13 Replies Latest reply on Sep 29, 2014 10:36 PM by ssprengel

    ACR color mode defaults

    English-Wolf Level 1

      raw captures do not use the camera settings.  It records them in the EXIF data.

       

      ACR uses the EXIF data when opening a raw capture.  This is painfully obvious when it comes to white balance if it has not been set properly at capture time.  Not a problem, that can be modified the EXIF WB is the starting point.

       

      The questions concerns the color mode:

      1. If set at sRGB at the time of capture, does ACR uses the camera EXIF setting (sRGB) as it does for the white balance?
      2. If so, should not color mode be a choice BEFORE opening the raw capture in ACR?

       

      The 'no question asked', EXIF color mode data opening is troubling as sRGB cuts the gamut quite a bit.  All edits are made in the sRGB mode.  Setting the 'open as 16 bit RGB' only opens a 16 bit sRGB image as if it was a 16 bit RGB, meaning there is no color in the suddenly re-opened gamut space since the original color data has been killed when opening the file.

       

      Last question:

      What am I missing here?

       

      Message was edited by: Jacques V, 'wording'

        • 1. Re: ACR color mode defaults
          Yammer Level 4

          Camera Raw does not use the colour space choice recorded by the camera. Camera Raw uses the colour space you choose in its workflow options. This setting is "sticky" in that it stays set at whatever colour space you last chose, until you change it again.

           

          Regardless, the choice of colour space does not affect the gamut of a raw image. It only affects the conversion to an RGB image.

           

          You could say that a raw image has no colour space, but that wouldn't be technically correct.

           

          The in-camera colour space setting only affects:

          the image preview (and its histogram)

          JPEG/TIFF images created in-camera

          • 2. Re: ACR color mode defaults
            English-Wolf Level 1

            The choice reflect the output to PS, not the input to ACR and this where I am really shaky.

            The EXIF recorded WB is used as a starting point, so is sRGB also used as a starting point?  In that case loads of color shades are dumped.

             

            I rephrased my question for another forum:

             

            This is a two pronged question that concerns ACR and raw.

            Background

            A raw capture does not use the camera settings but records them, including white balance and color mode.

            ACR uses that recorded data to import the raw image as illustrated by the 'default' that reflects the original color balance.

            Questions:

            Does ACR uses the color mode recorded as camera setting when importing the image?

            If so, is there a way to override that import setting in ACR?

            My concern is that if ACR defaults to the camera settings the potential color gamut is ignored and one of the advantage of the raw format is severely limited by ACR as the raw format allows for a color mode change.

            • 3. Re: ACR color mode defaults
              JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

              Camera Raw DOES NOT use the color mode set in the camera on raw files. It is my understanding that Camera Raw operates similar to Lightroom, using the ProPhoto color space as its working space. Then you can choose the space that you use when you send the image to Photoshop.

              • 4. Re: ACR color mode defaults
                Yammer Level 4

                English-Wolf wrote:

                 

                The choice reflect the output to PS, not the input to ACR and this where I am really shaky.

                The EXIF recorded WB is used as a starting point, so is sRGB also used as a starting point?  In that case loads of color shades are dumped.

                 

                I rephrased my question for another forum:

                 

                This is a two pronged question that concerns ACR and raw.

                Background

                A raw capture does not use the camera settings but records them, including white balance and color mode.

                ACR uses that recorded data to import the raw image as illustrated by the 'default' that reflects the original color balance.

                Questions:

                Does ACR uses the color mode recorded as camera setting when importing the image?

                If so, is there a way to override that import setting in ACR?

                My concern is that if ACR defaults to the camera settings the potential color gamut is ignored and one of the advantage of the raw format is severely limited by ACR as the raw format allows for a color mode change.

                I stand by my original answer. Do I need to rephrase it?

                 

                There is (effectively) no colour space in a raw file. The only time it applies is when you convert it to a raster/bitmap/RGB image (i.e. output to Ps).

                 

                Camera Raw effectively ignores the sRGB/AdobeRGB setting in the raw EXIF. It's irrelevant.

                • 5. Re: ACR color mode defaults
                  ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                  This will be restating what others have said for the most part:

                   

                  The sRGB or AdobeRGB in a raw file refers to the camera-embedded JPG preview(s) that the raw file contains and has nothing to do with the sensor data.  

                   

                  ACR and LR use the same 16-bit ProPhotoRGB-sized, linear-gamma internal working space that cannot be changed.

                   

                  Adobe determines how to convert the raw data into the internal working space by profiling each camera model, so in essence a raw photo has a color space that Adobe determines for its purposes but it wouldn’t be applicable to other raw converters or the camera, itself.

                   

                  When you are working in ACR and LR the data has already been converted from the Adobe-determined raw data to the LR and ACR internal working colorspace.  The only thing you have control over is the output colorspace when the data is exported from LR or saved from ACR or opened into PS.  Of course PS has its own working colorspace but you can change it.  I usually leave mine as 16-bit ProPhotoRGB.

                  • 6. Re: ACR color mode defaults
                    English-Wolf Level 1

                    I am in contact with tech support and will publish the answer.

                    • 7. Re: ACR color mode defaults
                      English-Wolf Level 1

                      The answer is bad....

                       

                      This is the transcript.  It confirms what I suspected.

                       

                      Thank you for contacting Adobe.
                      A representative will be with you shortly.

                      You are now chatting with Abhishek Joshi.

                      Abhishek Joshi: Hello. Welcome to Adobe Technical Support.

                      Jacques V: This is a two pronged question that concerns ACR and raw. Background A raw capture does not use the camera settings but records them, including white balance and color mode. ACR uses that recorded data to import the raw image as illustrated by the 'default' that reflects the original color balance. Questions: Does ACR uses the color mode recorded as camera setting when importing the image? If so, is there a way to override that import setting in ACR? My concern is that if ACR defaults to the camera settings the potential color gamut is ignored and one of the advantage of the raw format is severely limited by ACR as the raw format allows for a color mode change.

                      Abhishek Joshi: I will check it first

                      Abhishek Joshi: I am checking on this please provide me 2 minutes

                      Jacques V: Ok

                      Abhishek Joshi: Thankyou

                      Abhishek Joshi: Thank you for your time and patience

                      Abhishek Joshi: ACR information is derived from your RAW picture

                      Abhishek Joshi: If you do ACR default it will take the picture to the original state

                      Jacques V: Meaning it will use sRGB?

                      Jacques V: (as it was the camera setting, even if not used when recording the raw caprture)

                      Abhishek Joshi: You clicked the picture in sRGB ?

                      Abhishek Joshi: What ever the profile you chose in camera while capturing the picture

                      Jacques V: Ok then. In this case we eidt the raw file in sRGB and the export to PS CC is whatever is set in the option link in ACR. Am I correct?

                      Abhishek Joshi: Correct

                      Jacques V: Thank you. Not good news but a good information to have.

                      Jacques V: Good bye.

                      Abhishek Joshi: Your welcome

                      Abhishek Joshi: BBye

                      • 8. Re: ACR color mode defaults
                        ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        Far from being “bad news”, from what I can tell most all that conversation is nonsense because the sRGB you’re referring to is what was set in the camera, and the sRGB the CS person is referring to is that set in ACR’s workflow options, or at least the language is imprecise enough that each side of the conversation can assume something different without the other side realizing it.

                         

                        Setting sRGB or AdobeRGB IN THE CAMERA has nothing to do with what happens in Lightroom or Photoshop if you’re working with RAW files out of the camera.

                         

                        Can you restate your concern, here, again?  I think we’ve answered it multiple times, already, but since you decided to ask CS and drawn a negative conclusion from what they said, maybe we don’t understand what you’re asking, either.

                         

                        Maybe I will try answering this way:

                         

                        If I set sRGB in camera and shoot a raw file, then set AdobeRGB in camera and shoot another raw file, the two raw files will be processed the same by Adobe, since they ignore that sRGB vs AdobeRGB mode in the camera for raw processing purposes. 

                         

                        The only reason Adobe would have for looking at that ocamera set colorspace is for interpreting the camera-embedded preview using fast previews in Bridge or for the Import grid in Lightroom or for the first fraction of a second in Lightroom while the Adobe-preview is being computed.

                        • 9. Re: ACR color mode defaults
                          Yammer Level 4

                          English-Wolf wrote:

                           

                          I am in contact with tech support and will publish the answer.

                          Why bother? We've already given it to you. Have you read all the answers?

                          Oh, and the tech support guy was wrong. But feel free to take his word over ours.

                          • 10. Re: ACR color mode defaults
                            English-Wolf Level 1

                            Abhishek Joshi: What ever the profile you chose in camera while capturing the picture

                            The first operation is an import to ACR using the camera EXIF, just as the camera uses the EXIF White balance as a starting point.

                            The difference is that the color space setting cannot be modified after import.  You have already dropped all the data between sRGB and RGB.

                            ACR option allows to work in RGB on a scaled down sRGB then export to PS or whatever as a RGB.

                             

                            You have two operation taking place: 

                            1. is an import using the profile select IN CAMERA (EXIF use)
                            2. is an export using ACR option

                             

                            This is not that hard to comprehend.  It is kind of similar to importing a RTF, stripping it to TXT  before using it in a Word Processor and saving onto the WP format.  Two different operations.

                             

                            What you should pull out of this is that you must set the wider color space in camera as ACR will use the EXIF setting to import the capture.

                            • 11. Re: ACR color mode defaults
                              JimHess Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                              You can use that procedure if you want. But the information you have received or the conclusions you have drawn are incorrect. But hey, don't listen to anyone here. We are only users. Good luck.

                              • 12. Re: ACR color mode defaults
                                Yammer Level 4

                                English-Wolf wrote:

                                 

                                Abhishek Joshi: What ever the profile you chose in camera while capturing the picture

                                The first operation is an import to ACR using the camera EXIF, just as the camera uses the EXIF White balance as a starting point.

                                The difference is that the color space setting cannot be modified after import.  You have already dropped all the data between sRGB and RGB.

                                ACR option allows to work in RGB on a scaled down sRGB then export to PS or whatever as a RGB.

                                 

                                You have two operation taking place:

                                1. is an import using the profile select IN CAMERA (EXIF use)
                                2. is an export using ACR option

                                 

                                This is not that hard to comprehend.  It is kind of similar to importing a RTF, stripping it to TXT  before using it in a Word Processor and saving onto the WP format.  Two different operations.

                                 

                                What you should pull out of this is that you must set the wider color space in camera as ACR will use the EXIF setting to import the capture.

                                Are you telling us what happens now? Is this your own deduction, or did you read this somewhere?

                                 

                                So, although we've already given you the answer in detail, you are disregarding it, and are now telling us your correct answer?

                                 

                                This is one of the craziest things I've read in this forum. Well done.

                                • 13. Re: ACR color mode defaults
                                  ssprengel Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                                  Your original questions were:

                                  The questions concerns the color mode:

                                  1. If set at sRGB at the time of capture, does ACR uses the camera EXIF setting (sRGB) as it does for the white balance?
                                  2. If so, should not color mode be a choice BEFORE opening the raw capture in ACR?

                                    What am I missing here?

                                  The answer to question 1 is No for camera-produced RAWs and Yes for camera-produced JPGs.

                                  The answer to question 2 is Not-Applicable because the answer to question 1 is not Yes.

                                  The answer to the last question is Unknown.