21 Replies Latest reply on Jul 12, 2014 12:19 PM by aefilter

    AE 2014 - ray trace 3D looks fine in edit, doesn't render depth

    TLWestgate

      I am editing some 3D text and have my comp settings to use the ray trace engine. All looks good as I edit, but when I render the text is flat 2D. Attached are samples. What's going on?

       

      dream3d.jpg

      This is what I see when editing in the comp window.

       

       

      dreamflat.jpg

      This is how it renders out. I've tried different formats all thru Media Encoder to no avail.

       

      One more data point - if I use Save Frame As it renders correctly with the 3D depth.

        • 1. Re: AE 2014 - ray trace 3D looks fine in edit, doesn't render depth
          Szalam Adobe Community Professional & MVP

          Try rendering into an intermediate codec with the After Effects render queue.

          Later, you can take that into the Adobe Media Encoder to create your final deliverable.

          • 2. Re: AE 2014 - ray trace 3D looks fine in edit, doesn't render depth
            Szalam Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            As a side note, why are you using the ray-traced renderer to create 3d in the new version of AE? You have access to a much more powerful (and faster-rendering) option.

            • 3. Re: AE 2014 - ray trace 3D looks fine in edit, doesn't render depth
              Rick Gerard Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              It is impossible to know why this is happening because we know nothing about your composition settings, layer settings, render settings or much of anything else about the project. It could be anything from Collapse transformations on a nested comp to a bunch of other workflow problems.

              • 4. Re: AE 2014 - ray trace 3D looks fine in edit, doesn't render depth
                TLWestgate Level 1

                I didn't think all those settings should matter. If I can see the 3D depth in the comp window and it exports a single frame correctly, then shouldn't it export a video in the same manner? I can make the project file available if you're interested in poking around in it.

                • 5. Re: AE 2014 - ray trace 3D looks fine in edit, doesn't render depth
                  Rick Gerard Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  Did you try purging cache? Settings can and do matter. If you want to provide the project, even without footage, I'll take a look. I forgot to ask, have you ever successfully rendered extruded text in a project before? If the answer is yes, what is different about this project?

                  • 6. Re: AE 2014 - ray trace 3D looks fine in edit, doesn't render depth
                    TLWestgate Level 1

                    I have done this previously. I don't recall doing anything different. But I'm at a new gig and working on a Mac instead of my usual PC, so there must be something awry. Here's a link to the collected files if you want to poke around.

                     

                    rendererror.zip - Box

                    • 7. Re: AE 2014 - ray trace 3D looks fine in edit, doesn't render depth
                      bogiesan Level 4

                      TLWestgate wrote:

                      I didn't think all those settings should matter. If I can see the 3D depth in the comp window and it exports a single frame correctly, then shouldn't it export a video in the same manner? I can make the project file available if you're interested in poking around in it.

                      Still image output and video output use wildly different settings and codec processing. If you're using presets, the switches for your 3D effects may be layers deep and not properly set. So, yes, the information can be of great help for the likes of Gerard and Szalam.

                       

                      Me, I just make a WAG.

                      • 8. Re: AE 2014 - ray trace 3D looks fine in edit, doesn't render depth
                        Rick Gerard Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        Opened the project and added the main comp to the render cue choosing the default Lossless - rendered - perfect

                         

                        Try purging all caches and disk cache and do the same thing. Let me know if it does not work.

                        • 9. Re: AE 2014 - ray trace 3D looks fine in edit, doesn't render depth
                          TLWestgate Level 1

                          Rendering lossless straight out of AE works, but I need to render out an MP4. I can only do that in AME now. And it seems no matter what settings I choose in AME, it never renders 3D depth.

                          • 10. Re: AE 2014 - ray trace 3D looks fine in edit, doesn't render depth
                            bogiesan Level 4

                            TLWestgate wrote:

                            Rendering lossless straight out of AE works, but I need to render out an MP4. I can only do that in AME now. And it seems no matter what settings I choose in AME, it never renders 3D depth.

                            Render out of AE in any format that produces the effects you want.

                            Take that movie to AME for transcoding to MP4.

                            You may think of this as wasted steps but there are valid reasons for doing it this way, the most important of which at the moment is that AE directly to MP4 via AME will not produce your effects as desired.

                            • 11. Re: AE 2014 - ray trace 3D looks fine in edit, doesn't render depth
                              TLWestgate Level 1

                              I guess we'll just have to chalk this up to programmers dictating design decisions instead of those using the product. Bad move, Adobe. Now we'll have to change our workflow, get more server space, etc.

                              • 12. Re: AE 2014 - ray trace 3D looks fine in edit, doesn't render depth
                                Dave LaRonde Level 6

                                TLWestgate wrote:

                                 

                                I guess we'll just have to chalk this up to programmers dictating design decisions instead of those using the product. Bad move, Adobe. Now we'll have to change our workflow, get more server space, etc.

                                In your case, it may be a blessing in disguise.  Now you'll have a lossless archival copy from which you can compress other versions for delivery.  Re-purposing one's work for delivery to other media happens more & more these days.  And it's easy to set up a batch transcode of the same lossless master file to different dimensions,  media containers & codecs.

                                 

                                I'd hate to think that a lossy mp4 was the only thing I had to show for all my work.

                                • 13. Re: AE 2014 - ray trace 3D looks fine in edit, doesn't render depth
                                  TLWestgate Level 1

                                  After finalization, I agree with you. A nice pristine archival copy. However, we routinely go thru a dozen or so revisions (too many decision makers, IMHO) before finishing a project. That's a lot of wasted space and render time when I could be directly outputting what I want. It's really bad workflow.

                                  • 14. Re: AE 2014 - ray trace 3D looks fine in edit, doesn't render depth
                                    bogiesan Level 4

                                    TLWestgate wrote:

                                    I guess we'll just have to chalk this up to programmers dictating design decisions instead of those using the product. Bad move, Adobe. Now we'll have to change our workflow, get more server space, etc.

                                    That's not it at all. As LaRonde has tried to point out, there are very good reasons why this is a solid and valid workflow. Not everyone agrees, often because they think transcoding directly out of AE, instead of rendering (which is a different operation), is an attractive shortcut. It is not in most situations. Yours, for instance. MP4, for whatever reason, simply does not support the 3D effects you want displayed. If you understood the difference between rendering and transcoding we would not be having this conversation; the workflow would have been automatic, as it is for me. And that 's because, after two decades of working with After Effects, I have come to realize every shortcut I have ever attempted results in wasting many more hours than I could ever have possibly saved.

                                     

                                    But there are numerous threads expressing this and similar dissatisfaction with Adobe's After Effects program design decisions, especially the separation between AE's transcoding abilities and those of Media Encoder. We encourage you to take a few moments to add your frustration and your voice to those.

                                    • 15. Re: AE 2014 - ray trace 3D looks fine in edit, doesn't render depth
                                      TLWestgate Level 1

                                      Put your condescension aside for a moment, please. I do know the difference. AE used to be able to export MP4s, which is what I need a vast majority of the time. Filmmakers don't print films and watch them on the big screen for every iteration. That's a finalizing process after all the decisions are made. So whether you want to spit an MP4 out of AE or you prefer to render then transcode should be irrelevant to the programmer. Both options should be available. The way I'm used to (prior to this version of AE) saved a lot of time and hard drive space. But now I'm being forced to do it someone else's way. I've only worked with AE for 9 years, not 2 decades, but shortcuts still work for me. I don't know what you were doing wrong all those years.

                                       

                                      What I would love to know is why MP4s can't "see" the 3D effect straight out of AME, but you can render then transcode to MP4 with AME and it works fine. If you can ultimately get what you want in an MP4 wrapper, why all the extra unnecessary steps?

                                      • 16. Re: AE 2014 - ray trace 3D looks fine in edit, doesn't render depth
                                        Dave LaRonde Level 6

                                        Here's another thought: you can render out of AE into a folder designated in AME as a watch folder.  AME then proceeds to transcode automatically... and rather speedily, I would imagine.  While you're onto other tasks.

                                         

                                        So all in all, I don't think it's as much of a workflow-killer as you first imagined.

                                        • 17. Re: AE 2014 - ray trace 3D looks fine in edit, doesn't render depth
                                          Rick Gerard Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                          I'm sorry that I missed that you were using AME CC 14. I would have suggested a better workflow. I may have also explored the differences between AME CC and AME CC 14. If you open the Preferences in AME 2014 you will discover that the Mercury Playback Engine in the Video Rendering section. There is no mention of this option in the help files.

                                           

                                          The Mercury Playback Engine GPU Acdeleration (OpenCL) does not support Ray-Traced rendering so the default setting would give the expected results. The option to select a Cuda rendering option from the list gives the impression that CUDA accelerated effects would render. Software Only suggests that the GPU would no be used to accelerate rendering.

                                          amePrefs.jpg

                                          I've filed a bug on this. It's a bug if CUDA is in the list and it is not going to work. It's a bug if Software Only is in the list and software rendering worked in AME CC. It's also a bug, at least a bug in the documentation, if there is no warning given that Adobe Media Encoder will no longer support any Ray-traced rendering features. I would suggest you also file a bug on this.

                                           

                                          In AME CC there was no such option and since the Cuda supported rendering of Ray-traced comps is only supported inside After Effects, software or CPU rendering of ray-traced comps was implemented in AME CC. Software rendering is so slow that no one I knew chose AME for rendering Ray Traced comps. The DI (digital intermediate) was used to take advantage of the GPU. To tell you the truth, 90% of my work does not benefit from MP rendering (also not supported in AME) or Ray-traced rendering. I run the AtomKraft rendering engine instead of RayTraced rendering in CC if I want to extrude text or do other quick 3D things inside AE. The AtomKraft rendering plug-in has not yet been updated to run in CC 14. I'm getting a bit off track here. What I wanted to say is that whenever I have a project that benefits directly from rendering directly inside After Effects I will render a DI. For all other work I use the AME. For my client proofs I use Vimeo Presets and upload directly to private vimeo pages for clients. For all Final renders I render an archival DI, usually with AME, then render my deliverables from AME using the DI.

                                          • 18. Re: AE 2014 - ray trace 3D looks fine in edit, doesn't render depth
                                            Dave LaRonde Level 6

                                            Well, you're doing ray-tracing.  Adobe Media Encoder can't use the GPU for ray-tracing.  AE can.

                                            I'm sure it makes sense to the folks at Adobe why that's so, but to few other people.

                                            • 19. Re: AE 2014 - ray trace 3D looks fine in edit, doesn't render depth
                                              TLWestgate Level 1

                                              Interesting data point. Importing the AE project into Premiere will allow you to render straight to MP4 perfectly.

                                              • 20. Re: AE 2014 - ray trace 3D looks fine in edit, doesn't render depth
                                                bogiesan Level 4

                                                TLWestgate wrote:

                                                Put your condescension aside for a moment, please. I do know the difference. AE used to be able to export MP4s, which is what I need a vast majority of the time. Filmmakers don't print films and watch them on the big screen for every iteration. That's a finalizing process after all the decisions are made. So whether you want to spit an MP4 out of AE or you prefer to render then transcode should be irrelevant to the programmer. Both options should be available. The way I'm used to (prior to this version of AE) saved a lot of time and hard drive space. But now I'm being forced to do it someone else's way. I've only worked with AE for 9 years, not 2 decades, but shortcuts still work for me. I don't know what you were doing wrong all those years.

                                                What I would love to know is why MP4s can't "see" the 3D effect straight out of AME, but you can render then transcode to MP4 with AME and it works fine. If you can ultimately get what you want in an MP4 wrapper, why all the extra unnecessary steps?

                                                I'm not condescending to you, I don't know you from a jar of Vic's nor can I read between the lines of your short posts, inferring what I wish. You seemed to need a solution not commiseration. I explained myself and the way the thing works as if you didn't know any better because we see that level of newbie ignorance dozens of times a day. Sorry to have ruffled your pride. I don't run Premiere yet but I appreciate your data point. Thanks for posting that.

                                                • 21. Re: AE 2014 - ray trace 3D looks fine in edit, doesn't render depth
                                                  aefilter Level 1

                                                  Some ask Todd last year:

                                                   

                                                  CreativeCOW

                                                  > Is there a way for AME to invoke the GPU for raytraced AE projects?

                                                   

                                                  No tested and supported way, no. (At least one brave soul has experimented with an untested and unsupported way.)

                                                   

                                                  My workflow for such things is to render and export a master file out of After Effects that goes into a watch folder. Then AME picks it up from the watch folder automatically and creates all of my delivery files. That uses After Effects for what it's good at and AME for what it's good at.