                      "Lightroom primarily uses the Adobe RGB color space to display colors. The Adobe RGB gamut includes most of the colors that digital cameras can capture as well as some printable colors (cyans and blues, in particular) that can’t be defined using the smaller, web-friendly sRGB color space."

                       

                       

                      Anyway, it seems my printer troubles were directly related to this issue.  In order to fix my print spooler I had to delete all the files in my C:\Windows\System32\spool\drivers and C:\Windows\System32\spool\PRINTERS folders.  (after backing them up just in case) - Which included all my color profiles.  I downloaded the color profile you suggested and applied it to ALL places I could.  Monitors (I have 3) and Printers (including my HP printer and CutePDF).  This effectively appears to have eliminated my print spooler issue and set up my color profile settings at the same time.  I still have a bit more work to do, as part of my settings don't have any ... settings ... to choose from yet, but I'm getting there.  Somehow out of nowhere, an Adobe RGB Gamma 2.2 profile appeared too.  I know not where from.

                       

                      Untitled.png

                       

                      Issue still persists, but it maybe doesn't look as bad?  What do you think?  (compare this image with the one in the first post.)  Per your directions in that last bit, I found the color settings you were talking about - I had been printing in "draft" mode.  Maybe that had something to do with it too.  The PDFs are sent to my Photography teacher as an easy way to proof dozens of photos by email.  He doesn't seem to care/notice the issue.

                       

                      I have plans on getting a color calibration device at the end of the summer (when I can afford it).  Until then, maybe I will just have to deal with it.

                      • 9. Re: How do I correct a Red shift when creating PDF proof sheets from Lightroom
                        Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        >"Lightroom primarily uses the Adobe RGB color space to display colors. The Adobe RGB gamut includes most of the colors that digital cameras can capture as well as some printable colors (cyans and blues, in particular) that can’t be defined using the smaller, web-friendly sRGB color space."


                        Wow. That is amazingly carelessly worded. I see what they mean but it is quite incorrect. Lightroom does not use adobeRGB to display colors. What they mean is that by default preview copies of the images are stored in adobeRGB jpeg files. When those are displayed in Library, Book, Slideshow, Print preview, etc., they get converted to the monitor profile for displaying. In the Develop module, Lightroom uses a special, prophotoRGB derived linear color space called MelissaRGB, and converts from that to display profile. Also, when you print in draft mode, Lightroom takes the adobeRGB preview jpegs and sends those instead of rendering from the raw files to speed up the print.

                         

                        >Anyway, it seems my printer troubles were directly related to this issue.  In order to fix my print spooler I had to delete all the files in my C:\Windows\System32\spool\drivers and C:\Windows\System32\spool\PRINTERS folders.  (after backing them up just in case) - Which included all my color profiles.  I downloaded the color profile you suggested and applied it to ALL places I could.  Monitors (I have 3) and Printers (including my HP printer and CutePDF).  This effectively appears to have eliminated my print spooler issue and set up my color profile settings at the same time.  I still have a bit more work to do, as part of my settings don't have any ... settings ... to choose from yet, but I'm getting there.  Somehow out of nowhere, an Adobe RGB Gamma 2.2 profile appeared too.  I know not where from.

                         

                        I would not trust any color on any display this way. I was not aware that you had multiple monitors. This complicates the issue even more. Many software, even when color managed has no clue about multiple monitors and often uses the wrong profile for the main monitor for display on every monitor. Lightroom knows how to do this but a lot of other software doesn't. You also should probably not assign sRGB to your DELL monitor as it is a wide gamut display. Doing this will make everything display way over saturated on that monitor. I'd really recommend getting a display calibrator that supports multiple monitors and not trusting software that doesn't explicitly support multiple monitor color management (Lightroom and Photoshop do).

                        • 10. Re: How do I correct a Red shift when creating PDF proof sheets from Lightroom
                          MyPetSquirrel Level 1

                          Yeah, it is worded weird.  I understand what it meant though, but only after I re-read it after your first comment.

                           

                          The 2 other monitors are just basic pnp monitors set up to the sides for additional reference space - color correction on them is not important at all. 

                           

                          I have the Dell in the middle, 2560 x 1600 - the 2 side ones are 22" monitors 1680x1050 turned sideways giving me an effective desktop of 4660x1600.  They are most definately not wide gammut and I don't care what it looks like.  I use Lightroom in the middle, the one on the left is the 2nd monitor feature for essentially larger thumbnails to track down hard to see images, and I use the one on the right for the Exlporer window where I can move files around prior to import and/or finding previously completed files to open in the center monitor.  Monitors are designed for side to side viewing angles, and not so much top to bottom.  by turning them sideways, I have effectively eliminated good viewing angles.  they kind of look washed out all the time anyway.  Perfectly acceptable for reference material, but any serious work goes on in the middle.

                           

                          So, you recommend replacing the Dell U3011 color profile, D65 for the center monitor, and leaving the sRGB on the other 2?  Or should I use the AdobeRGB for the middle?  If you look at the image of my profiles, there is also a (I'm guessing) factory calibrated sRGB profile that came with the monitor too.  3 interesting chocies I'd say.

                          • 11. Re: How do I correct a Red shift when creating PDF proof sheets from Lightroom
                            Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            >So, you recommend replacing the Dell U3011 color profile, D65 for the center monitor, and leaving the sRGB on the other 2?  Or should I use the AdobeRGB for the middle?  If you look at the image of my profiles, there is also a (I'm guessing) factory calibrated sRGB profile that came with the monitor too.  3 interesting chocies I'd say.

                             

                            If you don't want to get a hardware calibrator, it depends on whether you have set the Dell up in sRGB mode (probably in one of the on screen menus on the monitor). If not, use the Dell U3011 profile or plain adobeRGB. If set up to sRGB mode, use the sRGB profile. Set the other monitors up to sRGB (delete all profiles from the monitors color settings). Also make sure to follow the poor-man's calibration advice Adobe gives at the end of "calibrate your monitor" on the page you link to. That will get you within the ball park. These are suboptimal solutions and it's best to calibrate them all seperately using hardware though but I can understand if you are reluctant to do that as it is another >$100 investment. If you are a pro or serious amateur photographer, it is very much a worthwhile (probably necessary!) investment in my opinion.

                            • 12. Re: How do I correct a Red shift when creating PDF proof sheets from Lightroom
                              MyPetSquirrel Level 1

                              Oh, I WANT a hardware calibrator, but can't afford one for a bit. 

                               

                              Thanks for all your help, it's a lot clearer for me now.  I am going to mark this as solved, hopefully it will help someone else too.