24 Replies Latest reply on Jul 31, 2014 5:09 PM by elellilrah

    Having trouble with bleed settings

    elellilrah Level 1

      Hello,

      I'm trying to make an image a full bleed on an 8.5x11 page. I've got the "Use Document Bleed Settings" checkbox selected in the Bleed and Slug panel of the Marks and Bleeds setting in the PDF export. However, I'm getting this blanking area and then a thin duplication of the image on the verso page. Also, there's a white gutter area. When I deselect the check box, the image seems to look correct on the page. However, I'm concerned that if the checkbox isn't selected, something else might not print properly.

      I've also got some images that cross from one page to another. With the box checked, the image doesn't split correctly but there's a small duplication on the other page, suggesting the image won't print up properly. I don't mind that some of the image disappears into the gutter/spine, it's part of the look. But I don't want a white stripe & thin slice or replicated part of the image on the opposing page.

      Does anyone have a suggestion of how to handle this properly?

      Thank you!

      Screen Shot 2014-07-21 at 10.57.00 PM.png

      Screen Shot 2014-07-21 at 11.04.19 PM.png

        • 1. Re: Having trouble with bleed settings
          rajsre Adobe Employee

          1. The duplication of image area in print is right behavior for INSIDE bleeds. That is the area supposed to go inside the binding gutter and if properly bound the image should appear from left page to right page in continuity, and the duplicate area not visible outside binding hold.

          2. It is not clear why you get the white edges as shown in the first screenshot. Please describe the layout/imposition. Have you used a SPLIT image on right and left pages? Have you used any imposition arrangement where the facing pages are reforming with pages of other spreads? Have you used "space between" settings, as you do for perfect binding style?

          • 2. Re: Having trouble with bleed settings
            Salah Fadlabi Level 5

            See: Breaking page apart to bleed off a spine

            http://indesignsecrets.com/breaking-pages-apart-to-bleed-off-a-spine.php/comment-page-2

             

            Also when you export to pdf you can set inside bleed to zero(0) on the bleed and slug area.

            • 3. Re: Having trouble with bleed settings
              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

              While the bleed area at the spine is the edge of the opposite page, your screen captures don't show what I would expect to see. I've never seen ID make a duplicate of the image and shift it, which is what appears to be happening in the screens shots. What version of ID are you using, and what OS?

              • 4. Re: Having trouble with bleed settings
                rajsre Adobe Employee

                For INSIDE bleed print option (say from Print Booklet), the image area at spine is in a way duplicated. The left page prints some area of the right page and the right page prints some are of the left page at spine, an area equal to the bleed setting. I explained in my previous note why this is as expected. But this should not create white space except in situation where you make a "space between" setting. If you have made a "space between" setting please make sure that the INSIDE bleed value is adjusted to compensate for the "space between".

                • 5. Re: Having trouble with bleed settings
                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  Unless your printer is asking for an inside bleed set it to 0. Most binding methods don't need an inside bleed because it gets removed when the pages are imposed. Wire-O would be an exception because the inside of the page gets trimmed not folded. In that case you want the repeat in the gutter because the repeated bleed will get trimmed.

                  • 6. Re: Having trouble with bleed settings
                    elellilrah Level 1

                    I'm using ID 8.0.1 in Mac OS 10.9.

                    I get the white stripe when I place a full image covering the outer edge bleeds and abuting right against the inner edge or spine. But when I put an image across the spine and onto the other page, I get the slightly duplicated image as can be seen in the animal horn.

                    When I use Salah Fadlabi's suggestion of unchecking "Use Document Bleed Settings" and then changing the "Inside" bleed to 0in while leaving Top, Bottom and Outside to 0.125in, The image looks correct when I look at a 2-up view, it doesn't get split or have the weird white line.

                    rajsre's suggestion that when the paper is cut, the repeated image with the animal horn will actually look correct. However, I'm not confident how this will play out, as I get the white stripe in the single-page images. I didn't do any special setup like "space between", as I'm not sure where that setting is. Sorry, I'm still learning. When I Export, I'm not doing anything special. I know a little bit of the image will be eaten by the gutter, especially with the images that go across the pages.

                    My printer (Ingramspark) has this to say about gutter margin:

                     

                    ----------------------

                    • GUTTER MARGIN:

                    SADDLE STITCH BOOKS: no gutter margin required; items can be taken completely to the bind edge.

                    PERFECT / CASE LAMINATE / DUST JACKET BOOKS : 0.125" (3 mm) gutter margin (no-ink area) required on the bind side of the interior. These are bound with glue, and the area is designated so it can adhere to all pages (see reference templates for example). Crossover spreads (images/color intended to straddle a spread) may be used as long as the gutter margin is placed in between where the images/color would normally meet.

                     

                     

                    Blue (Bleed) Area / Overall Document Size

                    To determine the final bleed size of your page use the following equation:

                    Final Width = Width of book + 0.125" (3 mm) bleed on trim side. No additional bleed is added to the bind edge. Final Height = Height of book + 0.125" (3 mm) bleed on top + 0.125" (3 mm) bleed on bottom.

                    For example a 6x9" (229x152mm) book will have a final interior size of 6.125" (156 mm) wide x 9.25" (235 mm) tall.

                    If using a background color or image please take those elements to the edge of the bleed area.

                    Pink (Safety) Area

                    A 0.5" (13 mm) margin is recommended inside the trim for color book interiors. For perfect bound and hardcover titles this is in addition to the required 0.125" (3 mm) gutter margin. All headers, footers, page numbers, body text and all non-bleed images need to remain in those margins. Any elements outside of the safety areas are at risk of being trimmed.

                     

                     

                    ----------------------

                    So that would suggest I need a non-colored area on the inside edge of the pages, so the inside edge of the PDF pages should have a white stripe. Am I reading this correctly? I've got my page setup to have a gutter of 0.125in. This  white stripe makes sense for the crossover spread, but it doesn't make sense for the image sitting only on one page.

                     

                    (This paperback book is going to be print perfect bound. I was thinking about making this a hardback book, but I'm looking at cost options - another matter altogether.)

                    Here's what the overall image looks like in ID:

                    Screen Shot 2014-07-22 at 8.07.00 AM.png

                    • 7. Re: Having trouble with bleed settings
                      rajsre Adobe Employee

                      From your recent post I understand that you were not using Print Booklet options. So, if you use 0 inside bleed of printer options (as Rob suggested) is it fitting fine for the binding style you are opting for?

                       

                      The image area getting duplicated, and the white space are probably due to the same settings, the bleed settings. You get the white spacing probably because you have not given enough image area to the adjacent page for the bleed to continue. So it continues to print a white area. You can try reducing the inner bleed value, or increase the image area to the adjacent page so that the bleed is filled up with the image area. Just my guess in this case. Please try.

                      • 8. Re: Having trouble with bleed settings
                        Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                        OK, I misinterpreted your original screen shots which seem to actually be Acrobat showing the two page spread, but you've cropped it to the point where you can only see the bleed area. In the top shot with the white line, the image on the right hand page extends partly into the the left page in your layout, I would surmise, but not as far as the bleed allowance. I'm surmising the image of the elephant is a true cross-over that extends beyond the bleed allowance. Is that correct? If so, then what you are seeing is, indeed correct. If you add crop marks to the PDF you'll see the duplications should be trimmed away.

                         

                        The directions in your post above regarding the bleeds for perfect bound are horrendous, and virtually impossible to work with for crossovers. Essentially they are telling you to make your pages .125"/3mm wider and have no inside bleed, but to leave a blank gutter at the spine. To properly prep those spreads you will need to place the image once the way you want it relative to the outside margin of the page that holds the larger piece, then split the spread (see Salah's link).

                         

                        Now copy the image on the half of the split spread where it appears and paste in place on the other half, so you have two copies of the same linked image. Shift that second copy away from the gutter twice the margin width (.25" or 6mm). Now crop each copy back to the inside "page edge" which is really .125/3mm inside the page (I'd either set the margins for this, or more likely add a guide on the master pages) so it does not extend into the glue area. When you export with the inside bleed should be set to 0 and the glue area should now be blank.

                         

                        It would actually be much easier if you used an inside bleed. Just split the spread and duplicate the cross-overs as above, but there is no need to shift the second copy. Crop both back to the real page edge, leaving the inside bleed allowance blank.

                        • 9. Re: Having trouble with bleed settings
                          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          Ingram's bleed spec's came up in another thread—unfortunately I can't find it.

                           

                          For their perfect bound spec's they are using the word gutter and bleed to mean the same thing. They want an inside bleed with no ink for gluing and there isn't a way to do that in ID if you have crossovers, so you would be forced to include the blank bleed in the document area by adding .125" to the document width.

                           

                          The problem you will run into when you include the inside white "bleed" in the document is you will have to construct crossovers as two separate frames and make sure the inside edges match.

                           

                          I'm guessing this has something to do with the Ingram has set up their automation. Most printers request no inside bleed and then handle the blank glue area during their imposition.

                          • 10. Re: Having trouble with bleed settings
                            rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            You could also place your pages in another ID layout that has the extra .125" and use that layout for the PDF export. Then if you have to move or adjust crossover spreads it would just be a matter of updating the export file. Splitting crossovers like Peter and I described really becomes a problem if you want to adjust the crossover

                            • 11. Re: Having trouble with bleed settings
                              elellilrah Level 1

                              Rob,

                              On further reading and testing, I found that checking the Document Settings box in the PDF export ended up making my pages too big, 8.75 instead of 8.625. I put the inner edge gutter bleed to 0 in the PDF export and all looks well. Except....

                              The spine edge of the paper is not cut. But, I also found that Ingram requires a white inner edge of 0.125in otherwise the glue will not adhere to the paper properly - big problem.

                               

                              Here's a link to their file creation document:

                              http://sastrugipress.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/IngramSpark-File-Creation-Guide.pdf

                              So I need to have a blank white strip of 0.125in in the gutter on both the verso and recto pages according to the above PDF page 14.

                              I certainly don't want my book to fall apart because the glue didn't hold on the ink.

                              So the question distills down to how to add a white strip overlay 0.125in on all the page gutters. Is there a way to add that to the master? I'd like to avoid having to chop and duplicate crossover images. That'd be pain as I move around the images.

                              Thanks!

                              • 12. Re: Having trouble with bleed settings
                                rajsre Adobe Employee

                                The spread design that you posted has a full page image left edge aligned at the spine. When you set an inside bleed, you are telling design to print that much area extra. InDesign cannot create that much extra area from nothingness. It has to print from the print area already provided by you on either side of the spine. So this is what happens:

                                - The left page prints its own white area and extends the print area to some part of the image area of right page as the bleed

                                - The right page prints its own image area and extends the print area to some part of the white area of left page as the bleed

                                - When the whole sequence put together, it is the left page + image area of the right page as bleed + left page white area as bleed + right page

                                Result is: left page + some image area of right page + some white area of left page + image area of right page in that order

                                 

                                What else can InDesign do about this? Why do you find this as a problem when the duplicate printed areas are going into the binding?

                                • 13. Re: Having trouble with bleed settings
                                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  Why do you find this as a problem when the duplicate printed areas are going into the binding?

                                  The problem is the printer's (Ingram) "bleed" requirement for perfect binding (see post 6). They want a .125" inside bleed that's blank, which we all know is impossible when art is crossing over or touching the spine. It's an unreasonable requirement because the printer should be able to add the glue space when they impose.

                                  • 14. Re: Having trouble with bleed settings
                                    rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                    Ingram's submission requirements are generally terrible. They expect the client to handle all prepress tasks and final color management (but they don't provide a color profile):

                                     

                                    Re: Generate PDF without ICC embedded

                                    • 15. Re: Having trouble with bleed settings
                                      elellilrah Level 1

                                      Yes, very true. What I've done is added a Rectangular frame, 0.25in wide, covering any crossover or full-bleed image to meet Ingram's 0.125in gutter requirement. It's a manual operation per page, so it's laborious. Having my books fall apart will be far worse than an extra few minutes adding little rectangles. Once I add them, then I use "Duplicate Spread" so I don't have to keep adding the box.

                                      I'm just hoping it all works out, as it's almost a blind system. Yes, Ingram is a serious challenge but our print runs are too small to justify offset.

                                      I didn't realize one ID file could be embedded in another. I'm trying to avoid that extra layer of complexity, as it increases processing time, as the book is still changing. I admire you pre-press folks - this is difficult!

                                      printing.Screen Shot 2014-07-22 at 4.56.41 PM.png

                                      • 16. Re: Having trouble with bleed settings
                                        rajsre Adobe Employee

                                        I suspect this way of knocking out the centre image area by white overlay for bleed will finally result in an image without continuity in binding styles as "perfect" binding. It may not affect large images like the one shown in your post. But take examples of:

                                        - Cross over text titles on spread (large fonts): After binding, will the cross over title be correctly readable when the book opened?

                                        - Imagine the centre area has a circle or wheel: After binding, will the circle look like a perfect circle when the book opened?

                                        • 17. Re: Having trouble with bleed settings
                                          elellilrah Level 1

                                          You're right on both counts. I suspect if I need that level of quality, I'm going to have to come up with the funds for an offset print run. I hope I'll be able to find a reasonably priced house that will help me through those issues when the time comes.

                                          • 18. Re: Having trouble with bleed settings
                                            tman69 Level 3

                                            what you're doing with the center gutter space is totally wrong-you do not need to add a white rectangle--I work on perfect bound books every day--the only place you need to worry about glue sticking to a page is the FIRST page and the LAST page of the book (the bind side of the interior)--the BEST way to export a pdf for a perfect bound book is as follows--export as single pages, not spreads, check the 'use document bleed settings box', set crop marks to .25" with a .125" offset--and, definitely make sure the pages that are supposed to bleed do in fact have bleed--a PDF exported as I have described should work perfectly--the pages that are butted against each other (with crossover art) will render with either extra image on the bind edge or with no image in the bleed area on the bind edge, which is fine either way--just please please do not give a book printer a PDF that is rendered in 'spreads' as this is what will cause problems--you can create the book as facing pages--but don't export the PDF with 'spreads' checked

                                             

                                            also--I read the printer's instructions for setting up the cover--there is no mention of how to calculate the 'actual' spine width in their instructions--this is critical information!

                                            • 19. Re: Having trouble with bleed settings
                                              elellilrah Level 1

                                              Hi tman69,

                                              I use Ingram's cover template generator. I give it the number of pages, then they email me an ID or PS template. They do have a calculator for spine dimensions in one of their files, though oddly not in their file generation guide. You have to download their template, as it has crop marks, barcodes & the like.

                                              That's what I thought, too, about having the stripe only on the first and last pages. However, I've found that if I don't do everything exactly as they specify, my files are rejected every time. I don't mind that the photos are eaten into the spine a little bit, I can deal with that. It's not perfect, for sure.

                                              I only export as single pages, never a spread for them. The files are rejected otherwise. When I click the checkbox, I get that weird repeated photo problem, then I have to shift the single page full bleed image away from the spine and experiment until it's right.

                                              • 20. Re: Having trouble with bleed settings
                                                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                Have you asked tech support how a crossover is supposed to work?

                                                 

                                                If you need to do a lot of work with Ingram try the placing ID pages in an Export document method.

                                                 

                                                So here I've made two 8 page documents—Layout and Export. Both documents have .125" bleeds with the inside bleed set to 0. Layout's width is 8.5" and Export's width is 8.625". The Export document has an image frame on its left and right master page that bleeds and stops .125" from the spine. I've overriden Export's page 4 and 5 image frames and placed page 4 and 5 from the Layout doc with Show Import Options checked using Bleed bounding box:

                                                 

                                                Screen Shot 2014-07-24 at 12.01.52 PM.png

                                                 

                                                Screen Shot 2014-07-24 at 12.05.37 PM.png

                                                 

                                                 

                                                If I make a change to the crossover in Layout all I have to do is update Export's links—no need to adjust the frames:

                                                 

                                                Screen Shot 2014-07-24 at 12.06.27 PM.png

                                                 

                                                Update:

                                                 

                                                Screen Shot 2014-07-24 at 12.07.08 PM.png

                                                 

                                                I you want I can post the example files.

                                                • 21. Re: Having trouble with bleed settings
                                                  elellilrah Level 1

                                                  Rob,

                                                  No, sorry, I've not contacted them about this. I'll do it early this week. If you can post the example files, I'd greatly appreciate it. I can see what you're doing there, I'll have to try it, as I've never placed on ID document into another.

                                                  Thank you!

                                                  • 22. Re: Having trouble with bleed settings
                                                    rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                    http://www.zenodesign.com/forum/IngramTest.zip

                                                     

                                                    Two things to be careful about both the layout and export docs should have a 0 inside bleed, and when you place the layout page into the export page use Crop to Bleed bounding box. Also helps to have image frames in the export layout on the master pages

                                                    • 23. Re: Having trouble with bleed settings
                                                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                      Also make sure the 2 document's color settings match. When you create the export layout make sure to set Color Settings>Color Management Policies>CMYK>Preserve Numbers(Ignore Linked profiles).

                                                      • 24. Re: Having trouble with bleed settings
                                                        elellilrah Level 1

                                                        This one I've gotten burned on but getting dialed in. This is where automatic software rejection is handy!