35 Replies Latest reply on Jul 29, 2016 3:49 PM by Geoff the kiwi

    Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?

    BoomerM3 Level 1

      I am importing raw files into LR5 instructing LR to store the accompanying jpeg file as a sidecar file. In the library module, I see the file type raw + jpg. However, I don't see the jpg file (or any sidecar file) stored on the disk drive.

       

      Where is the sidecar file stored? How can I delete (remove) the jpg file if I choose to?

       

      Thanks.

        • 1. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
          thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

          JPEG's are just that, they are not stored in the sidecar file, that's just text (XMP).

          • 2. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
            JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

            There is no option to treat the JPEG as a sidecar file. It is a separate file. But there is an option to create raw and JPEG images as separate files. Do you have that option selected in your preferences?

            • 3. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
              BoomerM3 Level 1

              From the Help File

              Treat JPEG Files Next To Raw Files As Separate Photos

              "For photographers who capture raw + JPEG photos on their cameras. Selecting this option imports the JPEG as a standalone photo. If selected, both the raw and the JPEG files are visible and can be edited in Lightroom. If deselected, Lightroom treats the duplicate JPEG as a sidecar file, and the raw file appears with the raw file extension and +jpg. "

               

              I have DESELECTED the option -- therefore, LR says it treats the JPEG *** a sidecar file.

               

              Am I not understanding this? Where is the jpg file stored?

              • 4. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                BoomerM3 wrote:

                I have DESELECTED the option -- therefore, LR says it treats the JPEG *** a sidecar file.

                Am I not understanding this? Where is the jpg file stored?

                I don't blame you, that's rather unclear. The bottom line is, a JPEG is a JPEG. Editing instructions can be embedded directly into that container. That's not the case with camera original proprietary raw, Adobe treats this as read only. Since it doesn't store that inside the container, it creates a sidecar file. DNG is Adobe's open format and like TIFF or JPEG, they have no problems putting this data into that container, no need for a sidecar file.

                • 5. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                  BoomerM3 Level 1

                  Thanks for the explanation. The problem is that I don't see either a jpg or xmp file on the disk. Only the raw file is in the directory (Win 7). So, where is it stored?

                  • 6. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                    thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                    BoomerM3 wrote:

                     

                    Thanks for the explanation. The problem is that I don't see either a jpg or xmp file on the disk. Only the raw file is in the directory (Win 7). So, where is it stored?

                    The sidecar should be there, certainly after you apply an edit to the proprietary raw. The JPEG has to be imported too so check your preferences and import settings. I'm on a Mac but when I do use camera raws (not DNG which is the norm), the sidecar is listed just next to the raw. Look for .xmp

                    • 7. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                      BoomerM3 Level 1

                      My "Catalog Settings" have the "Automatically write changes into XMP". I remember I once had a problem with writing XMP data.

                       

                      A search of my drive reveals that I have NO XMP files - but editing and history work fine. Is it advisable to write XMP files?

                      • 8. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                        ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        The LR database (catalog) contains the settings that LR uses with an image after you have started working with it.

                         

                        XMP files have a copy of your last set of edits and most of the metadata as of the last time the XMP was updated, so are a second-chance backup of sorts if you lose your catalog, entirely, or if you want to browse to the same folder with Bridge and see the LR edits, because bridge will pick up what settings are in the XMP files as it has no way to look inside a LR database. 

                         

                        XMP files are not necessary for LR to function, though.

                        • 9. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                          BoomerM3 Level 1

                          Excellent response. One last question ---

                          If there is no XMP file, then where is the JPEG file stored? In the LR catalog?

                          • 10. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                            ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            What JPG file are you asking about?   A sidecar file means one that LR moves and deletes along with the master photo.  It can contain settings if it’s an XMP but if it’s a JPG it may just be tagging along because you shot RAW+JPG and imported both but didn’t treat them as separate.

                            • 11. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                              thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                              BoomerM3 wrote:

                              If there is no XMP file, then where is the JPEG file stored? In the LR catalog?

                              The edits that would be in an XMP is in the catalog. But you keep talking about a JPEG which is totally different and separate from the XMP file. You have to shoot and import the JPEG for one and where it resides is where you put it in the first place, unless it's just sitting on the camera card.

                              • 12. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                                JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                Are you asking about the JPEG "preview" that is part of the raw file? If you are, that preview is embedded in the raw file. It is not a separate JPEG file that you will see in Lightroom or on your computer using your system browser.

                                • 13. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                                  BoomerM3 Level 1

                                  Apparently my original post was not clear. I am shooting RAW + JPEG. I am importing to LR, setting the option to treat the JPEG as a sidecar file which causes the raw file to appear with the raw file extension and +jpg.

                                   

                                  lib view.jpg

                                  Note the top of the image (RAF is Fuji RAW). Apparently, LR received and stored both images. However, there is only the RAW file on the disk. QUESTION: Where is the JPEG file?

                                   

                                  Thanks.

                                  • 14. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                                    JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    There is no option to "treat the JPEG as a sidecar file". There is an option to treat JPEG files next to raw files as separate photos. When that option is chosen (highlighted or checked) the JPEG images will display along with the raw images. If it is not selected then the JPEG files will not be displayed. There is no JPEG "sidecar" file. That's why I asked If you are referring to the embedded JPEG preview. Your terminology referring to a JPEG sidecar file is not correct. If you selected the option to treat the JPEG files as separate problems AFTER you imported some images, that will not automatically make the JPEG files that you have imported display. Since I never use JPEG files I can't tell you how to make those JPEG files appear. Someone else will have to do that.

                                    • 15. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                                      thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                      BoomerM3 wrote:

                                      I am shooting RAW + JPEG. I am importing to LR, setting the option to treat the JPEG as a sidecar file which causes the raw file to appear with the raw file extension and +jpg.

                                      Again, forget that bit about treat the JPEG as a sidecar file.

                                      IF you are shooting raw+JPEG and you have the preferences set correctly, you should see both.

                                      • 16. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                                        JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        Is it possible that there is a filter set to only display a raw files?

                                        • 17. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                                          ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                          JPGs are indeed a sidecar if the treat-separately is unchecked and both are in the folder when the raws are imported.  That doesn’t mean that the JPGs hold the settings for the raw files, just that they tag-along when the raws are moved or deleted.

                                           

                                          So the answer the question in the subject of this thread and re-asked just prior, the jpeg files are in the same folder as the raws when they are the sidecar files of the raws, but they are not visible in LR as an image.  To get them imported as a separate image adjacent to the raw file you have to check the treat-separately setting before importing.

                                           

                                          It seems like you have said that the JPGs are side-car files but there are no JPGs in the folder.  If you are looking in Explorer or Finder (rather than LR) and see no JPGs then they must have been removed after the import because to be a sidecar they would need to have been next to their corresponding raws during the import process.

                                          1 person found this helpful
                                          • 18. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                                            thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                            ssprengel wrote:

                                             

                                            JPGs are indeed a sidecar if the treat-separately is unchecked and both are in the folder when the raws are imported.  That doesn’t mean that the JPGs hold the settings for the raw files, just that they tag-along when the raws are moved or deleted

                                            They are not sidecar files unless they contained the edits from the raws and they don't. They, like all rendered images in TIFF, JPEG  etc, can contain the metadata instructions inside the container but calling them sidecar files doesn't make any sense to me. Sidecar to what? That language is confusing if that's what Adobe is proposing. If I conduct an Edit in Photoshop and spin off a new iteration, is that too a sidecar file?

                                            • 19. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                                              areohbee Level 5

                                              Andrew Rodney wrote:

                                               

                                              They are not sidecar files unless they contained the edits from the raws and they don't.

                                              I'm with ssprengel on this one - jpegs are raw sidecars (if not imported separately), whether they contain edits from the raw files or not.

                                               

                                              I mean, raws can have at least 2 different kinds of sidecars:

                                              1. xmp sidecars which usually contain edit metadata.
                                              2. jpegs which usually don't.

                                               

                                              In other words, whether a file is considered a sidecar or not has nothing to do with whether it contains editing instructions, it has to do with whether it's to be moved/renamed and/or deleted along with.. xmp files are just one kind of sidecar.

                                               

                                              R

                                              • 20. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                                                thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                So the example I gave of a saved TIFF from a round trip IS a sidecar file?

                                                • 21. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                                                  areohbee Level 5

                                                  To answer your questions more specifically:

                                                   

                                                  |>"Sidecar to what?"

                                                  The raw file.

                                                   

                                                  |>"That language is confusing if that's what Adobe is proposing."

                                                  It's not a proposal, it's been used consistently since Lr1.

                                                   

                                                  |>"If I conduct an Edit in Photoshop and spin off a new iteration, is that too a sidecar file?"

                                                  No - not if it's a "new iteration" (i.e. imported in Lightroom separately). On the other hand, if you remove the raw file from Lightroom, then spin off the same jpeg in Photoshop and import the raw+jpeg (not separately), then it will be a raw sidecar.

                                                   

                                                  Note: the base filename of the jpeg must be the same as the raw upon import for it to be treated as a sidecar.

                                                  • 23. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                                                    thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                    Ok so If I do an Export and use the option to save to catalog, those are sidecar files?

                                                    • 24. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                                                      areohbee Level 5

                                                      Andrew Rodney wrote:

                                                       

                                                      Ok so If I do an Export and use the option to save to catalog, those are sidecar files?

                                                      No - it's added to the catalog as a separate photo (regardless of how "import separately" Lr preference is set).

                                                       

                                                      Again, if you remove *both* from your catalog, and jpeg is:

                                                      * in same folder as raw, and

                                                      * has same base filename, and

                                                      * you have "Import separately" option disabled, and then

                                                      * you import the raw file,

                                                       

                                                      then the exported jpeg will be treated as a sidecar.

                                                      • 25. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                                                        thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                        Thanks Rob. I still think this is bloody confusing and unclear on Adobe's part.

                                                        A raw can have an XMP sidecar (perhaps the key is putting XMP in front of the word sidecar).

                                                        A raw can have an JPEG sidecar.

                                                        A JPEG can have a raw sidecar.

                                                        But how and when this happens seems pretty darn arbitrary. My Import and add to catalog isn't treated this way so one could suggest a sidecar addition happens at import. But that's not the case. I just imported a CRW and did nothing more (and I had nothing set to happen at import). NO XMP Sidecar file built. It would if I applied edits. So the 'make this a sidecar' isn't solely and attribute of Import.

                                                        Again, I think Adobe might have dropped the ball here in terms of naming what's happening unless I'm still missing something. Maybe Sidecar for JPEG wasn't a great name, or we need something besides just Sidecar in the name. We have Virtual Copies and we later got Proof Copies, both are the same thing under the hood but it's easy to differentiae how and when they were built but the two first words; Virtual and Proof.

                                                         

                                                        Water under the bridge at this point. I think I'll attempt to make an effort to use the term XMP Sidecar to make the file non ambiguous.

                                                        • 26. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                                                          areohbee Level 5

                                                          Andrew Rodney wrote:

                                                           

                                                          Thanks Rob.

                                                          You're welcome.

                                                           

                                                          Andrew Rodney wrote:

                                                           

                                                          I still think this is bloody confusing and unclear on Adobe's part.

                                                          It seems you had previously developed a mindset that sidecar means xmp sidecar. Once you get used to the expanded notion ("sidecar" means "any inextricable file associated with an imported photo or video", which is NOT otherwise (separately) in the catalog too, if such is conceivable) it may not seem confusing or unclear anymore, or maybe it still will - what do I know.. .

                                                           

                                                          Andrew Rodney wrote:

                                                           

                                                          A raw can have an XMP sidecar (perhaps the key is putting XMP in front of the word sidecar).

                                                          Agreed - if not clear from context, the qualification is in order..

                                                           

                                                          Andrew Rodney wrote:

                                                           

                                                          A raw can have an JPEG sidecar.

                                                          True too..

                                                           

                                                          Andrew Rodney wrote:

                                                           

                                                          A JPEG can have a raw sidecar.

                                                          NOT true.

                                                           

                                                          Andrew Rodney wrote:

                                                           

                                                          But how and when this happens seems pretty darn arbitrary.

                                                          It's not really. It helps to think about the purpose. Cameras shoot raw+jpeg, so when a raw is imported and there is a matching jpeg present, it's treated as a sidecar - simple as that (unless you've elected to treat them as separate photos).

                                                           

                                                          PS - Adding an exported file to the catalog, although similar in many respects, is not the same as importing a new photo, from a sidecar point of view anyway.

                                                           

                                                          Rob

                                                          • 27. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                                                            thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                            We're close, but I don't understand what makes a JPEG the raw sidecar but not the other way around. It sounds like you're saying the two are linked so why is this only in one direction? If the raw is the raw and the JPEG is the JPEG and what you do with one has no bearing on the other, why is the JPEG the sidecar and not the other way around? The order shot, imported?

                                                            • 28. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                                                              areohbee Level 5

                                                              Although it's conceivable the jpeg could be imported and the raw treated as a sidecar, so far Lightroom has not supported it. Not sure what else to say..

                                                               

                                                              Maybe one day Adobe will re-invent raw+jpeg handling, and maybe support for related-photo handling will also be re-invented.., but so far, as you know, Lightroom thinks of itself as a raw editor, when there is a raw source file to edit anyway. The jpeg "spouse" being essentially "not pertinent" to development of the raw file - thus classified as a sidecar for lack of anything better to do with it..

                                                               

                                                              Put another way: current design/implementation: you can treat the jpeg as a raw sidecar, or import it as a separate photo - there is no symmetry. Part of the desire for improved raw+jpeg handling is to make the relationship more symmetrical - allow a user to import the jpeg and treat the raw as a sidecar, and at some point reverse the status, since some users would prefer both files to be tracked together (and assigned the same metadata..) at least initally, but choose whether, at any point in time, to accept the jpeg as is (or with quick edits..) to be "the photo", or have the developed raw be "the photo" now (but don't lose the jpeg, yet)..

                                                               

                                                              R

                                                              • 29. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                                                                thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                Rob Cole wrote:

                                                                 

                                                                Although it's conceivable the jpeg could be imported and the raw treated as a sidecar, so far Lightroom has not supported it. Not sure what else to say..

                                                                What treatment? I think that's my confusion. You shoot raw+JPEG, you import them both. What's LR doing with respect to the JPEG that would be different if just imported it? IOW, what makes one JPEG file the sidecar to the raw but not the other way?

                                                                • 30. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                                                                  areohbee Level 5

                                                                  Andrew Rodney wrote:

                                                                   

                                                                  What treatment? I think that's my confusion. You shoot raw+JPEG, you import them both. What's LR doing with respect to the JPEG that would be different if just imported it? IOW, what makes one JPEG file the sidecar to the raw but not the other way?

                                                                  If you want to understand exactly what it means, from a technical perspective, the best way (since you have the technical aptitude) is to make a new empty catalog, and compare the difference in the database (using an SQLite client app) when you import raw & jpeg separately versus as sidecar.

                                                                   

                                                                  But from a higher level perspective - a sidecar is simply a note which accompanies an imported photo (or video.., but let's not go there now..) - the note says: "don't forget about file-x, which is inextricably related to imported photo as a sidecar". The sidecar itself is NOT otherwise in the database.

                                                                   

                                                                  Whenever Lr moves/renames/deletes a photo, it checks whether there are sidecars and does the same thing to them too - that's it, nothing more (as of Lr5.5..).

                                                                   

                                                                  And if jpeg imported separately, there are NO ties whatsoever to the raw - they are in the database as completely separate photos, like any other completely separate photos - not related to each other...

                                                                   

                                                                  Rob

                                                                  • 31. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                                                                    thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                    Rob Cole wrote:

                                                                    But from a higher level perspective - a sidecar is simply a note which accompanies an imported photo (or video.., but let's not go there now..) - the note says: "don't forget about file-x, which is inextricably related to imported photo as a sidecar". The sidecar itself is NOT otherwise in the database    

                                                                    OK, I think I get it now. The JPEG isn't in the database but the raw is in this workflow so the raw can't be the sidecar.

                                                                    And if jpeg imported separately, there are NO ties whatsoever to the raw - they are in the database as completely separate photos, like any other completely separate photos - not related to each other...

                                                                    Sure, that makes sense.

                                                                    • 32. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                                                                      areohbee Level 5

                                                                      Andrew Rodney wrote:

                                                                       

                                                                      OK, I think I get it now. The JPEG isn't in the database but the raw is in this workflow so the raw can't be the sidecar.

                                                                      I think you've got it now too .

                                                                       

                                                                      FWIW - It's not the only way it could have been done, and some people aren't happy with either choice (import separately, or with jpeg as raw sidecar).

                                                                       

                                                                      A perfect workflow for some people would be:

                                                                      1. Import jpeg (raw to be remembered, but maybe moved to an archive location, hidden, but viewable without too much trouble..), and use it immediately.

                                                                      2. Develop raw of chosen photos only (or all photos eventually), and have it replace jpeg (either permanently, i.e. delete the jpeg, or save the jpeg still, in case mind changes, or one is waxing nostalgic/sentimental (i.e. for comparison purposes)). If developed raw not superior, yet, then switch back to the jpeg, for now.. And of course, one may also decide to permanently delete the raw file - not all photos warrant raw development, and some people are willing to commit to deleting the raw file in the interest of conserving storage.

                                                                       

                                                                      Note: keywords (and other IPTC metadata) needs to go to both files, so you don't have to re-sync metadata manually, when switching.

                                                                       

                                                                      In other words, the relationship is symmetrical (either can represent "the photo"), and dynamic (can be easily changed back and forth).

                                                                       

                                                                      Such a workflow is very cumbersome in Lightroom now, to say the least - thus the impetus for popular feature requests to improve handling..

                                                                       

                                                                      Me? - I mostly just edit all the raws and forget the jpegs, so none of this matters to me very much (anymore), but it's not the only way (and it used to matter to me more..).

                                                                       

                                                                      Rob

                                                                      • 33. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                                                                        thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                                        Rob Cole wrote:

                                                                        Me? - I mostly just edit all the raws and forget the jpegs, so none of this matters to me very much (anymore), but it's not the only way (and it used to matter to me more..).

                                                                        Understood, I'm in the same boat. I don't know I've ever set my cameras for raw+JPEG. Hence my confusion which you've cleared up so thanks!

                                                                        • 34. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                                                                          chrisyfitzuk

                                                                          Hi there, BommerM3.

                                                                           

                                                                          I had the same question as yourself and I didn't get all the deep discussions here - although I did appreciate them.

                                                                           

                                                                          Just go to LR Preferences and in General, there is a box to tick if you want RAW and jags treated as separate files. It won't work retrospectively but it will for the future.

                                                                          • 35. Re: Where is the jpeg file when stored as a sidecar?
                                                                            Geoff the kiwi Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                                            chrisyfitzuk wrote:

                                                                             

                                                                            Hi there, BommerM3.

                                                                             

                                                                            I had the same question as yourself and I didn't get all the deep discussions here - although I did appreciate them.

                                                                             

                                                                            Just go to LR Preferences and in General, there is a box to tick if you want RAW and jags treated as separate files. It won't work retrospectively but it will for the future.

                                                                            You can have it work retrospectively after checking the Treat Separately box - Synchronise the folder and the jpegs will then be imported as separate files....