1 2 Previous Next 48 Replies Latest reply on Aug 26, 2016 9:33 AM by thedigitaldog

    Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner

    MichaelDundkley Level 1

      I am shocked that I can't find out this information in the Adobe manual or specs or anywhere on their web site.

        • 1. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
          Ian Lyons MVP & Adobe Community Professional

          Lightroom supports 8-bit per channel (24 bit colour) and 16 bit per channel (48 bit colour). However, it has no support for scanning. Therefore, you'll need to scan your images using the softaware provided with the scanner or a third party alternative then import the images into Lightroom.

           


          • 3. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
            NY2LA Level 1

            I've been trying to figure this out myself. This article about ProPhoto (though not by that name) says in its Conclusions:



             

            An extended dynamic range version of RIMM RGB, known as ERIMM RGB, also has been defined. This color encoding is particularly well suited for encoding images from high-dynamic-range image sources such as color negative film. The extensive dynamic range of ERIMM RGB requires a minimum data precision of 12-bits/channel.

             

            Reference Input/Output Medium Metric RGB Color Encodings (RIMM/ROMM RGB)

            by Kevin E. Spaulding, Geoffrey J. Woolfe and Edward J. Giorgianni

            Eastman Kodak Company

            Rochester, New York, U.S.A.

             

            http://www.photo-lovers.org/pdf/color/romm.pdf

             

            I think this means 12 bits are required to pick up the full dynamic range of color negatives (which means 16 bit files in our case). But I think this also means a special encoding scheme (color profile), and software that will work with it, is required. If I understand this correctly (as a lay person), even the standard ProPhoto by itself won't cut it, because it is an 8-bit color space (as far as I know). And I believe we need high dynamic range monitors in order to actually see it.

            • 4. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
              Per Berntsen Adobe Community Professional

              I can't comment on the technicalities of color profiles.

              I do however have some experience with scanning color negatives, and it seems to me that you're making this a lot more complicated than it is.

               

              Color negatives can capture a very high dynamic range, but the negatives themselves are (unlike color slides) low contrast.

              The most important thing is not the color profile you assign to the scan, or the working space you use, but to make sure that you capture all shadow and highlight detail from the scan. You want the histogram for the scanned image to have ample space on both sides, which means no clipped shadows or highlights. It doesn't matter if the image looks flat and awful, you can correct that later.

               

              The way to do this will depend on the scanning software, but the first thing to do is to disable any Auto adjustments.

              If you have problems with shadow and highlight clipping scanning as a negative, try scanning as a positive, which will require inverting the image later. Because of the orange mask, inverting in Lightroom may be problematic. Photoshop is much better suited for this - I often use the Color Negative curves preset on an adjustment layer. This preset will sometimes be spot on, other times quite extensive tweaking of the individual channels is required,

               

              Scanning in 16-bit will be necessary, not because 16-bit has a higher dynamic range (it doesn't), but because the image will need to withstand heavy editing. I usually scan in Adobe RGB if possible, or convert to Adobe RGB in Photoshop.

              You will have more editing headroom in ProPhoto, but even a wide gamut monitor can only reproduce Adobe RGB.

              The develop module in Lightroom uses a variant of ProPhoto as a working space, but the images you import can be in Adobe RGB, or sRGB for that matter. (although I would recommend Adobe RGB)

              • 5. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                NY2LA Level 1

                Hi Per. I think your instructions are excellent. But unlike the original poster, I don't actually scan color negatives myself. I use photo labs to have them scanned, and sometimes I order drum scans. As you may know, many drum scanning services charge per MB. Therefore, I usually order 8 bit scans, and then convert to 16 bit before doing any editing work. And considering ...

                 

                Per Berntsen wrote:

                Scanning in 16-bit will be necessary, not because 16-bit has a higher dynamic range (it doesn't), but because the image will need to withstand heavy editing.

                . . . perhaps it is not necessary to scan in 16-bit. Instead, it is only necessary to convert to 16-bit before doing any editing work. On the other hand, if one is scanning at home and there is no additional cost, one may as well scan in 16-bit from the start.

                 

                Yes, I am making it more complicated than it is, and admittedly, may be even going off topic from the original poster's question. But I standby my suspicion that we may not be really capturing all of the information that is in the film.

                • 6. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                  Per Berntsen Adobe Community Professional

                  Converting an 8-bit file to 16-bit will not add any new information to the file.

                  8-bit files can only have 256 levels (shades of color) per channel, whereas 16-bit can potentially record 65,000 levels per channel, provided that the file was captured as 16-bit. Converting to 8-bit won't add the missing levels.

                   

                  8-bit files would only be good enough if the scanner operator manages to adjust the image to near perfection in the scanning software, so that no or very little editing is required afterwards.

                  Also, color negatives are open to interpretation, and there is no guarantee that you will agree with the scanner operator's interpretation.

                   

                  But I standby my suspicion that we may not be really capturing all of the information that is in the film.

                  Like I've said before, the color profile is not the most important factor in this context. And profiles, including ProPhoto, work with 16-bit files.

                  To capture all the information in the film, you will need to

                  1. Scan in 16-bit

                  2. Make sure that shadows and highlights aren't clipped

                  • 7. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                    Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                    Therefore, I usually order 8 bit scans, and then convert to 16 bit before doing any editing work. And considering ...

                    The beauty of Lightroom is that contrary to Photoshop, you do not have to do any conversion like that. All operations are done in 16-bits even from 8-bit sources so the result is identical as if you had converted them to 16-bits before bringing into Lightroom since converting to 16 bit to 8 bits does not add any new information. This is all part of the nondestructive workflow in Lightroom. Scanning in 16 bits however is essential if you are going to do a lot of heavy editing on your files and if your originals are very high quality from large format negatives. If it is only mild editing or your files are from more standard film stock you should be able to get away with only 8 bits.

                    • 8. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                      NY2LA Level 1

                      Both of you are missing my point. Please see Table 4.3 Sample Scene Luminance Encodings on page 262 of this book. Note the 8-bit RIMM8 RGB color space providing values up to 255, and the 12-bit ERIMM12 RGB color space providing values up to 4095:

                       

                      https://books.google.com/books/about/Digital_Color_Imaging_Handbook.html?id=OxlBqY67rl0C&p rintsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button#v=onepage&q&f=false

                       

                      The A/D chips in a scanner may deliver 12 bits (or more) per color channel, and may provide 16 bit TIFF files in order to utilize the full 12 bits (or more) from the hardware. But it seems to me, even if your entire workflow is 16-bit, you still need a color space with 4096 values in order to preserve that information.

                      • 9. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                        thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                        NY2LA wrote:

                         

                        Both of you are missing my point. Please see Table 4.3 Sample Scene Luminance Encodings on page 262 of this book. Note the 8-bit RIMM8 RGB color space providing values up to 255, and the 12-bit ERIMM12 RGB color space providing values up to 4095:

                         

                        https://books.google.com/books/about/Digital_Color_Imaging_Handbook.html?id=OxlBqY67rl0C&p rintsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button#v=onepage&q&f=false

                         

                        The A/D chips in a scanner may deliver 12 bits (or more) per color channel, and may provide 16 bit TIFF files in order to utilize the full 12 bits (or more) from the hardware. But it seems to me, even if your entire workflow is 16-bit, you still need a color space with 4096 values in order to preserve that information.

                        The point others are making is that LR operates on high bit data which is considered more than 8-bits per color. So 10, 12, 14 bits are treated equally and considered 'high bit' (or what is incorrectly understand by Photoshop users as 16-bits per color*).

                        Next, bits do not equate to color! Yes, we can encode 24-bits of data to define 16.7 million device values. They are not call colors (we can't see anything close to 16.7 million colors). See: http://digitaldog.net/files/ColorNumbersColorGamut.pdf

                         

                        Color spaces are just containers. Without a pixel (which has a certain encoding), they contain no data!

                         

                        If you provide LR with an 8-bit per color document and let it apply it's own edits, this is all done high bit internally but you're not gaining the same advantages (avoiding banding due to rounding errors/data loss) that you would if you feed LR a true high bit document. Just as converting a 8-bit per color document into 16-bits doesn't buy you anything like the original high bit data file.

                         

                        *The high-bit representation in Photoshop has always been "15   1" bits

                        (32767 (which is the total number of values that can be represented by 15

                        bits of precision)   1).  This requires 16 bits of data to represent is

                        called "16 bit".  It is not an arbitrary decision on how to display this

                        data, it is displaying an exact representation of the exact data Photoshop

                        is using, just as 0-255 is displayed for 8 bit files.

                        • 10. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                          NY2LA Level 1

                          thedigitaldog wrote:

                           

                           

                          If you provide LR with an 8-bit per color document and let it apply it's own edits, this is all done high bit internally but you're not gaining the same advantages (avoiding banding due to rounding errors/data loss) that you would if you feed LR a true high bit document. Just as converting a 8-bit per color document into 16-bits doesn't buy you anything like the original high bit data file.

                           

                           

                          My thoughts about this issue comes from here:

                           

                          "Even if your original image was 8-bits per channel, performing all editing in 16-bit mode will nearly eliminate posterization caused by rounding errors."

                           

                          http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/posterization.htm

                          • 11. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                            DdeGannes Level 5

                            The answer to the original poster's query was provided by Ian Lyon's post.

                            To wit the quality of the scanned files would be limited by the scanner and the software used to capture the scanned file. Lightroom is not the limiting factor.

                            • 12. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                              NY2LA Level 1

                              thedigitaldog wrote:

                               

                              The point others are making is that LR operates on high bit data which is considered more than 8-bits per color. So 10, 12, 14 bits are treated equally and considered 'high bit' (or what is incorrectly understand by Photoshop users as 16-bits per color*).

                              Next, bits do not equate to color! Yes, we can encode 24-bits of data to define 16.7 million device values. They are not call colors (we can't see anything close to 16.7 million colors). See: http://digitaldog.net/files/ColorNumbersColorGamut.pdf

                               

                              Color spaces are just containers. Without a pixel (which has a certain encoding), they contain no data!

                               

                               

                              My thoughts about this issue are derived from what is going on in the motion picture industry, and the direction manufacturers of monitors are going. Per Howard Lukk, film director and SMPTE Standards Director, on Home Theater Geeks show number 256:

                               

                              ". . . can take old films and pull more stuff out of them to re-release into this new HDR world."

                               

                              https://twit.tv/shows/home-theater-geeks/episodes/256

                               

                              Although he is referring to motion picture film, why shouldn't this apply to still images shot on film as well?

                              • 13. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                                thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                NY2LA wrote:

                                 

                                thedigitaldog wrote:

                                 

                                 

                                If you provide LR with an 8-bit per color document and let it apply it's own edits, this is all done high bit internally but you're not gaining the same advantages (avoiding banding due to rounding errors/data loss) that you would if you feed LR a true high bit document. Just as converting a 8-bit per color document into 16-bits doesn't buy you anything like the original high bit data file.

                                 

                                 

                                My thoughts about this issue comes from here:

                                 

                                "Even if your original image was 8-bits per channel, performing all editing in 16-bit mode will nearly eliminate posterization caused by rounding errors."

                                 

                                http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/posterization.htm

                                I disagree. That's usually quite a good site for info but I think they failed at this concept. Or let's put it this way; editing on 8-bit per color data converted to 16-bits isn't the same as editing on 16-bit data hight bit from the device itself. There's no free lunch here.

                                • 14. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                                  thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                  NY2LA wrote:

                                   

                                  thedigitaldog wrote:

                                   

                                  The point others are making is that LR operates on high bit data which is considered more than 8-bits per color. So 10, 12, 14 bits are treated equally and considered 'high bit' (or what is incorrectly understand by Photoshop users as 16-bits per color*).

                                  Next, bits do not equate to color! Yes, we can encode 24-bits of data to define 16.7 million device values. They are not call colors (we can't see anything close to 16.7 million colors). See: http://digitaldog.net/files/ColorNumbersColorGamut.pdf

                                   

                                  Color spaces are just containers. Without a pixel (which has a certain encoding), they contain no data!

                                   

                                   

                                  My thoughts about this issue are derived from what is going on in the motion picture industry, and the direction manufacturers of monitors are going. Per Howard Lukk, film director and SMPTE Standards Director, on Home Theater Geeks show number 256:

                                   

                                  ". . . can take old films and pull more stuff out of them to re-release into this new HDR world."

                                   

                                  https://twit.tv/shows/home-theater-geeks/episodes/256

                                   

                                  Although he is referring to motion picture film, why shouldn't this apply to still images shot on film as well?

                                  How's this analogy. I have a piece of film I need to scan that has a very large (for film) Dynamic Range. I scan it on a scanner that has a Dynamic Range of 3.3. and then on a scanner that has a DR of 4.0. The later scanner can 'pull more stuff out of them to re-release into this new HDR world"

                                  • 15. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                                    Conrad C Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    NY2LA wrote:

                                    My thoughts about this issue are derived from what is going on in the motion picture industry, and the direction manufacturers of monitors are going. Per Howard Lukk, film director and SMPTE Standards Director, on Home Theater Geeks show number 256:

                                     

                                    ". . . can take old films and pull more stuff out of them to re-release into this new HDR world."

                                    https://twit.tv/shows/home-theater-geeks/episodes/256

                                    Although he is referring to motion picture film, why shouldn't this apply to still images shot on film as well?

                                    It does apply to both movies and still images, but you'll find that any studio or lab that is scanning movies for improved dynamic range and HDR remastering is never, ever going to scan those at 8 bits/channel and convert up. Their work is only worth doing if they scan at a higher bit depth like 16bpc, edit in that, and then downsample to the final standard such as 10bpc for the UltraHD spec. This point has been made in several episodes of Home Theater Geeks by different guests.

                                     

                                     

                                    NY2LA wrote:

                                     

                                    "Even if your original image was 8-bits per channel, performing all editing in 16-bit mode will nearly eliminate posterization caused by rounding errors."

                                     

                                    http://www.cambridgeincolour.com/tutorials/posterization.htm

                                    That doesn't mean you can avoid scanning at 16bpc. All that means is that you are limiting the damage from scanning at too low of a bit depth for your purposes. If you're paying a lab to scan images because they have really good equipment, you should be getting 16bpc images back to retain the quality of the high-end equipment you paid extra to use.

                                     

                                    Earlier you said "If I understand this correctly (as a lay person), even the standard ProPhoto by itself won't cut it, because it is an 8-bit color space (as far as I know)." No, ProPhoto RGB is not limited that way, partly because a color space is separate from document bit depth. In both the photo and video worlds, it's known that if you are going to move up to wide gamut displays or color spaces like ProPhoto, you need to be working with more than 8 bits per channel. (This has also been discussed frequently on Home Theater Geeks.) In other words, the best practice is that if you are working in ProPhoto, your Photoshop documents should be 16bpc for best results.

                                    • 16. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                                      thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                      It's also very important to note that bit depth and dynamic range are two separate attributes. More bit depth doesn't provide more DR. DR is an attribute of the capture device. IOW, you can have a scanner (or other capture device) that might have a 12 stop range and encode 10-bits per color yet another that has 10 stop range and encode in 12 bits per color.

                                      Here's a visual analogy: DR is the length of a staircase, bit depth the number of steps.

                                       

                                      DynamicRangevsBits.jpg

                                      • 17. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                                        trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        Conrad C wrote:

                                         

                                        Earlier you said "If I understand this correctly (as a lay person), even the standard ProPhoto by itself won't cut it, because it is an 8-bit color space (as far as I know).

                                        LR's working color space is ProPhoto RGB with 1.0 Gamma and 48 bit color (16bit/color), called Melissa RGB. There is absolutely no limitation that I am aware of with any device image data input.

                                        • 18. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                                          thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                          trshaner wrote:

                                           

                                          Conrad C wrote:

                                           

                                          Earlier you said "If I understand this correctly (as a lay person), even the standard ProPhoto by itself won't cut it, because it is an 8-bit color space (as far as I know).

                                          LR's working color space is ProPhoto RGB with 1.0 Gamma and 48 bit color (16bit/color), called Melissa RGB. There is absolutely no limitation that I am aware of with any device image data input.

                                          To be super picky, no. Melissa RGB is the name of the color space used for the Histogram and percentage values when you're not soft proofing. That's ProPhoto RGB primaries (gamut) and a 2.2 sRGB tone curve.

                                           

                                          There's no name for the internal processing color space which is ProPhoto RGB primaries (gamut) and a 1.0 TRC.

                                           

                                          As to the the text about ProPhoto RGB and bit depth. Working space do not have bit depths. They again are just containers. They are only defined by the primaries (thus their gamut), white point and gamma/TRC. That's it. Image data (pixels) undergo encoding from the original raw. The encoding can be whatever we select for rendering INTO the container (the working space).

                                          • 19. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                                            NY2LA Level 1

                                            I have probably created confusion by bringing up two separate issues, which I should have dealt with separately:

                                             

                                            1.) The author of the Kodak paper linked to above proposing an encoding scheme with 4096 levels in order to accommodate the dynamic range of color negative film. I was wondering how to preserve 4096 levels of information in a color space with only 256 levels, even if it is spread over a full 16 bit workspace.

                                             

                                            2.) Saving money by ordering 8-bit instead of 16-bit drum scans. I never intended to suggest an 8-bit workflow is okay for high dynamic range.

                                             

                                            thedigitaldog's illustration showing the steps is an enormously helpful illustration. I think that I now understand the black point and white point may represent the same thing, regardless of whether you start with 256 levels or 4096 levels. And trshaner's comment is very helpful, because it explains Melissa RGB can preserve those 4096 steps (for example).

                                            • 20. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                                              Conrad C Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                              NY2LA wrote:

                                              I was wondering how to preserve 4096 levels of information in a color space with only 256 levels, even if it is spread over a full 16 bit workspace.

                                              But as thedigitaldog and I are saying, you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist because color space and bit depth are independent of each other. If you want to preserve 4096 levels, you simply pick a bit depth that preserves 4096 levels, regardless of the color space because any RGB color space will work with 8bpc or 16bpc documents.

                                               

                                              ProPhoto RGB, Adobe RGB, and sRGB can all be used with 8bpc or 16bpc documents.

                                               

                                              It may be useful to know that the book you referenced was written in 2003. At that time, high-bit workflows were rare or impractical, so there was a fair amount of work done to try and figure out how to encode more color in 8bpc. It sounds like the proposal you saw was one idea, another idea was BruceRGB. But both ideas became unnecessary, and research in that direction stopped, as soon as it became no problem for computers and software to handle 16bpc workflows.

                                              • 21. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                                                thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                NY2LA wrote:

                                                 

                                                2.) Saving money by ordering 8-bit instead of 16-bit drum scans. I never intended to suggest an 8-bit workflow is okay for high dynamic range.

                                                One has nothing to do with the other. That scanner has a fixed dynamic range no matter how you encode the data.

                                                IF you got that drum scan such you needed no further pixel editing, there's no advantage to the high bit version and at two disadvantage; file size and as you suggest, cost. The entire reason for high bit data is over head in editing such you can send the best 24 bits to the output device.

                                                 

                                                Epson printers on the Mac have drivers that allow us to send either 8-bit per color or high bit through the driver. I can't see any difference printing the same image from both bit depth's under the best loupe I own! Now if I edit the 8-bit per color image a good deal and the high bit version equally, that may not be the case.

                                                 

                                                http://digitaldog.net/files/TheHighBitdepthDebate.pdf

                                                • 22. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                                                  NY2LA Level 1

                                                  Conrad C wrote:

                                                   

                                                  But as thedigitaldog and I are saying, you're trying to solve a problem that doesn't exist because color space and bit depth are independent of each other. If you want to preserve 4096 levels, you simply pick a bit depth that preserves 4096 levels, regardless of the color space because any RGB color space will work with 8bpc or 16bpc documents.

                                                   

                                                   

                                                  Seems to me, they are intertwined, considering luminance values are calculated from RGB values. So if we have 4096 steps of luminance values from a scanner, exactly where/how are you suggesting those steps are preserved going forward?

                                                   

                                                  I can see that we have this going on with proprietary camera raw formats, and Lightroom RGB. But do we have this going on outside the walled garden of Lightroom?

                                                  Conrad C wrote:

                                                   

                                                  ProPhoto RGB, Adobe RGB, and sRGB can all be used with 8bpc or 16bpc documents.

                                                   

                                                  Sure. That doesn't necessarily mean more than 256 levels are inside a 16-bit image (before editing and math takes place to create new incremental values.)

                                                  • 23. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                                                    trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                    thedigitaldog wrote:

                                                     

                                                    trshaner wrote:

                                                     

                                                    LR's working color space is ProPhoto RGB with 1.0 Gamma and 48 bit color (16bit/color), called Melissa RGB. There is absolutely no limitation that I am aware of with any device image data input.

                                                    To be super picky, no. Melissa RGB is the name of the color space used for the Histogram and percentage values when you're not soft proofing. That's ProPhoto RGB primaries (gamut) and a 2.2 sRGB tone curve.

                                                    You are 100% correct! The last time read about LR's working and viewing spaces was long ago.....haven't worried about it sense.

                                                     

                                                    I think we're beating a dead-horse with this discussion. Hard drive's are now dirt-cheap compared to what they cost in the year 2000! When scanning use 48 bit mode (16 bit/color) and you'll have nothing to worry about!

                                                     

                                                    Here's an article on LR's RGB spaces written by someone at Adobe around 2012: http://ptgmedia.pearsoncmg.com/imprint_downloads/peachpit/peachpit/lightroom4/pdf_files/Li ghtroomRGB_Space.pdf

                                                    • 24. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                                                      thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                      trshaner wrote:

                                                       

                                                      thedigitaldog wrote:

                                                       

                                                      trshaner wrote:

                                                       

                                                      LR's working color space is ProPhoto RGB with 1.0 Gamma and 48 bit color (16bit/color), called Melissa RGB. There is absolutely no limitation that I am aware of with any device image data input.

                                                      To be super picky, no. Melissa RGB is the name of the color space used for the Histogram and percentage values when you're not soft proofing. That's ProPhoto RGB primaries (gamut) and a 2.2 sRGB tone curve.

                                                      You are 100% correct! The last time read about LR's working and viewing spaces was long ago.....haven't worried about it sense.

                                                       

                                                      I think we're beating a dead-horse with this discussion. Hard drive's are now dirt-cheap compared to what they cost in the year 2000! When scanning use 48 bit mode (16 bit/color) and you'll have nothing to worry about!

                                                       

                                                      Here's an article on LR's RGB spaces written by someone at Adobe around 2012: http://ptgmedia.pearsoncmg.com/imprint_downloads/peachpit/peachpit/lightroom4/pdf_files/Li ghtroomRGB_Space.pdf

                                                      I suspect Martin Evening.

                                                      And yes, the horse is dead, it ceases to exist, it is no more.....

                                                      • 25. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                                                        thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                        NY2LA wrote:Sure. That doesn't necessarily mean more than 256 levels are inside a 16-bit image (before editing and math takes place to create new incremental values.)

                                                        You're confusing working spaces and their differing color gamuts (and tone curves/white points) which is what makes them differ in terms of the container with pixels and their encodings.

                                                        If I have a 3lb Apple pie, it's 3lbs. The container can old no more. I can cut that pie into 8 or 16 slices. The pie is still 3lbs. Slicing the pie is encoding.

                                                        • 26. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                                                          Conrad C Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                          NY2LA wrote:

                                                          Seems to me, they are intertwined, considering luminance values are calculated from RGB values. So if we have 4096 steps of luminance values from a scanner, exactly where/how are you suggesting those steps are preserved going forward?...outside the walled garden of Lightroom?

                                                          Same answer as the others...in a 16 bits per channel document, where each channel can accommodate tens of thousands of levels. That's more than enough for the 4096 you want to preserve.

                                                           

                                                          I understand that a concern might be file size. 16 bpc TIFFs can be large. But saving 16bpc TIFFs with ZIP compression can cut them down by several percent.

                                                          NY2LA wrote:

                                                          Conrad C wrote:

                                                          ProPhoto RGB, Adobe RGB, and sRGB can all be used with 8bpc or 16bpc documents.

                                                          Sure. That doesn't necessarily mean more than 256 levels are inside a 16-bit image (before editing and math takes place to create new incremental values.)

                                                          If you're sending film off to be scanned on professional equipment by good operators, the source data should always have more than 256 levels. So the starting point is usually well above 256 levels anyway. If what you're pointing out is that an image file may not be using the entire 16 bits per channel, that's true and normal for most images these days, such as the raw files coming from many digital SLR cameras that output 12 or 14 bits. So that's not a concern. 16bpc is used simply because it's the next easiest standard step up from 8bpc. The main point is that the original color data from many cameras and scanners today can be stored at essentially full quality at somewhere between 10 and 16 bits per channel, and 8bpc is usually not enough.

                                                           

                                                          Now, there is one way that 8-bit wide gamut might work for you, and it's something thedigitaldog mentioned:

                                                          thedigitaldog wrote:

                                                          IF you got that drum scan such you needed no further pixel editing, there's no advantage to the high bit version and at two disadvantage; file size and as you suggest, cost. The entire reason for high bit data is over head in editing such you can send the best 24 bits to the output device.

                                                          If you're getting scans that are already corrected so well that they need little to no editing before your final output, you can try ordering 8bpc scans in Adobe RGB or ProPhoto RGB. You would have wide gamut in a small file. Just don't edit them very much, because they won't withstand as much editing before the color starts to fall apart.

                                                          • 27. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                                                            NY2LA Level 1

                                                            There is still a missing link in everything that all of you are saying.

                                                             

                                                            When the scanner data gets encoded into the image file, it will be encoded according to the specified color space encoding scheme. And as far as I know, the color space encoding schemes are based on efficiently encoding data into the number of levels that 8-bit provides, whether into an 8-bit TIFF container, or a 16-bit TIFF container.

                                                             

                                                            Actually, I think it may be a waste of money to pay for a 16-bit scan, rather than convert an 8-bit scan to 16-bit yourself for editing.

                                                            • 28. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                                                              thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                              NY2LA wrote:

                                                              When the scanner data gets encoded into the image file, it will be encoded according to the specified color space encoding scheme.

                                                              Color spaces have NOTHING to do with encoding! I don’t know if you are purposely trying not to understand this, or if you are really struggling with it.

                                                              And as far as I know, the color space encoding schemes are based on efficiently encoding data into the number of levels that 8-bit provides, whether into an 8-bit TIFF container, or a 16-bit TIFF container.

                                                              Different RGB working spaces have different sized color gamuts or the range of colors. The wider the gamut, the closer to L*a*b (which more or less defines the 'gamut' of human vision) the more efficient it is said to be:

                                                              Welcome to Bruce Lindbloom's Web Site

                                                              As you can see, the small sRGB color gamut has a mere 35% gamut efficiency compared to say ProPhoto RGB that has a gamut efficiency of 91.2%. Is this what you're referring to? Otherwise, again; encoding is encoding. Color spaces are color spaces. A color space has nothing to do with encoding a pixel value. A color space is just a container for a pixel! Without a pixel, the color space is empty and well, useless.

                                                              • 29. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                                                                trshaner Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                NY2LA wrote:

                                                                 

                                                                Actually, I think it may be a waste of money to pay for a 16-bit scan, rather than convert an 8-bit scan to 16-bit yourself for editing.

                                                                Anyone who is charging more than a 10% premium for 16 bit scans is gouging the customer.

                                                                 

                                                                When you convert an 8 bit image file to 16 bit the image data remains identical. The pixel values are merely converted to 16 bit precision. When you scan an image at 16 bit the actual AtoD converter output value is recorded (12 bit, 14 bit, 16 bit converter) and not rounded to 8 bits. There's no way you can recover this additional data from an 8 bit scan file. When applying color correction, contrast curves, and B&W point setting the 8 bit image data is effectively "stretched" and can reveal banding in fine gradient areas. You can add noise or dithering in PS to hide banding, but that degrades the image in even tone areas.

                                                                Do you shoot camera JPEG or raw file format? If you shoot raw then why would you be satisfied with 8 bit film scans? It's virtually the same analogy (8 bit versus 12 or 14 bit).

                                                                • 30. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                                                                  NY2LA Level 1

                                                                  thedigitaldog wrote:

                                                                   

                                                                  Color spaces have NOTHING to do with encoding! I don’t know if you are purposely trying not to understand this, or if you are really struggling with it.

                                                                   

                                                                  Okay, then please explain what happens when you chose sRGB, Adobe RGB, or ProPhoto with your scanner software (selected to 16-bit, TIFF).

                                                                  thedigitaldog wrote:

                                                                   

                                                                  Different RGB working spaces have different sized color gamuts or the range of colors.

                                                                   

                                                                  Please forget about RGB working spaces. That comes later in the workflow after a scan is done, it seems to me.

                                                                  • 31. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                                                                    NY2LA Level 1

                                                                    trshaner wrote:

                                                                     

                                                                    Do you shoot camera JPEG or raw file format? If you shoot raw then why would you be satisfied with 8 bit film scans? It's virtually the same analogy (8 bit versus 12 or 14 bit).

                                                                    I don't shoot digital photos. I only work with remastering old photos shot on film. The film grain is natural dithering. Even at a time when my entire workflow was 8-bit (it's not any more), I never saw banding in any of my images. I had my eye out for it.

                                                                    • 32. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                                                                      NY2LA Level 1

                                                                      trshaner wrote:

                                                                       

                                                                      NY2LA wrote:

                                                                       

                                                                      Actually, I think it may be a waste of money to pay for a 16-bit scan, rather than convert an 8-bit scan to 16-bit yourself for editing.

                                                                      Anyone who is charging more than a 10% premium for 16 bit scans is gouging the customer.

                                                                       

                                                                      When you convert an 8 bit image file to 16 bit the image data remains identical. The pixel values are merely converted to 16 bit precision. When you scan an image at 16 bit the actual AtoD converter output value is recorded (12 bit, 14 bit, 16 bit converter) and not rounded to 8 bits. There's no way you can recover this additional data from an 8 bit scan file. When applying color correction, contrast curves, and B&W point setting the 8 bit image data is effectively "stretched" and can reveal banding in fine gradient areas. You can add noise or dithering in PS to hide banding, but that degrades the image in even tone areas.

                                                                      I first, I thought this is a really good explanation. I read it three times, and realized, you left gaps in your explanation. Go from "When you scan an image at 16 bit the actual AtoD converter output value is recorded (12 bit, 14 bit, 16 bit converter) and not rounded to 8 bits." Forget about "When applying color correction, contrast curves, and B&W point setting the 8 bit image data is effectively "stretched" and can reveal banding in fine gradient areas." Consider scanning software with settings to create your user friendly, cross platform 16-bit TIFF file. (As Ian Lyons stated long ago, Lightroom has no support for scanning.) You select a color space such as sRGB, Adobe RGB, or ProPhoto with your scanning software. An image file is a bunch of numbers. The software has to take the voltages from the scanner, and assign numbers or something like that. (Seems like a type of encoding to me.) Okay, how does it decide on those numbers, those values? From color spaces designed for 8-bit systems, I am suggesting.

                                                                      • 33. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                                                                        thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                        NY2LA wrote: Okay, then please explain what happens when you chose sRGB, Adobe RGB, or ProPhoto with your scanner software (selected to 16-bit, TIFF).

                                                                        Simple; the data is converted from the scanner color space into that color space. That's it. Absolutely nothing to do with encoding!

                                                                        NY2LA wrote:

                                                                        Please forget about RGB working spaces. That comes later in the workflow after a scan is done, it seems to me.

                                                                        There's a scanner color space. It's defined by some ICC profile. You can get the scan in that color space or in any RGB working space from that scanner color space someone converts that space into. That's it.

                                                                        • 34. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                                                                          thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                          NY2LA wrote: You select a color space such as sRGB, Adobe RGB, or ProPhoto with your scanning software.

                                                                          Not necessarily! There's a native color space from the scanner. You want that? The 'raw' color data; ask for it. You can convert to any color space from that source color space you desire. There is absolutely no rule that a scan can't be in it's native RGB color space! In fact, there are reasons why that might be ideal! Just as converting 8-bits per color to 16-bit buys you NOTHING, converting from the native scanner color space into a larger gamut working space buys you nothing other than the SINGLE attribute all RGB working space share and is kind of useful: When R=G=B, it's neutral. That may not be the case with an input (scanner, camera) color space or an output (printer) color space.

                                                                          • 35. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                                                                            NY2LA Level 1

                                                                            thedigitaldog wrote:

                                                                             

                                                                            NY2LA wrote: Okay, then please explain what happens when you chose sRGB, Adobe RGB, or ProPhoto with your scanner software (selected to 16-bit, TIFF).

                                                                            Simple; the data is converted from the scanner color space into that color space. That's it. Absolutely nothing to do with encoding!

                                                                            NY2LA wrote:

                                                                            Please forget about RGB working spaces. That comes later in the workflow after a scan is done, it seems to me.

                                                                            There's a scanner color space. It's defined by some ICC profile. You can get the scan in that color space or in any RGB working space from that scanner color space someone converts that space into. That's it.

                                                                            Note the ICC uses the term encoding: Three component color encoding registry

                                                                            • 36. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                                                                              NY2LA Level 1

                                                                              thedigitaldog wrote:

                                                                               

                                                                              Not necessarily! There's a native color space from the scanner. You want that? The 'raw' color data; ask for it.

                                                                              That's a good suggestion, getting the scanner's raw data. It's not so easy though, because there is no such thing as an equivalent to camera raw with scanners.

                                                                              • 37. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                                                                                thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                                NY2LA wrote:

                                                                                 

                                                                                thedigitaldog wrote:

                                                                                 

                                                                                Not necessarily! There's a native color space from the scanner. You want that? The 'raw' color data; ask for it.

                                                                                That's a good suggestion, getting the scanner's raw data. It's not so easy though, because there is no such thing as an equivalent to camera raw with scanners.

                                                                                It's very easy to get. Look, I've owned and reviewed for publications, dozens of scanners dating back to a Leaf 45 in early 1990's including two PMT drums. I ran a service bureau many years ago, providing drum scans from both Howtek and Scanview units. Both had software that supported input ICC profiles. Both allowed me to scan into that color space. The term 'raw' (with quotes on purpose) was to define data long before CFA raw camera data even existed. It means the native color space of the scanner. NOT an RGB working space which are all theoretical color spaces that are composed of only three attributes I've already outlined for you. One scans a target (usually an IT8) with NO color management, builds a scanner profile and embeds that with the scanner data. That's it. Simple. This has absolutely nothing to do with a camera's raw CFA data. And you're again wrong; it is easy to produce, easy to provide.

                                                                                And none of this has anything to do with Lightroom. You really need to find another venue to educate yourself on scanning and color management as this is getting way off topic. Your questions about LR's use of high bit data was answered, correctly by multiple posters, long ago.

                                                                                • 38. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                                                                                  NY2LA Level 1

                                                                                  Although the original poster seems to be long gone, perhaps someone could post a little info on getting the raw data from the Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner.

                                                                                  • 39. Re: Is Lightroom 4.4 a 24 bit color or a 48 bit color program.  I want to scan in photos and film using an Epson Perfection 600 V Photo scanner
                                                                                    thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                                    NY2LA wrote:

                                                                                    Note the ICC uses the term encoding: Three component color encoding registry

                                                                                    Note, I'm a member of the ICC.

                                                                                    Note, the URL has nothing to do with the bit depth encoding of pixels. When one selects an RGB working space, one IS encoding data into that color space.

                                                                                    1 2 Previous Next