12 Replies Latest reply on Sep 23, 2016 2:40 AM by Tomy-rex

    HELP: Inner Bleed but "Facing Pages" spread

    KeeperoftheGate Level 1

      My printing company wants inner bleed on the gutterline, but I set up my 64 document as "Facing Pages".  It appears to be impossible to allow bleed that isn't from the opposite half of the spread (and thus not even the correct opposite page).

       

      When I add Inner Bleed on Export, it takes a piece of the other page.

      I tried "Allow Pages to Shuffle" and tried splitting them, it has no effect because the Master's mystery blank page still sits on the other half of the "1 page" "spread", thus still looking like and exporting as 2 pages.  Thus the same effect on export remains.

       

      I've read other discussion threads on this matter (asian book of 257 pages, etc.), and the above solution, the only offered one, is not working for my document.

      IF perhaps I could "shuffle" and "Split" my MASTERS it would work, but they seem inseparable.

       

      Adobe, what were you thinking!?

       

      John

       

      p.s. Please don't say "they don't need it".  When your printer says "We need it", they at least THINK they do, and, as the saying goes "perception is reality".

       

      p.s.e. Sorry no pic, if you know what i'm talking about, then you know what I'm talking about; and I'm flush out of time (3 hours spent wrestling with this) to try to export screenshots tonight.

        • 1. Re: HELP: Inner Bleed but "Facing Pages" spread
          rajsre Adobe Employee

          When you say you have shuffled the pages, that means you have no cross-over page items on facing page layout on those shuffled pages. So, in imposition why do you need a "bleed" in strict sense? Are you just looking for "spacing" between the facing pages on imposing?

           

          ID Print Booklet is not for high end offset print imposition, but referring to it for convenience of describing:

          Print Booklet (when your option is Perfect for example) distinguishes between "bleed" and "spacing". Do you have similar settings in the printer/imposition utility you are using? If you have, could you please try using "spacing" instead of "bleed"?

           

          -rajan

          • 2. Re: HELP: Inner Bleed but "Facing Pages" spread
            KeeperoftheGate Level 1

            A bit to new to this to state I understand everything you just said.  Not familiar with "imposition".

            By "printer" i mean: Manufacturer/Publisher of the item, not my attached hardware.

            • 3. Re: HELP: Inner Bleed but "Facing Pages" spread
              rajsre Adobe Employee

              Hi John,

              "Imposition" is the rearrangement/shuffle of your layout pages for specific offset printing requirement, say 4 pages, 8 pages, 16 pages or 32 pages together on one sheet of paper. The rearranged/shuffled formation will vary depending on the form category.

               

              But if you are not doing anything of that sort: Let me explain how ID interprets "inside bleed" for simple spread printing, and how that can be overridden. I am able to explain this only with the utility already available within InDesign, the Print Booklet utility.

               

              - With facing page document opened, go to File > Print Booklet

              - Select 2-up Perfect Bound

               

              Now you see two value fields: "space between" and "bleed between". You can override all document bleed settings and make fresh settings here depending on the binding requirements.

              1. You use "space between" when you just want to give space between pages when printed, what the printer is asking for in binding requirements

              2. You use "bleed between" when you actually want to print that much extra area without any white space left between pages

              3. You also can have a combination of both: print some area as bleed and leave the rest as blank (white space), in which case your "space" will be higher than the "bleedx2".

               

              In case of (2) and (3), InDesign is going to print some extra area as bleed and that extra print area is taken from adjacent facing pages. This extra area of print is supposed to hide into the binding, and that is why the inside bleed is used for.

              -rajan

              • 4. Re: HELP: Inner Bleed but "Facing Pages" spread
                tman69 Level 3

                how is this 'book' binding?

                 

                the only way that one would need bleed on the gutterline is if it is wire-o (or similar) binding--all other types of book binding--saddle stitch, perfect bound and case bound would never require 'bleed' at/on the gutter (why is there a gutter?).

                are you having this done at 'books-r-us' or some such oddball printing establishment??

                 

                you said..."My printing company wants inner bleed on the gutterline..."  and  "When I add Inner Bleed on Export, it takes a piece of the other page"

                the piece of the 'other page' IS bleed!

                 

                FYI--I work for a high end printing company--we do all sorts of books--and we never need bleed on the binding edge except for wire-o binding.

                • 5. Re: HELP: Inner Bleed but "Facing Pages" spread
                  Migintosh Level 4

                  In case you are asking for the definition of the word "imposition," it's what is done to place pages into "printer's spreads" (as opposed to "reader's spreads, which you have when you compose the book in InDesign). In short, if you pull the staple out of a magazine and see that the first page and last page are printed on the same sheet of paper (first on the right, last on the left) and on the opposite side of that sheet are the second (on the left) and the second-to-last) to it's right). That's what imposition means, and it's normally not something that the composer of the book is asked to do because it requires choices that affect production that only the production people will know, and the composer would have no way of knowing.

                   

                  Most bindings you see are saddle-stitch or perfect-bound, and you would probably not notice if the pages met at the spine, fell just short of the spine or had some crossover, because the spines are all tucked together. Where you would want bleed at the spine are spiral or wire bound books, where the pages aren't connected at the spine, but separated by the coil, comb or what ever is holding it together. That's why most people think it doesn't matter with perfect or saddle.

                   

                  The method you have read about will turn this:

                  Screen Shot 2014-08-01 at 12.47.17 AM.png

                  …into this:

                  Screen Shot 2014-08-01 at 12.47.43 AM.png

                  I think the problem you are having is that when master-page items are set to bleed off of the page boundaries, master-page items are "sticking" to the pages that they shared a spread with, like this:

                  Screen Shot 2014-08-01 at 12.48.19 AM.png

                  One way to fix this is to leave the splitting of spreads until the very last step, after you are sure there are no more changes to the layout. Then, split the pages on a copy, and if you need to go back and tweak something for the second edition, go back to the un-separated original copy. You can override the master-page items (either individually, by Command-Shift clicking on the item on the document page, or all together, by selecting the document-page icons and selecting Override All Master Page Items from the fly-out menu), and then remove the master-page items from the pasteboards where they don't belong. It's a bit of a chore, but it gets you out of this situation, leaving you with this:

                  Screen Shot 2014-08-01 at 12.51.36 AM.png

                  When you export to PDF, you can have this:

                  Screen Shot 2014-08-01 at 12.58.46 AM.png

                  …and the printers can impose the individual pages with bleed if that's what they need.

                  1 person found this helpful
                  • 6. Re: HELP: Inner Bleed but "Facing Pages" spread
                    Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                    If it is not a wire-O-binding the inner bleed does not matter. Some print companies want only to have symetric bleed, but it des not bother if or if not content from the other page is contained. If it is a normal binding, don't bother with the inside bleed. Export it as single pages PDF according to the specification of the printer.

                    • 7. Re: HELP: Inner Bleed but "Facing Pages" spread
                      KeeperoftheGate Level 1

                      Thanks 1,000 to everyone.  Especially Sir Migintosh.  That was EXACTLY my problem.  I marked Migintosh's answer as "correct", thank you, very much.

                       

                      I have since sent them the document without putting in the work you mentioned though because it IS saddle stitched, and told them what ya'll said, and "signed off on having imperfect bleed". : P  To do the above, I'd have to re-edit the background Master Images to be big enough for inner bleed to begin with.  It's a 64 page doc, and doing that for all the Masters, then cleaning up all the opposite 'pages' would be horriffic, and I'm ready to be done with it.  I'd rather a potentially imperfect document at this point than the stress of fixing it over the weekend.  No, it's party time.  Quite literally.

                       

                      Regarding the general insults to the printing company, it's a game manufacturing company, as this is our board game's manual.  They make manuals, but sometimes they make it complicated as well.  It, like others have said, is amazing that Adobe InDesign doesn't have an easy fix for this in the export options, even if it theoretically should never be needed.

                       

                      Thanks again!

                       

                      John

                      • 8. Re: HELP: Inner Bleed but "Facing Pages" spread
                        rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        amazing that Adobe InDesign doesn't have an easy fix for this in the export options, even if it theoretically should never be needed.

                         

                        That's because there isn't a fix. If a photograph stops on the inside edge where would the bleed come from? It would be the same as stopping the outside edge of the photo on the trim and expecting ID to come up with a bleed.

                        • 9. Re: HELP: Inner Bleed but "Facing Pages" spread
                          Tomy-rex Level 1

                          Heyo all,

                           

                          hope no one reminds me resurrecting this rather old (but still very relevant) post. 

                           

                          I want to know how Migintosh split his pages in the last screenshot he showed - I've been searching for the solution for the past hour but I may be looking in the wrong place, or else it's just that I'm new to InDy...

                           

                          By unchecking "facing pages" in document setup, I can view pages individually, however, this results in the left side of the master page being used for all spreads - there doesn't seem to be any right hand side pages!  Do I have to just create master pages for both right and left or is there a more logical solution?

                           

                          Apologies if it's a dumb question, but I thought it would be quicker to ask the question then spend another hour or so trying to find out.

                           

                          Many thanks in advance!

                          • 11. Re: HELP: Inner Bleed but "Facing Pages" spread
                            Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                            I have found an easier way. Select a page with the page tool and move it down. Very fast and not much work.

                            Screenshot 2016-09-22 18.42.13.png

                            1 person found this helpful
                            • 12. Re: HELP: Inner Bleed but "Facing Pages" spread
                              Tomy-rex Level 1

                              Thanks Peter and Willi.  Both ways work really well and I have the option of trying out both methods and seeing what works best!

                               

                              Thanks for your time.