36 Replies Latest reply on Jul 25, 2014 4:28 AM by JoeyJoeC

    Can't override item on opposite page

    JoeyJoeC Level 1

      I have a master template which is a double page template.

       

      I can override items on the left page just fine, but when I try to do it on the right side page, it keeps overriding the items that are on the background instead, and brings them to the front. I just want to override an image on top of the background image. Is this possible?

        • 1. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
          Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

          Do you work with layers?

          • 2. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
            JoeyJoeC Level 1

            I usually do in Photoshop, although I tend to avoid it in InDesign.

             

            The layers from the master template won't show here until the layer is overridden anyway.

            • 3. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
              Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

              Master objects are always behind other objects on the same layer, but overriding will bring them forward. It's not clear to me what the actual stacking order is now, and what order you want to achieve. You probably need layers.

              • 4. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                JoeyJoeC Level 1

                I have an entire master template, complete with some background shapes, and text. The background shapes are right at the bottom of the layers.

                 

                When I drag down the master template to create a new set of pages, I can use SHIFT + CTRL and click on the textboxes on the left to override them. This works fine.

                 

                If I want to override the textboxes on the right hand side, it overrides those background layers instead. This happens to anything I try to override on the right hand side.

                 

                Work around would be to override everything, but this beats the point of being able to go back and make changes later.

                • 5. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                  Show us a screen shot of the master page with one of these text frames selected and the Layers panel open and expanded so we can see the stacking order.

                  • 6. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                    JoeyJoeC Level 1

                    Untitled.jpg

                    The layer selected on the master is the top image on the right hand side.

                     

                    The three layers on the bottom of the layers view are the circles on the background.

                     

                     

                    This is what happens when trying to override the same image on the normal page view:

                    Untitled2.jpg

                    • 7. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                      Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                      Something seems odd, certainly. Have you tried this: Remove minor corruption by exporting

                      • 8. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                        JoeyJoeC Level 1

                        I will give that a try.

                         

                        Although that was back in 2011, I'm using CS6

                        • 9. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                          Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                          As long as you don't show us the selected object in the layer panel we cannot tell you waht happens.

                          I think a template is different thing than you suppose it is. It is not a part of the layers.

                          • 10. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                            JoeyJoeC Level 1

                            Could it be anything to do with the way I created the second page?

                             

                            To keep everything in the correct place, I use a trick to duplicate, and then flip everything to the other page using "Scale", then cleared the transformation, so it didn't mirror image everything.

                            • 11. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                              JoeyJoeC Level 1

                              I did, check the comments

                              • 12. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                                Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                Stacking order is stacking order, but there's a lot of stuff in the Layers panel that isn't showing in the screen captures.

                                • 13. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                                  JoeyJoeC Level 1

                                  It's strange.... I just tried to hide the three layers at the bottom which should be the background layers, but they don't disappear. Instead, for some reason the text turns bold, despite not being set to bold... Something definitely not right!

                                  • 14. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                                    Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                    Do the export to .idml. Nothing has changed in how this works.

                                    • 15. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                                      JoeyJoeC Level 1

                                      I tried that too. Same issue.

                                       

                                      Quite annoying, I have 300 pages to do!

                                      • 16. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                                        JoeyJoeC Level 1

                                        If I hide all of the layers on that master template... so that there is only the main group showing, but everything inside it is hidden, I can see the layout of another master template.. but the layers dont show for me to delete it.

                                        • 17. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                                          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                          If you want to share the template, I'll try to find time to look at it and see if I spot the problem.

                                          • 18. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                            This file is clearly too complex to guess what is going on. If you want more help, at least from me, you'll need to provide the file for examination.

                                            • 19. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                                              JoeyJoeC Level 1

                                              I managed to get a master based on another master which confused me. I can get around the override issue, by hiding the layers on the master, then overriding them. Which will do for now.

                                               

                                              If you can figure out why it's doing that, ill send you $10 via paypal!

                                               

                                              http://www.joeyjoe.co.uk/attachments/override-issue.indd

                                              • 20. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                                                Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                                What I don’t understand, what you want to afford with template layers?

                                                Layers are the same on every page. Overriding is not the best idea to get access.

                                                I would recommend not to use such template layers.

                                                Did you consider to use a library and where you need such objects you could place them from a library. THis would make your master page more simple.

                                                • 21. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                                                  Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                                  Here I see the first problem:

                                                  JoeyJoeC wrote:

                                                   

                                                  I usually do in Photoshop, although I tend to avoid it in InDesign.

                                                   

                                                  The layers from the master template won't show here until the layer is overridden anyway.

                                                  Layers in Photoshop are completely different than layers in InDesign. Layers are document wide, not only master page limitted. You are hiding them until you override them, but they are existent and with non Adobe PDF viewers you will see hidden layers. Such a workflow is very very problematic. Here you have to change your method.

                                                  Another problem is that you can’t produce PDF/UA with this method, because master page items must strictly be separated to page items as Master Page items are completely ignored for devices for people with disabilities. Even if you don’t want to create UA documents yet you should keep its logic with every document.

                                                  • 22. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                                                    Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                                    JoeyJoeC wrote:

                                                     

                                                    I have an entire master template, complete with some background shapes, and text. The background shapes are right at the bottom of the layers.

                                                     

                                                    When I drag down the master template to create a new set of pages, I can use SHIFT + CTRL and click on the textboxes on the left to override them. This works fine.

                                                     

                                                    If I want to override the textboxes on the right hand side, it overrides those background layers instead. This happens to anything I try to override on the right hand side.

                                                     

                                                    Work around would be to override everything, but this beats the point of being able to go back and make changes later.

                                                    Sorry, I go your thread through to get your points, point by point, don’t feel offended, I want to guide you what is going wrong here.

                                                    Don't use the master page for such a purpose. If you need to place items exactly on the very same place on different pages, create a library and put repeating elements there. In a InDesign Library (INDL file) you can add anything and when you place items via the panel menu (Place Object(s)) they are exactly positioned on the very same place as the original.

                                                    In your example you have even filled the master page with text and images. Don’t do that. Keep the master as empty as possible. But make following changes:

                                                    1. You don’t use Paragraph, Character or Object Styles. Use them strictly, they will help you. No text without a paragraph style!
                                                    2. Use text variable on the master based on Paragraph or Character styles and/or sections, this will help to avoid to override place holder like you have for the Hotel name.
                                                    3. Don't place text frames into the ”air”, use page margines and column guides. This is very important. When you use Paragraph styles with correct keep options for the headlines you can link all text frames together to get a single story.
                                                    4. Use more layers like Background—Images—Graphics—Text—Page Number—Page Title in that order, images below text, layers don’t cost anything and are very helpful, this is the main problem here.
                                                    5. You should work with color management, you have turned off your color management, this is driving like a ghost rider. This will cause a lot of problems in the production. Turning off color management does not mean that you work without color management, it means only that you are out of control of the color management. InDesign will use default values given by the Operating System and InDesign. But when you produce a printing or web publication you have to decide according to the printers requirement what color settings you are using.

                                                    I would say, according to your link you have given, you should reconsider to start from the scratch.

                                                    • 23. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                                                      Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                                      JoeyJoeC wrote:

                                                       

                                                      Untitled.jpg

                                                      The layer selected on the master is the top image on the right hand side.

                                                       

                                                      The three layers on the bottom of the layers view are the circles on the background.

                                                       

                                                       

                                                      This is what happens when trying to override the same image on the normal page view:

                                                      Untitled2.jpg

                                                      This is happening because you work on only one single layer. Don’t confuse layers with items on a layer. They look similar. If you override any object of a layer it will move on the top of every other object of the very same layer. Because you have worked without layers that is how it works.

                                                      • 24. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                                                        Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                                        JoeyJoeC wrote:

                                                         

                                                        It's strange.... I just tried to hide the three layers at the bottom which should be the background layers, but they don't disappear. Instead, for some reason the text turns bold, despite not being set to bold... Something definitely not right!

                                                        As I said before, don’t confuse layers with items on the layer. Based on the give link you have only one single layer and talk about the bottom most items on that layer, these are no layers, these are objects.

                                                        You have to work with LAYERS!

                                                        • 25. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                                                          Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                                          JoeyJoeC wrote:

                                                           

                                                          I managed to get a master based on another master which confused me. I can get around the override issue, by hiding the layers on the master, then overriding them. Which will do for now.

                                                           

                                                          If you can figure out why it's doing that, ill send you $10 via paypal!

                                                           

                                                          http://www.joeyjoe.co.uk/attachments/override-issue.indd

                                                          I examined this file and have written all the answers to the problems with quotation here.

                                                          There is nothing going wrong with InDesign, problem is how this file is build up.

                                                          Please get some InDesign training as I see you have missing know-how how to work with InDesign. Some methods you are using are remembering me on Quark Xpress. Did you once work with it?

                                                          I had several years to create travel brochures similar to this one. It is VERY important to use styles and layers. Otherwise you run into huge problems.

                                                           

                                                          More in the other answers I have given.

                                                          • 26. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                                                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                            I've been playing with your file, and I'm not certain why it happens, but I think it's because the background elements span the two page master. Curiously, if you put the B master on the left and the A on the right of a two-page spread, the circles also completely obliterate the photos on the right. I believe it is a bug (I'm able to reproduce the effect in a new file and in CS5.5), and you can eliminate the problem by putting the circles and background rectangle on a layer by themselves below the layer with the photos and text.

                                                            • 27. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                                                              Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                                              Peter Spier wrote:

                                                               

                                                              I've been playing with your file, and I'm not certain why it happens, but I think it's because the background elements span the two page master. Curiously, if you put the B master on the left and the A on the right of a two-page spread, the circles also completely obliterate the photos on the right. I believe it is a bug (I'm able to reproduce the effect in a new file and in CS5.5), and you can eliminate the problem by putting the circles and background rectangle on a layer by themselves below the layer with the photos and text.

                                                              I think it works as it should work. If an item is not divided in the spine or is grouped with an item from another page of the spread, if will come forward on both pages of the spread when it is overridden.

                                                              • 28. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                                                                JoeyJoeC Level 1

                                                                Thanks for your answer.

                                                                 

                                                                Wow! Much to consider.

                                                                 

                                                                I've never used Quark. I've literally only ever used Photoshop before. I created a template in Photoshop for someone, who then asked me to create the entire brochure. I didn't have any experience with InDesign, so I had sat with a designer who walked me through the basics.

                                                                 

                                                                I've actually been working on this non-stop and manage to complete 30 pages (1/10th). It's not much but I'd rather give up than start again!!

                                                                 

                                                                I was using the master templates just so everything is positioned correctly and I can override and move things around per the hotel. I didn't know about the libraries. As far as I can tell, the guy who made the previous brochure for this company done it the same as my method!.

                                                                • 29. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                                                                  Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                                  I disagree. You can select that frame on the master page, and you can override it if is on a higher layer than the circles, so ID is treating the stacking order differently on the live page with and without two layers. It should not. The photo is in front of the circle and should be selectable.

                                                                  • 30. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                                                                    JoeyJoeC Level 1

                                                                    I know this sounds crazy, but I couldn't work out how to create a new layer otherwise I probably would have done that.

                                                                     

                                                                    I can see that I have not used everything as I should have. Although, exporting to a PDF works fine, everything displays fine so it should be OK. This is a web brochure anyway, which will eventually be rendered into flipping book. As long as that works, it should be fine.


                                                                    I have been using columns for the text, Just didn't have them showing in the images.

                                                                     

                                                                    • 31. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                                                                      Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                                                      The photo is on the normal page and there exists only a single layer. Because the photo was created later than the circle it will remain above the stacking order. Everything as it should be.

                                                                      • 32. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                                                                        Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                                                        What I see ist that all the different master are completely independent. You should set up one parental master, and all variations should be children to this, so if you make changes on the father it will come through to the children.

                                                                        But this does not mean that you have to override any item. The colors might be overridden on each child, but the text not as it can be done with text variables.

                                                                        What you are doing so it will cost a lot more time as it should. I think a brochure with about 100 pages could be designed in one single 8-hour-day, when text and images are given.

                                                                        The method here is wrong. The guy should have visited a one-day-basic-training on InDesign.

                                                                        • 33. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                                                                          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                                          This has nothing to do with hierarchical masters, and the photo is NOT on the document page, it's on the master.

                                                                           

                                                                          That there are better ways to construct this document is not in the least bit relevant.

                                                                          • 34. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                                                                            Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

                                                                            JoeyJoeC wrote:

                                                                             

                                                                            I know this sounds crazy, but I couldn't work out how to create a new layer otherwise I probably would have done that.

                                                                            There's a button at the bottom of the layers panel, just as there is in Photoshop, and you can drag the layers around to reorder. The fast way to move things to a new layer is to select them, then open the layers pnael and drag the little highlighted square next to the layer name to the new layer.

                                                                            • 35. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                                                                              JoeyJoeC Level 1

                                                                              Thanks Peter.

                                                                               

                                                                              Just to clarify,

                                                                               

                                                                              Didn't know anything about text variables before or the library, so I just left the text on the masters to make it easy to edit them later on.

                                                                               

                                                                              The main reason why every destination is on a separate master is because the client isn't sure on the colours yet, they might want to change them, so instead of changing them on 300 pages, it would be easier to change them only 18 times for the masters.

                                                                               

                                                                              I knew about using child masters, but thought as I would have to override all the text and images anyway, then I might as well not bother with that.

                                                                               

                                                                              I've learnt for next time. I have 3 more days to finish this without worrying about the text. So I guess for now I should just crack on with it as it is. I will leave the first 30 pages as they are, and perhaps make the adjustments to the rest of the masters. If I get time, I will correct the ones in the beginning.

                                                                               

                                                                              Thanks for your help guys.

                                                                              • 36. Re: Can't override item on opposite page
                                                                                JoeyJoeC Level 1

                                                                                You may be happy for me to know that I somehow accidently deleted all but one of the master templates without noticing and saved over it.

                                                                                 

                                                                                So decided to start again! Made the following changes:

                                                                                 

                                                                                • Master template now only contains main elements, does not contain any images or text
                                                                                • Using libraries to hold the image layouts, to make it easier to choose the layout for the hotel, instead of copy and paste!
                                                                                • Sorted out the columns (Did actually do this before, but some reason the column count reset back to 1. 
                                                                                • Everything on layers! The background layer will stay locked to stop issues with that.
                                                                                • Learnt about using the gap tool to manage the images better
                                                                                • Learnt about colour management - although this is only a web brochure so not vital
                                                                                • Keeping backups.

                                                                                 

                                                                                Thanks guys for your help! I'll keep watching the tutorials.