Camera Raw like interface for Premiere Pro CC

[mandurphy]

Hi Adobe

I'm a photographer and video producer looking for an easier way to grade and adjust the levels of my footage in Premiere.

The DynamicLink with SpeedGrade is really lovely and quick, but getting my head around the new SG interface and being able to squeeze the best results out of it is a real challenge. Recently I discovered that I can open video files in Photoshop CC and use the Adobe Camera Raw interface as an effect on the footage and apply colour and levels changes there. This has really opened up the grading process for me and coming from a stills background with several years of using Lightroom to process my photos, I find the Camera Raw interface much more intuitive. It has allowed me to get better results much faster than I was getting out of SpeedGrade. The only issue is the workflow and render time involved in getting the video from Premiere to Photoshop and then back again is drawn out and complex.

My questions are:

Is there a current effect or plugin that replicates the Camera Raw interface and feature set in Premiere Pro / SpeedGrade?

Is this a feature Adobe is looking to include in future updates of Premiere?

It maybe laziness on my behalf not taking the time to learn the interface of SpeedGrade, but I know Adobe is a responsive developer and that this feature would speed up the grading process and would really appeal to the DSLR community who use your products for both photos and videos production.

Thanks in advance

Dan

[signature with personal info removed by mod]PEC

[Jack Banatoni]

I would also like to see the same RAW interface implemented in Premiere Pro.  I've recently discovered you can use a RAW interface like Photoshop/Lightroom in After Effects for DNG footage.  Not as efficient of a workflow, but it's there if you need it.

Quick guide:

- In After Effects (I'm using CC 2014), select import file.  Find your series of .DNG files.  Select the first file in the sequence, check the "camera raw sequence" box under sequence options, then click import.

- The RAW interface will immediately pop-up.  Process your photo, then click OK.

- The footage is now a single clip in After Effects.

- To get back to RAW, select the clip and choose to Interpret Footage (right click or icon in project panel).  Select the More Options... button.  RAW will load again.

Hope this helps!  I was thrilled to find out the RAW interface was in After Effects, at least.

[Eyemo]

I couldn't agree more. I wish I could stuff the ballot box in support of Dan Murphy's request.

The addition of Camera Raw Filter to Premiere would be the most useful feature Adobe could bring to Premiere at this point. I don't believe it would greatly diminish the use of SpeedGrade (well, maybe it might for primary grading). I have to believe the reason it hasn't yet been added is because of some deeper issues than mere product differentiation.

In the meantime, perhaps we could push for the ability to extend the video-export options inside Photoshop CC, which already uses Adobe Media Encoder, yet restricts us to an H.264-based or an arbitrarily limited list of QuickTime codecs. We ought to be able to set up custom exports in AME and then call those from within Photoshop. I mean, exporting everything in QuickTime Animation (instead of, say ProRes or in the native format that we imported to PS) is aggravating and inexplicable.

[Kevin-Monahan]

Hi Eyemo,

Eyemo wrote:

The addition of Camera Raw Filter to Premiere would be the most useful feature Adobe could bring to Premiere at this point. I don't believe it would greatly diminish the use of SpeedGrade (well, maybe it might for primary grading). I have to believe the reason it hasn't yet been added is because of some deeper issues than mere product differentiation.

From what I've been told, Camera Raw files are too difficult to edit with, so it will probably not be implemented. Premiere Pro deals with raw video via source settings so a feature request to improve that rather than adding Camera Raw would probably an easier way to deal with this issue.

Eyemo wrote:

In the meantime, perhaps we could push for the ability to extend the video-export options inside Photoshop CC, which already uses Adobe Media Encoder, yet restricts us to an H.264-based or an arbitrarily limited list of QuickTime codecs. We ought to be able to set up custom exports in AME and then call those from within Photoshop. I mean, exporting everything in QuickTime Animation (instead of, say ProRes or in the native format that we imported to PS) is aggravating and inexplicable.

Feel free to let the Photoshop team know: http://adobe.ly/feature_request

Thanks,

Kevin

[Eyemo]

Thanks, Kevin. I took your suggestion and submitted a request for expanded AME export options in Photoshop to that team.

Just to clarify my point about Camera Raw in Premiere, I was not referring to editing raw files (i.e. CinemaDNG or camera native) but rather including a Camera Raw filter effect -- exactly (or close as possible) to the Camera Raw filter effect in Photoshop CC, which, as I'm sure you know, can be applied to any source material -- including JPEGs, individual layers and video files -- in that application.

I'd be satisfied if Premiere would simply open and put on the timeline a Photoshop video file that had the Camera Raw filter applied. And if you're getting the idea that people generally love the Camera Raw interface and function and *greatly* prefer it in many cases to the Simple Color Corrector and/or 3-way Color Corrector and Shadow/Highlights (to say nothing of SpeedGrade), I think that would be the right take-away.

[Martin_Matthias]

Yes, I would LOVE to see this feature, too! Actually I already do correct my Footage in ACR, but the way to do this is so complicated. I have to export every single clip to After Effects, render it out as a TIF-sequence and the re-import it via Camera-Raw... The possibilities that ACR gives, are so great, this plugin has to be implemented as an effect in Premiere Pro. And (for me) it would be no problem, if after the ACR-effect is applied, the timeline is not playable in realtime anymore. I do the edit first, then the color correction.

So, Adobe: please implement the ACR as an effect in Premiere Pro (and After Affects)!

EDIT:

I did a comparison of some footage I recently shot with my Nikon d800 in Paris. Having the ACR as a tool in Premiere would change the way I color correct my videos. Watch how strong it is, even with 8-bit, compressed footage:

Martin Matthias – Comparison

[Kevin-Monahan]

Hi Dan,

Camera raw will probably not be added to Premiere Pro because it generates files that are too difficult to edit with. In Premiere Pro you can adjust Source Settings. If that is not enough control, you can always import them to After Effects where you can use Camera Raw. Then, export files that are high quality, yet are still able to be edited. Sorry if this is not exactly what you wanted to hear. If you'd like more parameters to be added to Source Settings, feel free to make a feature request: http://adobe.ly/feature_request

Thanks,
Kevin

[mandurphy]

Hi Kevin..

Thanks for your reply.

My suggestion isn't really about having the ability to grade and then edit RAW footage in Premiere. 98% of the footage I shoot is in MOV H.264 content, not RAW video. My interest is having one single effects panel (or window) where I have the ability to adjust shadows, tint, contrast, white balance (I know, limited in non-raw), brightness, sharpness, clarity, vibrance, saturation, vignette, lens correction, etc, etc. Much like the feature set presented to us with Adobe Camera Raw. Most of these effects are available as separate effects within Premiere, with some being GPU accelerated. I'm keen to have them all in the one spot with a curves and sliders based interface similar to ACR/Lightroom. Even if I had to wait to render half res previews to watch the corrections in Premiere, it would be worth it. Hopefully this makes more sense.

For the odd occasion I work with raw footage from a RED, it would be nice to use ACR/Lightroom to do the grade there too, but not a deal breaker.

Also, How do bring my H.264 video files into After Effects and get the Camera Raw dialogue on them? I know how to do it with a folder of CR2 Canon raw stills, but not a video file.

Thanks again.

Dan

--

---------------------
Dan Murphy
Video Production & Photography
+61 0449 53 9797
www.mandurphy.net

[psychilles]

I'm looking for exactly that!

Love the simple interface of the camera raw filter.

[Kevin-Monahan]

Hi gang,

I was talking to the team about this and it's definitely possible to do what you want. I would urge you all to file feature requests to make sure that it gets the weight it deserves.

Thanks,
Kevin

[Eyemo]

Great! I just now did as you suggest and filed a feature request. Fellow "Camera Raw Filter" enthusiasts, the features request page is at:

https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

[Kevin-Monahan]

Nice!! Do it folks!

[Sijimo9]

I'd love to double that Camera RAW interface by itself is extremely handy!

I tried to love the SpeedGrade - after all it didn't work as good and simple as Camera RAW filter does!

Right now i'm using FilmConvert as a grading tool, it's the best out there, but still Camera RAW is better.

My effect chain setup is:

1. Reduce Noise (neat video plugin)

2. Correct Lens Distortion

3. Reduce Contrast (brightness-contrast filter)

4. Add some shadow/highlight details with Tiffen reFine or Sapphire Sharpen

5. Apply a LUT from my collection

6. Add finishing touches with FilmConvert plugin

So as you see, to get a good result i use six(!) plugins!

And i don't care about playback or rendering speed (Reduce Noise and reFine are very CPU/GPU intensive),

In 1080 25p this setup provides me around 3-5 frames per second. I can accept that!

The simplicity of Camera RAW is what we need.

Using this tool i can get what i want in seconds without any hassle of a huge plugin chain.

As i said, i don't care much about rendering time, since when i'm finished with color, i don't have to sit near the computer,

and can do other things in life.

A year ago i've tried "Advanced FrameServer" plugin to "Direct Link" my Premere timeline to Photoshop without rendering.

It worked ok, but when i had to cut my entire timeline back to clips in Photoshop - it was quite a horrible task

In conclusion i just have to say:

Adobe, PLEASE simply implement Camera RAW as effect to Premiere Pro and After Effects! ASAP!

[Kevin-Monahan]

Hi Sijimo9,

Did you fill out a feature request yet? Because that's the best way to let the team know. A post here probably won't do as much good.

Thanks,
Kevin

[R Neil Haugen]

I've come from the still background also ... nearly 40 years since we opened the doors, it's been our entire living all that time. And yes, spent MANY hours in Lightroom, which has developed a lovely way to work files. That said ...

SpeedGrade took me by surprise for a while ... the help files are ... well, not help; the manual is ... not help; and the interface seems SO different. I did spend the time to go through the books by von Hurkaman and another one (brain freeze .. what was that ... ) and "took" some lynda-dot-com classes. Learned both what happens in footage usage, especially for playback purposes whether tv, broadcast, or web use ... and found it is really truly a different thing to produce than still images.There are actually reasons why some of the things and effects are so different. BUT ... once you get a glimmer of this, things start making sense ... and ...

Speedgrade can do things so fast that are so amazing ... but they're different things to make what seems to be the same look. Except ... they work in video forms. Among other things, until you know what a vector & parade scope show, and how to use them as they are far better and faster than yours eyes at showing what's going on ... you are simply floundering in video. Learn those two tools if nothing else, and your work will be faster, more accurate, and more dramatic or subtle depending on what you want it to be.

If you've got "the suite" I do suggest taking another look at it ... and especially, using the Direct Link method can change one's entire workflow. Speedgrade has actually become my favorite program to just sit and ... well, realistically, play in. So fascinating what I can do there, and comparatively (to a full-time colorist)  I'm a complete noob.

Neil

[Sijimo9]

Yes, filled the request form yesterday. It's my third request for Camera RAW type of controls inside Premiere.

The first request came even before SpeedGrade was even released as Adobe product.

So i don't generally trust in this request form

I know that SpeedGrade is not bad. And it has cool features (like color matching). But i don't like the interface. Why it had to be so different in the first place? Premiere and After Effects use the same logic of things, while SpeedGrade feels like completely another program. (and it is - from another developer)

The initial release of SpeedGrade was horrible. The idea to render everything to DPX and open in SpeedGrade without direct link was the great spoiler of a first impression. Right now i can get a significantly better look inside Premiere, simply because

third party plugins do the job better.

The only thing that kinda bothers me is that the effect chain is so huge, and you have to scroll down a couple of pages to have access to all parameters. In addition i don't get why Premiere recalculates all effects in the chain if only a top (last) effect is changed? This is kinda un-wise. After Effects, for instance, caches all effect layers and adjustments generally happen more fluid. In Premiere the only way that i've found to disable re-calculation is to Nest a sequence with all the heavy stuff, and place mastering effect (like FilmConvert) on top of it.

So, in conclusion - Yes, i do have an option to avoid SpeedGrade and Camera RAW, but i would prefer using Camera RAW in Premiere for everything. I would even trade all built-in effects in like Three-Way color, ProcAmp, Fast Color, Luma Corrector, Levels, Shadow/Highlight and all others for simply one effect.

And it is.... Camera RAW

P.S.

I just guess... why it was added to Photoshop as "effect" recently? Video world is not different from photo, we need it too!

[R Neil Haugen]

The horrid part of SpeedGrade is the abysmal lack of GOOD info on how to use it. Actually, with a bit of work in learning the blame thing, you can do stuff better & faster in Sg than PrPro ... but it is such a pain to find USEFUL stuff about how to do things that a ton of people share your opinion. As to the interface, it is rather ... minimalist? ... to the point of being totally opaque on first glance. Well, by third glance it's only mostly nearly totally opaque. Sigh.

I've been involved with it enough to have some understanding of how it came to be and why the interface is at it is ... which is to say, designed for experienced professional grader/colorists who will use fancy keyboards, control surfaces and also know their keyboard shorts so they're not going to use a menu system hardly at all. But it sure makes coming into it from any of the more "regular" Adobe products a significant "What the ??????????". And I've been in discussions here and elsewhere and watched VERY experienced people at using it surprise another serious user by noting how they get to "X" effect or do "Y" ... completely differently, one didn't know the other method was even possible. That's how ... opaque ... the program can be.

All that said, even a relative noob like me can go from stills shooting LOVING the Lightroom interface to finding SpeedGrade the most ... well, simply enjoyable ... software on my machine. I started back in the "CS6" versions with that whole ship out & import thing ... was a pain. Always had a blip in every job. So I did most grading work in PrPro. After the Direct Link became usable, and learning a bit more about Speedgrade ... good criminy, it's so much easier for me to use for grading than PrPro.

Neil

[Eyemo]

All the above comments re: SpeedGrade's good/bad qualities are valid but I think we can all agree that if -- as  Kevin has said -- it's possible to bring the Camera Raw filter effect to Premiere Pro then we can and should support that. This isn't a zero-sum issue. Premiere won't have to drop other image-correction options and Adobe will certainly keep improving and supporting SpeedGrade. Remember, the exact functionality we want is available right now in Photoshop and it works on video as well as stills there. This is a case where we *can* get it all if we convince the Premiere team that enough demand exists for them to devote resources to it. So tell your friends who use Premiere to add their support for Camera Raw Effect in Premiere at: https://www.adobe.com/cfusion/mmform/index.cfm?name=wishform

[R Neil Haugen]

Wouldn't mind the addition myself at all ... actually, I've been pushing the Sg team to include say the HSL section out of Lr ...  

Neil

[Sijimo9]

I can agree that SpeedGrade is kind of interesting. But it's for "grading".

What we need is more of the "quick correction", where we "easy fix" (normalize) things for any video.

I would discard plugins like Fast Color Corrector and Three Way Color Corrector and add Camera RAW instead.

And yes, it all works RIGHT NOW with video files in Photoshop. So why not Premiere?

If to speak more about grading, i can say that i like Davinci Resolve more than SpeedGrade,

but it lacks Direct Link, so i'm not going to use it

[R Neil Haugen]

As to quick corrections, a bit of experience in Sg and wow ... what you can do quickly. At first, SpeedGrade ticked me off, couldn't do squat in it. After a bit of learning about how to use scopes & what the goal is in video (very different than stills) ... and learning some of the interface bits ... and getting a Kensington Expert Mouse Trackball (which is a great trackball with a spinner ring and no mouse at all) so it works with the color wheels real spiffy ...and the ease of saving "looks" for my camera's main use stuff ... speed of quick corrections is stunning. "Normalize" ... a couple clicks if that's all you want to do. Keyboard shorts too. All for me, way faster than the 3-Way or Fast.

As to the ACR interface, I went down to NAB in Vegas this spring, got to talk with some of the folks "behind" Sg. And also such things as coming from a stills background, being familiar with the Lightroom and ACR style of panels, wondering if that was possible. Got a pretty good answer ... short answer, "possible" ... well, yes, ... probably.

But ... very, very difficult to do, because of a concatenation of things.

First ... the photo apps (Lr, P-shop, Bridge) are developed by a completely different group of people, EVERYTHING from the "look" or style thinkers to the coders. There is virtually no "code" similarity between the products for stills and the products for video. Think about the differences here ... Photoshop and Lightroom are designed to work on one image at a time, realistically, and allow "batching" instructions to a few others. And they can at times pretty much take over most computer's resources. The video apps are designed to work on (process) THOUSANDS of images at a time, as that's what a clip is, let alone a full sequence of clips. The coding "ideology" for the two is completely different. Even though P-shop has some video handling capability, NONE of the code is anywhere near alike. You can't say "we've got that code here, let's put it in over there ... ".

It would be like thinking you just wanted good power in a little European sportster so you decided to put a big American-built Cummings diesel motor in it. Um ... with enough work & hassle, it actually might be possible. The wisdom of the effort, let alone the happiness you might achieve with the result ... well, it might be worth thinking about before starting. Or at least realizing it's gonna be a ton of work to do.

Second ... resources while running. In stills, if one is technically sharp, one looks at a histogram while "developing" in Lr terminology. That histogram takes next to no resources whatever, works perfectly well. In video, if your aren't looking at least at a good Vectorscope if not also Parade while working, well ... the success of your endeavors let alone the time to create them is going to be ... perhaps ... poor. Probably. Yet those scopes can take quite a bit of resources all by their lonesome. Which is why they have the option to "pause" the scopes while playback is going on, as to keep them going in real-time is a right b-tard. Resource-wise.

Think of what's going in in the video apps: they take your source footage, but only the bits you've selected (but out FROM the whole clip constantly), all the changes & effects you've made, compute instantly for every flipping image at between 24 to 120 per second what it "should" look like, and display that in your playback monitor. This is a load the stills apps don't even think about. And yet, they've got to make these things "look" like there's no difference in getting things to your monitor than the stills programs. It is literally like comparing 18-wheel freight trucks to Maseratis. And expecting the Maserati to carry the load the freight truck does. Hey, the little Maserati may actually have more horsepower,. you know. Why can't it pull that semi-trailer? P-shop has some video capability, why can't you just cut & paste something else from P-shop into Sg?

So ... the long answer is adding some option like the LR/ACR style interface is an intriguing idea even for the Sg "team". However, it would pretty much mean they'd need to rebuild a ton of the program. Now, most of the things you can do within that interface Sg already does, albeit with vastly different code and "tools". When I asked about perhaps just allowing a Secondaries panel with the HSL look out of Lr, one of the main dudes just sort of ... blanched. I would guess from other comments that that little bit has been discussed or something along that line, and ... it would be a "Significant" people-using project to accomplish. From a coding standpoint, some parts of Sg would simply have to be rebuilt. With the appropriate de-bugging needed to get it operational AGAIN on so many different types of hardware/codecs/drivers/OS & etc.

There's times that HSL panel would allow me to easily do precisely what I want ... I would love to have it. I've put in numerous Wish Requests for it. And of course, done so in person. I'm not expecting to see it any time soon, mind you ... but again, put in wish requests for the ACR panel in Sg. Can't hurt.

Neil

[Sijimo9]

Nice explanation of things. I agree that video is different from still image once it's playing. And the one who codes a tool for video should take that into account. I can see a situation where regular users could be unhappy with Camera RAW, saying that it's not real-time, too slow, takes a lifetime to render. And it's true.

But sometimes you can't get away without good noise reduction, local sharpening and lens correction.

Except for lens correction, two other effects are very hard to compute.

So we can say that they should only be used in photo realm, where you have only 1 image, instead of thousands.

In reality we always want better results, so as i said we can sacrifice the render and playback speed sometimes for the sake of visual quality. I personally can live without Camera RAW and Speedgrade pretty good, but it would be just more convenient to have an option for this effect in Premiere and After Effects.

[Sijimo9]

By the way, is there a noise reduction and local sharpening in SpeedGrade? Davince Resolve 11 has them.

I was unable to find anything similar in SG.

[R Neil Haugen]

In the lower left panel, when you're working a grade, at the bottom of course is the P, S, +, & other things? If you click the " + ", the top option is Blur/Sharpen. Under that are the sharpening options in Speedgrade ... and I believe they can be masked to affect specific areas. There isn't an equivalent "clarity" local-contrast-lifting option I can think of off the top of my head ...

In a Secondaries layer, there is a "denoise" option especially meant for noise that might have become more visible due to the controls applied through that layer. Not sure how much general effect it would have, as there are not sub-controls for it. I think there are a couple things people have used, perhaps NeatVideo or something that might have a plugin for Speedgrade?

Within the Adobe video programs, the one with the best de-noise features is After Effects ... Effects/Noise & Grain/Degrain ...

Feel free ... in fact, ENCOURAGED! ... to put in a feature wish-request with Adobe for a clarity control in Sg. I've done that oh, a few times ... ahem ... the more the merrier, and the more likely we are to get it.

Neil

[psychilles]

Filled the request form!