16 Replies Latest reply on Aug 19, 2014 4:35 PM by rob day

    Ink limit

    Elduderino99 Level 1

      In Photoshop I have applied a 230% newspaper colour profile to an image, see attached settings.

      Once I place this image in InDesign, InDesign output preview still displays that the image is still using more than 230% ink!

       

      Please help. I have checked that the placed image in InDesign is using the profile.

      Screen Shot 2014-08-19 at 3.47.47 pm.png

        • 1. Re: Ink limit
          Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

          You may have applied this profile to the image in Photoshop, but if the CMYK working space is a different profile than what the image is tagged with, a conversion may be made to that output CMYK working space, messing up your TAC.

           

                    - Dov

          • 2. Re: Ink limit
            Elduderino99 Level 1

            What should I set my CMYK working space to when working in Newspaper advertising?

            • 3. Re: Ink limit
              Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

              Leave that image in RGB, in its native color space. Save it as RGB-PSD, place that in InDesign.

              When the printer requires a CMYK, export a PDF/X-1a with the output color space they require.

              Better would be, to export a PDF/X-4 and let the APPE do the conversion to the output profile.

               

              Don't place CMYK images into InDesign.

              • 4. Re: Ink limit
                Elduderino99 Level 1

                @Willi What is an APPE? Will most Newspapers be able to supply an output profile? Most papers here in Australia spec sheets suggest you convert images in Photoshop to CMYK with a 230% ink limit applied as per my above screen shot.

                • 5. Re: Ink limit
                  Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                  APPE = Adobe PDF Print Engine (2)

                  I hope, you will send a PDF not a PSD file to your newspaper.

                  If they are placing such a file into InDesign, the best method would be to place also a PDF/X-4 with RGB images.

                  If they insist in CMYK images YOU can convert the whole add into their CMYK when you export a PDF, in most cases to PDF/X-1a, I would recommend always to use X-4 for placing into InDesign.

                   

                  You can turn on your proof preview in Photoshop and select your expected output color space.

                  Only in very few cases I would convert images into CMYK in Photoshop because it limits my flexibility and does not improve the quality. (I would do it with technical things like scren shots.)

                  • 6. Re: Ink limit
                    Danny Whitehead. Level 4

                    What do you mean when you say you've 'applied' the profile? Have you converted an RGB image to that profile, or assigned it to a CMYK image that had been converted to CMYK using a different profile? You should definitely be doing the former, but as Willi suggests, it would be better to keep the image RGB and do the conversion when you export the PDF from InDesign.

                     

                    Ideally, you'd get a proper CMYK profile from the publication, but if you're happy to use a profile generated using a 'Custom CMYK' setting in Photoshop (which appears to be what you're doing):

                     

                    Click OK on the dialog box in your screenshot.

                    From the list of CMYK profiles, 'Save CMYK' to generate an ICC profile in your preferred location.

                    Select this profile as your CMYK Working Space in Photoshop and InDesign, and assign it to your InDesign document.

                    When you export from InDesign, in the Output pane, for Colour Conversion, select 'Convert to Destination (Preserve Numbers).

                     

                    This is presuming you don't have any other CMYK elements in the InDesign document that are over the ink limit.

                    • 7. Re: Ink limit
                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      Please help. I have checked that the placed image in InDesign is using the profile.

                       

                      What should I set my CMYK working space to when working in Newspaper advertising?

                       

                      The ink limit is only enforced when you make a conversion to CMYK.

                       

                      If you place a Photoshop file with your Aus Newsprint profile embedded in an ID document with the default US SWOP Coated profile assigned, it will likely get converted to document's US SWOP profile on export or print—US SWOP allows 300%.

                       

                      Your ID document should also use the matching CMYK Newsprint profile, so there's not a conversion back to SWOP. The Working Space isn't necessarily the document's profile, you have to either assign (Edit>Assign Profiles...) or convert (Edit>Convert to Profiles...) to change a document's profile.

                       

                      Also, you might be better off using the newer generation US Newsprint (SNAP) profile rather than the legacy Photoshop Custom CMYK profiling. The legacy profiles are curved based and are not as accurate. SNAP has a 220 ink limit.

                      • 8. Re: Ink limit
                        Frans van der Geest (ACP) Adobe Community Professional

                        Most simple and correct workflow answer: leave all your original (bitmap) artwork in RGB (check if your RGB image has a correct RGB profile: Adobe RGB or most times sRGB). Place original RGB artwork in InDesign. At output (PDF) choose the PDF X/1a setting Output, Destination: choose your color icc profile with the 230% inklimit (the newspaper profile provided) and save the PDF.

                        PDF X/1a means you decide to which CMYK profile all RGB-artwork is rendered including inklimits. PDF X/4 leaves it to your printer to do this.

                         

                        If your Dutch is any good: I've made a blog and presentation you can download on 300% inklimit workflows that shows what happens with RGB, CMYK either with or without profiles:

                        F vd Geest DTP: Presentatie en PDF Kleurbeheer

                        • 9. Re: Ink limit
                          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          Most simple and correct workflow answer: leave all your original (bitmap) artwork in RGB

                           

                          The new conventional wisdom that everything should be left as RGB can be a good workflow especially if the document will be printed from multiple devices. But for single destinations where color matters there are cases where it becomes a problem, particularly for out-of-gamut or neutral images.

                           

                          With newsprint the gamut is smaller and becomes more of a problem, so converting everything using the same rendering intent with no post conversion corrections (100% cyan and yellow are not in the RGB gamut) might not produce the best color.

                           

                          So an image like this will be very difficult on newsprint:

                           

                          Screen Shot 2014-08-19 at 9.17.04 AM.png

                           

                          If I look at the conversion to SNAP using different Intents or Black Point Compensation I can get radically different separations.

                           

                          Screen Shot 2014-08-19 at 9.19.37 AM.png

                          Screen Shot 2014-08-19 at 9.19.50 AM.png

                          Screen Shot 2014-08-19 at 9.19.59 AM.png

                          Screen Shot 2014-08-19 at 9.20.11 AM.png

                          Screen Shot 2014-08-19 at 9.20.21 AM.png

                           

                          In addition I might want to run near 100% cyan in the sky to get the best blue, which I can get using the Absolute Colormetric in #1, but that ruins the sunflower, so I would be better off pushing the cyan percentage in the sky after the CMYK conversion.

                          • 10. Re: Ink limit
                            Frans van der Geest (ACP) Adobe Community Professional

                            Sure, as I said: the most 'simple answer is'.

                            Yours is the most detailed ;-)

                            Using Photoshop to do the most rendering and conversion is very wise if you know that there is one specific output for that image like newspaper; then go ahead and optimize, save as CMYK and make sure you do no CMYK to CMYK rendering in InDesign.

                            As I read the orginal question again, I'm sure your answer helps.

                            However: if you do not have one specific output and your document may be used as advertisement in both paper and magazine as well as... etc. then a RGB workflow works best. At Sanoma publishers (one of the largest publisher of magazines in Europe!) the rule is RGB-workflow and output profiles.

                            • 11. Re: Ink limit
                              Frans van der Geest (ACP) Adobe Community Professional

                              Aad, by the way Rob, looking at your screenshots: color manage settings not syncronized? :-)

                              • 12. Re: Ink limit
                                Danny Whitehead. Level 4

                                Just changing Intent would leave you unsynchronized temporarily.

                                • 13. Re: Ink limit
                                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  And synchronization only affects the apps' current Color Settings, not existing documents. If I synchronize to US Newsprint SNAP but my documents have US SWOP assigned, the synchronization has no affect on those US SWOP assigned documents.

                                  • 14. Re: Ink limit
                                    Elduderino99 Level 1

                                    Thanks everyone.

                                     

                                    Just in RGB workflow--does this mean you are also mixing colours in the swatch palette as RGB?

                                     

                                    I'm also used to placing RGB images in and then letting Indesign convert to the appropriate target. Mostly being coated sheetfed. But common practice I was taught with Newspapers was to place an ready Cmyk'ed with its ink limit already reduced to 230% and the rest of the newspaper suggested colour profile attached. Doing this always worked until now. The issue is that Indesign seems to ignore the images profile (even though I can confirm it there) by displaying above 230% when I switch to output preview mode.

                                     

                                    Sent from my iPhone

                                    • 15. Re: Ink limit
                                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      The issue is that Indesign seems to ignore the images profile (even though I can confirm it there) by displaying above 230% when I switch to output preview mode.

                                       

                                      If ID's Separation Preview panel and Photoshop's Output panel are displaying different output numbers for CMYK objects then there has to be a profile conflict somewhere. What is the ID document's assigned profile—the profile showing under View>Proof Setup>Document CMYK? The document's assigned profile might be different than the Color Settings' CMYK profile. When you select the problem image what profile is showing in the Links panel Link Info?

                                      • 16. Re: Ink limit
                                        rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                        One thing to note about using the legacy CMYK setup in Photoshop; it is not available in ID.

                                         

                                        If you want to use a legacy setup profile in both Photoshop and ID, you have to save the Photoshop setup as an icc profile to one of your profiles folders: Color Settings>CMYK>Save CMYK. When you do that it should be available as a profile in ID and can be assigned to your document and you can use matching profiles.

                                         

                                        But again I think you might be better off using a newer generation profile like US Newsprint SNAP.