32 Replies Latest reply on Jan 29, 2017 5:12 PM by cogden7

    DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom

    davide291

      I am exporting raw files from Capture One Pro as DNG to Lightroom and Lightroom renders them with a green cast. The same files open just fine in Iridient Developer 2.4.4. I have reset all presets to default and can't see anything that I am doing wrong. Has anyone else had the problem?

       

      Would someone try exporting a raw file from C1P as DNG and importing to Lightroom and replying with the result?

       

      Thanks

       

      Message was edited by: David Edwards

        • 1. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
          ronblade2000

          I am having this exact same problem. I use Capture One to remove lens corrections on my RX100M3 -- which Lightroom does not allow me to do -- but when I export as a DNG file, Lightroom opens the photo with a heavy green cast that I cannot remove through any of the tools in Lightroom. (TIFF file exports from Capture One look fine in Lightroom, but I want to keep my workflow in RAW.)

           

          All Adobe products seem to be affected (Lightroom, Photoshop, Bridge) so I think it's an Adobe Camera Raw issue. Opening the exported DNG in iPhoto or Raw Photo Processor 64 works just fine, so this just confirms my suspicions.

           

          I LOVE Lightroom and really want to solve this issue, so any suggestions or theories would be most welcome. Thank you!

          • 2. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
            sandy_mc Level 3

            I'd suggest trying selecting "Embedded" as the camera profile. If that doesn't help, then probably the only solution will be to change the camera name in the DNG.

             

            Sandy

            • 3. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
              DdeGannes Adobe Community Professional

              Just my thoughts thinking out of the box since I do not use DNG files.

              When you use Capture to adjust lens correction and export as DNG the file is no longer raw data it has been cooked by Capture one with their profile.

              When you import the file into Lightroom it is being fooled by the DNG extension and applying the Adobe "raw" profile to the image and you get that cast from double profiling.

              Why not export from Capture One as tiff.

              • 4. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
                ronblade2000 Level 1

                Sandy, thanks for the suggestion. "Embedded" is the only profile I have the choice of selecting, so that doesn't do the trick. As for changing the the name in the DNG, are you referring to the "Make" and "Model" fields in the EXIF data? I did try to change those, using a made-up camera make and model. That didn't seem to change things. I still get the extreme green cast in Lightroom.

                 

                Is there a particular camera model I should change the EXIF field to in order to trick Lightroom into not applying the RX100m3 lens corrections?

                 

                Or does anyone know of a program that will strip out the lens correction data embedded in the RX100m3 RAW files?

                • 5. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
                  ronblade2000 Level 1

                  Davide291, I appreciate your out-of-box thinking!

                   

                  Your theory about Lightroom mistakenly applying a second layer of "profiling" may very well be the case, but I wish there was an obvious way to undo Lightroom's "adjustments." No amount of slider tweaking seems to be able to remove the layer of green.

                   

                  I also wonder why DNGs exported from DxO OpticsPro do not have this color cast.

                   

                  As for not wanting to export as TIFFs, I was under the impression that RAW files -- even the DNG exports -- contain more information for a wider range of tweaking down the line (in Lightroom, or whatever program I choose to open the DNG with). Am I incorrect in this assessment of DNG vs TIFF?

                   

                  Thank You!

                  • 6. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
                    DdeGannes Adobe Community Professional

                    Quote "I use Capture One to remove lens corrections on my RX100M3"

                    Once you have used raw processing software to make changes to the raw data it now becomes a rendered image file. The fact that you have put this into a DNG wrapper does not retain the raw data.

                    e.g If you import your raw files into Lightroom directly and select copy as DNG you get the raw data within the DNG file. That is different.

                    Maybe you should also post on a Capture One forum for some advice.

                    • 7. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
                      davide291 Level 1

                      You have control over lens corrections in Lightroom just go to the Lens Corrections tab and uncheck the Enable Lens Corrections checkbox.

                       

                      As to why C1P DNG files have a green cast, I can't get the C1P people to even consider that something may be wrong with the program and to check it out, they just say that the DNG file should be opened with the correct profile which you can't do in Lightroom. The color profile, or lack thereof, applied to the jpg preview may be the problem. And of course I can't get the Lightroom people to look at the DNG from C1P to help find the problem, they just say that it is a C1P problem.

                       

                      All in all, I think the point is that C1P people or the Lightroom people don't want you to use their program for 1 purpose in a workflow. I know that the finder only shows a slight cyan cast to the image and Iridient Developer 3.0.1 opens the DNG just fine, and has become my developer of choice, so I think the problem is with Camera Raw which is the basis for Lightroom.

                       

                      Now a DNG file is no longer a raw file, it can contain the original raw file but that has to be extracted by using the Adobe DNG Converter program. The image file contained in the DNG is a linear TIFF file meaning it doesn't have a gamma curve, white point nor a color profile applied to image data yet. It is just a straight translation from the raw data pixel to linear TIFF pixel using the makers logarithms for their Bayer filters to assign rgb color info.

                       

                      This doesn't answer the problem of the green cast and I don't think it will be answered until someone with knowledge of the DNG format and Camera Raw looks at the files to see what is exactly is happening in Camera Raw and Adobe refuses to do that.

                      • 8. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
                        Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        It sounds like there is something wrong with the profile C1P embeds in their dng output or with its white balance data (if the data is still somewhat uncooked). It might help to post one of these for us to examine but be aware that I don't think there are many dng experts on this forum. I am just curious whether this is indeed somehow still raw data or whether this is a type of special tiff file.

                        • 9. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
                          DdeGannes Adobe Community Professional

                          Quote "(if the data is still somewhat uncooked)"

                          I think its either cooked or not!

                          • 10. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
                            Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                            It is possible for the data to be linear demosaiced but still be in the original camera color space and not have white balance correction applied. Sort of like Lightroom's smart previews. This is different from tiff so half cooked is appropriate here.

                            • 12. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
                              DdeGannes Adobe Community Professional

                              Quote

                              "You have control over lens corrections in Lightroom just go to the Lens Corrections tab and uncheck the Enable Lens Corrections checkbox."

                               

                              This is true is you are working with a file for which there is a lens profile in Lightroom/ ACR. For many mirror-less cameras because their lenses specific design require correction to be applied within the software rendition of the raw data. For these cameras and lenses Lightroom reads the camera manufacturers instructions which is stored within the raw file header and applies automatically. This cannot be turned off, this is so by design and is being applied at the Camera Manufacturers request. Normal lens profiles applied for regular DSLR Cameras are designed to correct for the limitations / flaws in the lens.

                               

                              As to why C1P DNG files have a green cast, I can't get the C1P people to even consider that something may be wrong with the program and to check it out, they just say that the DNG file should be opened with the correct profile which you can't do in Lightroom. The color profile, or lack thereof, applied to the jpg preview may be the problem. And of course I can't get the Lightroom people to look at the DNG from C1P to help find the problem, they just say that it is a C1P problem.

                               

                              I am not sure what is going on here but since I am not a user of DNG, I am interested in inquiring why is it necessary to convert to DNG from C1P?

                               

                              All in all, I think the point is that C1P people or the Lightroom people don't want you to use their program for 1 purpose in a workflow. I know that the finder only shows a slight cyan cast to the image and Iridient Developer 3.0.1 opens the DNG just fine, and has become my developer of choice, so I think the problem is with Camera Raw which is the basis for Lightroom.

                               

                              As above?

                               

                              Now a DNG file is no longer a raw file, it can contain the original raw file but that has to be extracted by using the Adobe DNG Converter program. The image file contained in the DNG is a linear TIFF file meaning it doesn't have a gamma curve, white point nor a color profile applied to image data yet. It is just a straight translation from the raw data pixel to linear TIFF pixel using the makers logarithms for their Bayer filters to assign rgb color info.

                               

                              ??

                               

                              This doesn't answer the problem of the green cast and I don't think it will be answered until someone with knowledge of the DNG format and Camera Raw looks at the files to see what is exactly is happening in Camera Raw and Adobe refuses to do that.

                               

                              ???.

                                

                              • 13. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
                                davide291 Level 1

                                This is true is you are working with a file for which there is a lens profile in Lightroom/ ACR. For many mirror-less cameras because their lenses specific design require correction to be applied within the software rendition of the raw data. For these cameras and lenses Lightroom reads the camera manufacturers instructions which is stored within the raw file header and applies automatically. This cannot be turned off, this is so by design and is being applied at the Camera Manufacturers request. Normal lens profiles applied for regular DSLR Cameras are designed to correct for the limitations / flaws in the lens.


                                I realized this is what RONBLADE2000 was referencing after I posted and that is exactly why he wants to convert the file in C1P to DNG because C1P allows the removal of this lens correcting metadata and then he wants to continue processing the file as a raw.


                                I am not sure what is going on here but since I am not a user of DNG


                                Then why are you in this conversation?

                                 

                                For your ???

                                 

                                The process of DNG conversion involves extracting raw image data from the source file and assembling it according to the DNG specification into the required TIFF format. This optionally involves compressing it. Metadata as defined in the DNG specification is also put into that TIFF assembly. Some of this metadata is based on the characteristics of the camera, and especially of its sensor. Other metadata may be image-dependent or camera-setting dependent. So a DNG converter must have knowledge of the camera model concerned, and be able to process the source raw image file including key metadata. Optionally a JPEG preview is obtained and added. Finally, all of this is written as a DNG file.


                                From the Adobe specification of DNG.

                                • 14. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
                                  ronblade2000 Level 1

                                  Thanks for your thorough response, DdeGannes.


                                  "I am not sure what is going on here but since I am not a user of DNG, I am interested in inquiring why is it necessary to convert to DNG from C1P?"

                                   

                                  In answer to this very good question, I am trying to work around Lightroom's forced lens corrections on the RX100m3. That is the heart of the matter. I love Lightroom's interface and features, but I do not understand why it forces me to accept its RX100 lens corrections when other programs (like Capture One and DxO Optics Pro) allow for user adjustments of this same parameter. What I am trying to do is "trick" Lightroom into accepting Raw files from my RX100m3 without applying lens corrections.

                                   

                                  Many, if not most, of my wide angle shots have been overly corrected by Lightroom, IMHO, and I would love to have control over how much correction is applied. Removing this ability seems to be a conscious choice on the part of Adobe. Ideally, Lightroom would just allow me to uncheck the lens corrections box, but as you described, the RX100m3 Raw files have the lens corrections "cooked in" and Lightroom applies these upon import. Lightroom offers no choice in the matter. When I realized that other programs DID allow for control over the degree of lens correction for this particular camera, I thought that perhaps I could open some of my wide-angle raw files in one of these programs and then export as a DNG in the hopes that Lightroom would NOT force lens corrections upon import. And I was pleased to see that this is the case. BUT, if the DNG files are not "really" Raw files any more, then maybe I am complicating matters here and losing quality in the process. (And these DNG files are larger than my original Raws, another down-side to this process.)

                                   

                                  Basically, I am jumping through hoops to get Lightroom to allow me to NOT apply lens corrections to my RX100m3 Raw files. If there is a better way, maybe one that involves stripping out the embedded lens correction data, I would love to know about it. Of course, Adobe could make this all a lot easier if they would just allow the lens correction check-box to work as it should. If other programs can do it, I don't understand why Lightroom can't.

                                   

                                  Thanks for listening, and for any ideas you might have to make my workflow simpler.

                                  • 15. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
                                    ronblade2000 Level 1

                                    Concerning the issue of the green cast of CaptureOne DNGs when opened in Lightroom, I have made a sample photo available so that you can see the issue firsthand:

                                     

                                    Dropbox - 02-CaptureOneNoLensCorrection.dng

                                     

                                    Here is the original RAW, which opens correctly in Lightroom, BUT with lens corrections forced. Note the distorted truck in the lower right:

                                     

                                    Dropbox - 01-OriginalFromCamera.ARW

                                     

                                    Finally, here is an exported DNG from a trial version of Optics Pro, which allows for no lens corrections AND does not have the green cast in Lightroom, BUT Optics Pro makes HUGE DNG file sizes and is way too expensive to be used for this single purpose:

                                     

                                    Dropbox - 03-OpticsProNoLensCorrection.dng

                                     

                                    Hopefully these files help illustrate both the green cast issue, as well as my desire to determine the amount of lens correction according to my own judgment. Sorry the photo is crooked -- I know that sort of diminishes the impact of my example.

                                     

                                    Thanks for looking!

                                    • 16. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
                                      DdeGannes Adobe Community Professional

                                      Quote "Many, if not most, of my wide angle shots have been overly corrected by Lightroom, IMHO, and I would love to have control over how much correction is applied. Removing this ability seems to be a conscious choice on the part of Adobe. Ideally, Lightroom would just allow me to uncheck the lens corrections box, but as you described, the RX100m3 Raw files have the lens corrections "cooked in" and Lightroom applies these upon import. Lightroom offers no choice in the matter. When I realized that other programs DID allow for control over the degree of lens correction for this particular camera, I thought that perhaps I could open some of my wide-angle raw files in one of these programs and then export as a DNG in the hopes that Lightroom would NOT force lens corrections upon import. And I was pleased to see that this is the case. BUT, if the DNG files are not "really" Raw files any more, then maybe I am complicating matters here and losing quality in the process."


                                      Adobe is probably doing so at the Camera Manufacturers request. Its the way the system has been designed by them, they do not wish you to "see" the amount of distortion the lens has created. When you shoot in jpeg mode with the camera that is what is provided (automatic correction by the firmware) and I doubt that it can be turned off.


                                      You can post a Feature Request at the forum Adobe has available for this purpose. See the link.

                                      Photoshop Family Customer Community

                                      • 17. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
                                        sandy_mc Level 3

                                        Ok, so that was an interesting little problem.

                                         

                                        I've taken a close look at your files, and the short version is that this is actually a bug in the white balance of the DNG as written by Capture One. Unfortunately there's not much you can do about it, other than contact Phase One, and tell them about the problem.

                                         

                                        The long version is as follows. Below is an extract of the DNG version of the original ARW, as converted by Adobe's DNG converter. The color of the image is essentially defined by the color matrixes, and the AsShotNeutral, which is the white balance.

                                         

                                        ColorMatrix1:

                                              0.7366  -0.3213  0.0380

                                            -0.3609  1.1127  0.2852

                                            -0.0218  0.0694  0.5821

                                        ColorMatrix2:

                                              0.6596  -0.2079  -0.0562

                                            -0.4782  1.3016  0.1933

                                            -0.0970  0.1581  0.5181

                                        CameraCalibration1:

                                              1.0568  0.0000  0.0000

                                              0.0000  1.0000  0.0000

                                              0.0000  0.0000  1.1106

                                        CameraCalibration2:

                                              1.0568  0.0000  0.0000

                                              0.0000  1.0000  0.0000

                                              0.0000  0.0000  1.1106

                                        AnalogBalance: 1.0000 1.0000 1.0000

                                        AsShotNeutral: 0.4025 1.0000 0.5714

                                         

                                        Now looking at the the DNG from Capture One, what we see is the following:

                                         

                                        ColorMatrix1:

                                              1.0000  0.0000  0.0000

                                              0.0000  1.0000  0.0000

                                              0.0000  0.0000  1.0000

                                        AsShotNeutral: 0.4026 1.0000 0.5714

                                         

                                        What Phase One have done is to keep the DNG in Bayer array form, but have entirely transformed the color space from the camera's native color space, to something that is approximately the DNG specification's color space, which is a gamma 1 space with ProPhoto primaries. However, they haven't changed the AsShotNeutral. So the color space is what might best be termed "weird". It's a kind of a mongrel of ProPhoto and the camera sensor space.

                                         

                                        The end result is that while the white point of the original ARW is temp:5279 and tint:-20.4, if you run the numbers on the Capture One DNG, you end up with temp:8783 and tint:335. Which might be ok, but the tint of 335 is way outside of anything that could ever occur in nature. Lightroom, etc only allow for tints of +-150. (As loaded into LR, you'll see that the tint shows as 150) As a result, Adobe's products are throwing up all over the image. The same thing happens with other raw converters, to a greater or a lesser extent depending on their tolerance for strange tint values. So, e.g., when I use AccuRaw, the DNG image is ok at first glance - whites are reasonably white, etc - but then if you compare to AccuRaw reading the original ARW, you can see that the color is actually not quite what it should be, especially the sky.

                                         

                                        I don't think that there's any easy fix for this, other than for Phase One to fix Capture One so as to keep white points in a somewhat sane range. Technically, the DNG as written is not out of spec - the DNG specification doesn't mandate any range for white balance, but in practice what they are doing is going to be a problem.

                                         

                                        Sandy

                                         

                                        • 18. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
                                          davide291 Level 1

                                          Thanks Sandy, I had a feeling.

                                           

                                          Now the question is why do raw developers such as Iridient Developer, iPhoto and Raw Processor 64 open the file without the color cast? I guess the don't use that DNG ColorMatrix1.

                                           

                                          I will try to send your info to C1P.

                                           

                                          Thanks again

                                          • 19. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
                                            sandy_mc Level 3

                                            To display this file correctly, the other raw developers would have to use the color matrix. It's more likely that they just allow a wider range of white balance settings than the Adobe products. BTW, looking at the Adobe products, it does look as if the white balance setting is causing some kind of a overflow problem in the Adobe products. AccuRaw also limits tint to +-150, but looks much better than LR - it's not until you compare what the image colors should be in the original ARW to what they display as that it becomes clear that there is a WB issue.

                                             

                                            Sandy

                                            • 20. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
                                              ronblade2000 Level 1

                                              Quite impressive, Sandy! Thanks for cracking the code on this issue. It looks like you discovered exactly what's going on -- now, hopefully either Phase One or Adobe will do something about it.

                                              • 21. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
                                                ronblade2000 Level 1

                                                Ddegannes: Yes, I should submit a feature request at the proper Adobe forum -- and I will! I know I'm not the first person to bring up this issue with Adobe, but hopefully one more voice will move them closer to changing their policy on user-defeatble RX100 lens corrections. Sorry if I hijacked your green tint thread, but these two issues have been closely linked for me. Thanks for the discussion, everyone!

                                                • 22. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
                                                  ronblade2000 Level 1

                                                  I received a fairly unhelpful response from Phase One regarding the green-tinted DNG issue:

                                                   

                                                  "Convertion to DNG (Digiital Negative) is just what it is suppose to be, convertion from RAW to RAW

                                                  It is not modified in anyway which a processed file would be (TIF JPG etc)

                                                  This does not mean they are incompatible, it just means it is unadjusted RAW data.

                                                   

                                                  We are not mistagging as we are using Adobe DNG container the way it is originally described.

                                                  Now there is some claming that we should produced adjusted data but then it would not be true RAW data and the point of being RAW is lost.

                                                  We suggest that you avoid DNG in this scenarion due to its many flaws in your workflow since you loose more then you gain.

                                                   

                                                  Kind Regards

                                                  Phase One support"

                                                   

                                                  It was worth a shot. Oh, well. LOL

                                                  • 23. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
                                                    Jao vdL Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                                    Something is "loose" indeed

                                                     

                                                    Sorry, the loose/lose thing is a bit of a pet peeve.

                                                    • 25. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
                                                      davide291 Level 1

                                                      Now isn't that a bunch of BS. They know what they're doing.

                                                       

                                                      At least, all this has made me learn a little more about DNG files.

                                                      • 26. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
                                                        ronblade2000 Level 1

                                                        I sent a followup message to Phase One:

                                                         

                                                        "If nothing is being modified in the conversion to DNG, then why does the DNG file display with a heavy green cast in Lightroom, while the original Raw file does not? Clearly something has been modified by Capture One in the process of converting to DNG. I uploaded the original Raw as well as the DNG, so hopefully you saw the difference for yourself. Thank you for helping me with this."

                                                         

                                                        And their response:

                                                         

                                                        "Because it is a generic document and not a camera specific file.

                                                        If it is camera specific, then it contains all the settings and the software reads it like a "Sony RX100m3" and applies all the specifics for this.

                                                        Now it is just a generic DNG which could have come from any camera and no specific settings for this specific camera is applied.

                                                         

                                                        Kind Regards

                                                        Phase One support"

                                                        • 27. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
                                                          thedigitaldog MVP & Adobe Community Professional

                                                          davide291 wrote:

                                                           

                                                          I am exporting raw files from Capture One Pro as DNG to Lightroom and Lightroom renders them with a green cast. The same files open just fine in Iridient Developer 2.4.4.

                                                          It seems Capture One isn't handling the DNG data correctly as your test indicates the superior product IMHO (Iridient Developer) is doing the job properly. You're getting nowhere with Phase, I'd contact Brian at Iridient Developer who really knows his stuff and is very generous with his time and support. FWIW, this isn't the first time I've heard of 'issues' with C1's 'handling' of DNGs. It's not a DNG issue, it's a software handling the DNG issue.

                                                          • 28. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
                                                            sandy_mc Level 3

                                                            Your best chance of getting a more intelligible response from Phase One would probably to try to contact Lionel Kuhlmann - he has responsibility for Capture One, and in my experience takes issues like this seriously.

                                                            • 31. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
                                                              CostasB

                                                              Better late than ever they say... just seen it...

                                                               

                                                              anyway... all you have to do is when exporting to .dng in the metadata tab untick the Incl. GPS coord. and you're done!

                                                              • 32. Re: DNG files exported from Capture One Pro have green cast in Lightroom
                                                                cogden7 Level 1

                                                                I just tried your suggestion using Capture One 10 and C1 XF IQ3 files (.eip) and the intense green continues in both Lightroom and Photoshop CC 2017. Of course Adobe's DNG converter can't read the .eip files at all.

                                                                 

                                                                I tried a variety of metadata checkbox combos to no avail.

                                                                 

                                                                Any other workarounds MUCH appreciated!