23 Replies Latest reply on Aug 27, 2014 8:50 AM by rob day

    How do you bleed a photo across a book spine with a "no print" gutter?

    Reaching4TheStarz

      I'm laying-out a coffee table book (8 x 10) that includes a lot of 2-page photo spreads. I set the top/bottom/outside bleeds to .125. So no issue there. But how do I handle the inside area closest to the spine/gutter? There is a .125 "no print" white gutter strip required. I need the photo to split cleanly between the two pages so that the left side matches perfectly with the right side when the pages are bound. (The inner .125 is used for adhesive in the binding process.)

        • 1. Re: How do you bleed a photo across a book spine with a "no print" gutter?
          Peter Spier Most Valuable Participant (Moderator)

          There's a thread with this exact discussion from two or three weeks ago. It will come up better in a Google search than a forum search, I expect.

          • 4. Re: How do you bleed a photo across a book spine with a "no print" gutter?
            Reaching4TheStarz Level 1

            Hi Rob! Thanks for providing the link to the other thread. I read through it and it's admittedly quite confusing - running initially from a one-page spine bleed and then, later, to a crossover bleed. It's difficult to keep track of what's what. lol HOWEVER, your post caught my full attention since what you did with the cloud image is exactly the dilemma I'm dealing with. Can you provide step-by-step instructions on how to set up and carry out the solution? I think I get it, but I'm not 100% certain. I realize it's a pain for you, but you'd certainly have my deepest gratitude. Plus, I'm sure there are a LOT of people out there using Ingram, Lulu, CreateSpace, etc. who would benefit from it. If you'd like, we can chat directly. My email is TrnPnt@Comcast.net Thanks so much! - Steve

            • 5. Re: How do you bleed a photo across a book spine with a "no print" gutter?
              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              The step-by-step is in #20 and I provided a link to a zip archive with the example files in #22.

               

              I think you should at least complain to Ingram. They should be able add the extra white space in their imposition process—a bleed should never be part of the document trim.

              • 6. Re: How do you bleed a photo across a book spine with a "no print" gutter?
                Reaching4TheStarz Level 1

                Hi Rob!

                 

                Thanks so much for writing. I really appreciate it.

                 

                I looked at your materials and it seems what you did is create an image frame on each of the facing pages. They bleed .125 on the top/bottom/outside, but end .125 inside the gutter. Correct so far?

                 

                And then it appears you simply placed the same image twice, once in each image frame.

                 

                Okay, I can see how that would work if the image is at full scale and covers the entire two spreads. But it doesn't help where the image is scaled down to fit a space within the page and happens to also crossover onto the other page. Ditto if there is a full bleed PMS screen behind it that covers both pages. It gets tedious pretty quick. (I've attached a PDF of what I'm dealing with.)

                 

                Do you have any suggestions? If not, I guess I'm going to have to manually duplicate the image along the gutter (minus .125) and then place it on the other page, carefully aligning them so they'll be a perfect match after the two sides of the gutter are glued together.

                 

                Steve

                • 7. Re: How do you bleed a photo across a book spine with a "no print" gutter?
                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  I looked at your materials and it seems what you did is create an image frame on each of the facing pages. They bleed .125 on the top/bottom/outside, but end .125 inside the gutter. Correct so far?

                   

                  No, there are actually 2 InDesign Files, Layout.indd and Export.indd. The Layout pages are placed on the corresponding Export pages. The Export layout has the gap created in the master spread and you would edit the layout version then simply update the Export version. You can place InDesign files in InDesign files.

                   

                  So here I've added some crossover text. Export on the left Layout on the right:

                   

                  Screen Shot 2014-08-26 at 6.47.46 AM.png

                   

                  Screen Shot 2014-08-26 at 7.28.15 AM.png

                   

                  Here are the sample files updated:

                   

                  http://www.zenodesign.com/forum/IngramTest2.zip

                   

                  Again the printer shouldn't be forcing you into this kludge—you should never have to build a bleed into a document. The only exception might be Wire-O where the inside edge actually gets trimmed.

                   

                  Any imposition software I've used lets me set a gap plus creep during the imposition. They should be asking for no interior bleed and adding the white glue space in the imposition.

                  • 8. Re: How do you bleed a photo across a book spine with a "no print" gutter?
                    Reaching4TheStarz Level 1

                    Hi Rob

                    Thank you for your help and patience. I really appreciate it. I know you must get frustrated at times with people like me.

                    I studied the files you sent. It seems you did all your original pasteup in the “Layout.indd” using a very simple A-Master page that essentially just had the bleed identified. You dropped the photos and text into place on the actual document page(s).

                    Sooooo, when you were done with the layout, did you create a duplicate of the file and rename it “Export.indd?” I noticed in that version, you then created and apparently applied a more complex Master page, this time including two image blocks with the gutter strip defined. It seems you used that Master to “force” (for the lack of a better word) the gutter strip into place.

                    Lemme stop there and make sure I’m right/wrong with this assumption, rather than continue down the road and make more of a mess.

                    Also, you should probably know I’m dealing with 17 different masters with this project. Fortunately, only six deal with crossover bleeds. I’ve attached a sample of the Section Opener Master that was used with the image I sent you yesterday.

                    If you find yourself pulling your hair out, perhaps it might be easier to chat for a few minutes. It’s quicker and allows follow-on questions to be addressed. If you’re amenable to that, I’d be happy to call you. After all, this is my problem, not yours. You shouldn’t have to pay for the call.

                    Thanks!

                    Steve

                    • 9. Re: How do you bleed a photo across a book spine with a "no print" gutter?
                      Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      Reaching4TheStarz wrote:

                       

                      I'm laying-out a coffee table book (8 x 10) that includes a lot of 2-page photo spreads. I set the top/bottom/outside bleeds to .125. So no issue there. But how do I handle the inside area closest to the spine/gutter? There is a .125 "no print" white gutter strip required. I need the photo to split cleanly between the two pages so that the left side matches perfectly with the right side when the pages are bound. (The inner .125 is used for adhesive in the binding process.)

                      I haven't read the comments others have made.

                       

                      But there's no need to worry about it - the printers ensure they line up correctly.

                       

                      Place your photo on the spread and ensure it crosses the spine, the printers do the rest.

                      • 10. Re: How do you bleed a photo across a book spine with a "no print" gutter?
                        rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        Sooooo, when you were done with the layout, did you create a duplicate of the file and rename it “Export.indd?” I noticed in that version, you then created and apparently applied a more complex Master page, this time including two image blocks with the gutter strip defined. It seems you used that Master to “force” (for the lack of a better word) the gutter strip into place.

                         

                        I wouldn't duplicate the layout—just make a new document with the same height, the same width plus .125" for the white strip, same bleed, same color settings, and same page count. Then make one Master spread with the frames for the layout pages. You can have as many masters, styles, colors etc. in the Layout version—they aren't needed in the export version.

                        • 11. Re: How do you bleed a photo across a book spine with a "no print" gutter?
                          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                          Place your photo on the spread and ensure it crosses the spine, the printers do the rest.

                           

                          Eugene, you are right Steve shouldn't have to do anything. Ingram is requiring the extra .125" white space, which creates the crossover problem. Their workflow is out of the 90s—they also require all CMYK but don't provide a destination profile.

                          • 12. Re: How do you bleed a photo across a book spine with a "no print" gutter?
                            Reaching4TheStarz Level 1

                            Ah, how do I apply the new "empty" document master pages to the original layout document? Some type of merging has to happen here. That's new to me…I didn't know you could do that. The "how to do it" is the piece I'm missing.

                            • 13. Re: How do you bleed a photo across a book spine with a "no print" gutter?
                              rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              On other thing when you place the pages check Show Options in the Place dialog and you'll get this:

                               

                              Screen Shot 2014-08-26 at 11.42.36 AM.png

                              Make sure Crop to is set to Bleed bounding box and your export MP frames include a bleed. You have to place the pages one at a time.

                              • 14. Re: How do you bleed a photo across a book spine with a "no print" gutter?
                                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                Ah, how do I apply the new "empty" document master pages to the original layout document? Some type of merging has to happen here.

                                 

                                There's no merging. You are placing the Layout pages on the Export pages, which has the extra .125" built into the page. You edit in the Layout document and when you are done open the Export document, update the links, and export without an inside bleed (the white bleed strip is part of the Export page). Think of the paced ID pages as a placed image or PDF—works the same way.

                                • 15. Re: How do you bleed a photo across a book spine with a "no print" gutter?
                                  Reaching4TheStarz Level 1

                                  Ok. There's the key point that's been alluding me: I've never pasted one indd file into another.

                                   

                                  So what are the steps? 1) Open document. 2) Click on FILE and "Paste" and identify file. 3) Then….?

                                  • 16. Re: How do you bleed a photo across a book spine with a "no print" gutter?
                                    Reaching4TheStarz Level 1

                                    I just did a test run. It seems to work, but the placed Layout.indd pages aren't meeting the .125 bleed in the new document. They're off 1/6 to 1/32 inches off on the bottom.

                                     

                                    Frankly, between this new problem and the fact that I have to place each page separately into the Export.indd document for every single page (200+), I'm thinking it might be just easier to cut the images on the crossover spreads and align them myself on either side of the gutter strip. That should work, plus it's a lot faster and easier. Do you foresee any problems with that approach?

                                    • 17. Re: How do you bleed a photo across a book spine with a "no print" gutter?
                                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                      So what are the steps

                                      You have to place not paste.

                                      but the placed Layout.indd pages aren't meeting the .125 bleed in the new document.

                                      You don't have to release the master page frame, just choose the page in the Place dialog, click Ok and that should give you a loaded cursor, click anywhere on the MP frame to place

                                      Do you foresee any problems with that approach?.

                                      It makes it difficult to scale and reposition the crossover once it is split.

                                       

                                      200 pages is a lot. I would at least ask Ingram how they expect you to handle a crossover.

                                      • 18. Re: How do you bleed a photo across a book spine with a "no print" gutter?
                                        Reaching4TheStarz Level 1

                                        Thanks so much Rob! The placed Layout.indd pages still aren't matching up to the Export.indd page. They're "off" on the inside by 1/16 to almost 1/8 inch, leaving noticeable space between the trim and bleed lines. That won't fly with Ingram. (Speaking of which, I did file a Request with them yesterday about handling a crossover. Still awaiting a reply.)

                                         

                                        I just did a test using the old-fashioned "split" and "paste" technique. I imported the image twice, split one and matched-up the other side. Then I positioned them .125 on either side of the gutter. It was quick and easy. I exported it and it seems to work. I'm leaning in that direction now...

                                        • 19. Re: How do you bleed a photo across a book spine with a "no print" gutter?
                                          rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                          When you direct select the placed page are the x, y coordinates 0,0 in Transform when upper left of the icon is selected?

                                           

                                          Screen Shot 2014-08-26 at 3.58.39 PM.png

                                           

                                          If you don't need adjustment on the crossovers after they are split then that's the way to go

                                          • 20. Re: How do you bleed a photo across a book spine with a "no print" gutter?
                                            Reaching4TheStarz Level 1

                                            Hi Rob

                                             

                                            I didn't notice the x/y coordinates in Transform. It's a bit late since I trashed the "test sample" I was playing with. The placed pages were consistently short by 1/6 to 1/8 inch. I gave up.

                                             

                                            The "splitting-up" tactic seems to be working. Although I've noticed traces of a light blue dotted line on some pages along the trim line. I can't see them in the layout, only when I Export the document into PDF. Any idea what that's all about? lol

                                             

                                            I'm toasting you with a glass of wine! Thanks for your help, expertise and patience.

                                             

                                            Best wishes

                                            Steve

                                            • 21. Re: How do you bleed a photo across a book spine with a "no print" gutter?
                                              Reaching4TheStarz Level 1

                                              Hi Rob

                                               

                                              I think this will be my last question. I spent about 3 hours tonight playing with the solution you originally posed. Essentially you were recommending that:

                                               

                                              Step 1: People finish the layout of their document to their satisfaction, then close it and,

                                              Step 2: Open up a brand new document with the same specs (page size, page numbers, etc.), except that you set the inside margin to .125 and the inside bleed to 0.

                                              Step 3: Then you set up the master page for that new document, creating an image frame that covers the bleed to the inside margin on both spread pages.

                                              Step 4: For each page, Click on "Place" and select your original document. Make sure you also click on "Setting Options"

                                              Step 5: Select the page you want to import, and set the option to "Bleed bounding box"

                                              Step 6: Then click anywhere on the page (inside the frame box) where you want the page image to be inserted.

                                              Step 7: Repeat for each page, until the document is done.

                                              Step 8: Export the document to PDF for printing.

                                               

                                              I will ask you this: I noticed that you can't depend on the computer to place the imported page accurately. I repeatedly found myself measuring and tweaking the imported image left or right anywhere from 1-5 mm to make it align correctly. I picked-up on that issue when I exported to PDF. Easily solved, but admittedly time consuming (especially if you are dealing with a very large document). Have you encountered this?

                                               

                                              Regardless, thank you for your help with this. I really appreciate it, and I hope this string will help a lot of other people who are using Ingram and need to figure out how to do a crossover bleed.

                                               

                                              Steve

                                              • 22. Re: How do you bleed a photo across a book spine with a "no print" gutter?
                                                rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                Step 2: Open up a brand new document with the same specs (page size, page numbers, etc.), except that you set the inside margin to .125 and the inside bleed to 0.

                                                 

                                                No, the export document needs to have an 1/8" added to the width—you are building the bleed into the document. If the layout trim is 8.5x11 the export doc would be 8.625x11

                                                 

                                                I would only do this if Ingram is your only print alternative and you have complained. Increasing the trim size to accommodate a bleed is not standard practice. Imposition should be the responsibility of the printer not the designer.

                                                • 23. Re: How do you bleed a photo across a book spine with a "no print" gutter?
                                                  rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                  The other way to do this would be to add the extra .125" in AcrobatPro via Set Page Boxes. It's not an intuitive interface but it can be done. The downside is you'll have to do it every time you export.

                                                   

                                                  I could only get it to work with 3 steps. There might be an easier way you could ask in the Acrobat forum.

                                                   

                                                  So my example layout is 8.5x11 and I expand all the page dimensions to 8.75x11 via Custom set to Center :

                                                   

                                                  Screen Shot 2014-08-27 at 10.40.33 AM.png

                                                   

                                                  Then I trimmed the extra 1/8" from the outside of the pages. First the odd pages right side:

                                                   

                                                  Screen Shot 2014-08-27 at 11.20.02 AM.png

                                                   

                                                  Then the even pages left side:

                                                   

                                                  Screen Shot 2014-08-27 at 11.20.48 AM.png

                                                  Which leaves .125" on the inside:

                                                   

                                                  Screen Shot 2014-08-27 at 11.49.13 AM.png