8 Replies Latest reply on Oct 9, 2014 4:53 AM by Eugene Tyson

    Is There an Easier Way to Save a PDF for Perfect Binding?

    AutumnElite

      I've always had this problem whenever I do a booklet or magazine that will end up perfect bound: I have my document setup in CS6 with "facing pages" so I can easily design spreads with images and backgrounds that span both pages. Usually, when it prints, it's saddle stitched, so I don't mind if the inside edge has contents from the other page since they will print next to each other anyway. When I've done perfect bound booklets in the past, I've always unchecked "facing pages" and manually duplicated and moved the image that span the entire spread to cover both pages. However, I'm currently working on a 48-page magazine and I really don't feel like doing this... specifically for fear of missing something and overlooking it so that it prints wrong.

       

      Here are some examples:

       

      This first one obviously has one background image that spans both pages of the spread

      Screen Shot 2014-10-08 at 11.26.05 PM.png

       

      However, when I try to separate the pages. My same right-hand page now has no background. A good majority of the magazine is laid out this way.
      Screen Shot 2014-10-08 at 11.36.09 PM.png  

       

       

      Similarly, this spread with 2 full-page ads have no bleed on the inside margin for proofing purposes. If it were saddle stitched, I wouldn't give a second thought I'd just let the auto bleed pull image from the other ad. Who cares? They're going to be right next to each other anyway. But, since we're going the perfect-bound route, I need for each ad to have full bleed on all 4 sides. Is it just my neuroticism? The inside edge will be glued amongst 47 other pages. Will anyone ever notice that sliver of white, black, and red from the Sarge ad nestled in the spine when they're viewing the Sunrise Detox ad is the cutting is off?

       

      Screen Shot 2014-10-08 at 11.26.58 PM.png

       

      I know you can do the "shuffle pages" thing to help with the ads, but I'm just hoping there's an easier way; a checkbox... something! C'mon, Adobe! You're #1 in the design industry and it's so difficult to work around the facing-pages-full-bleed issue. I know I'm not very advanced with my InDesign experience. But if after several years, many booklets, a few magazines, and a couple version upgrades, I'd like to think I would've found an easier way to do this. You know, kinda like how your new liquid pages features. That would be tremendous if something similar could be implemented for people in printing to quickly change between design spreads, proof spreads, and printing single pages!

       

      Thanks in advance for any help!!
      ~Coral

        • 1. Re: Is There an Easier Way to Save a PDF for Perfect Binding?
          Colin Flashman Adobe Community Professional

          Similarly, this spread with 2 full-page ads have no bleed on the inside margin for proofing purposes. If it were saddle stitched, I wouldn't give a second thought I'd just let the auto bleed pull image from the other ad. Who cares? They're going to be right next to each other anyway. But, since we're going the perfect-bound route, I need for each ad to have full bleed on all 4 sides.

          Not in my opinion. Only need bleed on the top, bottom, and foredge. I say this having had 15 years experience in printing and producing burst bound, perfect bound, saddle stitched and section sewn books.

           

          I don't know why you aren't just using the "facing pages" feature. Turning the facing pages feature off and manually cutting/pasting is full of danger and something I'd definitely not recommend.

           

          The only time I'd recommend having bleed through the spine is if preparing wir-o or coil bound work, and then I would use the method I blogged about elsewhere: http://colecandoo.com/2011/06/03/why-o-wire-o-bleeds/

           

          I note the example used with the picture that goes over the readers spread - to me, that would be an easier feat in a burst-bound book rather than a large saddle stitched book, mainly because the person printing the artwork has to compensate for creep (aka shinging, push-out or thrust, whatever term you like) and this is much harder to do when there are images that cross a reader's spread.

          • 2. Re: Is There an Easier Way to Save a PDF for Perfect Binding?
            Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

            If your publication has facing pages you have to set up it as facing pages. There is no way around it. Not only the pages are right and left, but also many styles are toward or away from spine and will not work properly, also Paragraph Style's keep option will break.

            When you decide to design spread wise, as you do, you have to insert only an odd number of pages and shuffle around whole sperads and not single pages.

            If you want to apply a background via master, you must divide this background at the spine.

            If you require adds with bleed and if you don't know, if the add comes on an even or odd page, your requirement has to include the bleed in both direction. And at the spine no one will bother about a bleed rest as it is invisible. Exceptions are with wire-O-bindings, but there are also correct ways in a facing layout to draw away pages from the same spread in correct single left and right pages as single spreads with inside bleed.

             

            You should never change a facing layout to a non facing layout as you do now. It is a dangerous and wrong work step.

            • 3. Re: Is There an Easier Way to Save a PDF for Perfect Binding?
              AutumnElite Level 1

              Yes! CDFlash. That was one of my concerns with the image that spans the spread is how to compensate for the creep. Is that something I need to do in my design? Or can I just save a PDF in single pages and have the printer adjust for it? I used to work at a print shop that did magazines and catalogs (I did gang runs and box lithos), but the guy in charge of doing the impositions for those just kinda touched on the subject with me when I expressed my curiosity. That was 10 years ago, already. I know his software calculated a lot of that. I don't know. I'm just very confused about this right now--I've never really had to do anything more than 12 pages. I set it up for saddle stitch because that's how it was going to print originally. Now they want to change it to perfect bound and do a second run. I usually just get in touch with the printer for the specs on how they want the files, but they're changing the printer as well and it will be done in China, so I think there will be a huge language barrier trying to ask the printer how to set it up.

               

              So, as a basic, general rule of thumb, you think if I have my document set up with facing pages, and if we choose burst binding, that will help keep the background images continuous through all 48 pages? So I can just save the PDF in single pages as-is and let InDesign create bleed from the images on the opposite page for the "inside" bleed... or should I just leave the inside bleed off and only bleed top, bottom, and outer edge? How much bleed do you typically need for burst bound projects?

               

              Thanks again

              • 4. Re: Is There an Easier Way to Save a PDF for Perfect Binding?
                AutumnElite Level 1

                Thanks Willie

                 

                This is a highly graphic magazine. So none of the backgrounds are the same from spread to spread. Also, I'm the lucky gal (sarcasm) that gets to design this magazine every month. So I know exactly where all of the ads are going. And, yes, making it into single pages instead of facing pages is what I'm definitely trying to avoid for exactly that reason. I work at the 3rd largest label printer in the USA right now... I can't even tell you how many QC departments we have. So I can attest to the fact that one little wrong click of the mouse, and my 48-page magazine is garbage. I definitely don't want that! That's why I'm here You said "here are also correct ways in a facing layout to draw away pages from the same spread in correct single left and right pages as single spreads with inside bleed." What exactly do you mean by that?

                Thanks again!

                • 5. Re: Is There an Easier Way to Save a PDF for Perfect Binding?
                  Colin Flashman Adobe Community Professional

                  autumnelite wrote:

                   

                  Yes! CDFlash. That was one of my concerns with the image that spans the spread is how to compensate for the creep. Is that something I need to do in my design?

                  Compensating for creep is something the printer does with saddle stitched books either with the imposition software (if there are no images that will present issues in cross-overs in readers spreads) or with a combination of manipulating the native file AND the imposition software. It is something that I would not recommend a designer to do but leave it in the hands of the tradies at the printer.

                   

                  The whole thing is being totally over-enginnered. Books read as facing pages, so no matter if the book is bound saddle stitch, burst bound, perfect  bound, or section sewn, set the artwork as facing pages in indesign. The only time it might be an issue is as I mentioned in my previous post and that was a wiro/coil bound book, and again this is something the printer can manipulate if they have the artwork.

                   

                  And as I said before, only worry about the top, bottom and foredge bleeds (not the spine). My work uses 3mm bleed minimum but I have worked at places that asked for 5mm bleed.

                  • 6. Re: Is There an Easier Way to Save a PDF for Perfect Binding?
                    Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                    If you have facing pages, you have to set up the document with facing pages that is what is it for. If you have a spreadwide design as above, keep the spreads together. There is not even one reason not to do so.

                    Only for wire-O-bindings might a different workflow useful, but also with facing pages documents and only when the left page and the right page have not a spread wide design:

                     

                    //// I did one mistake, I created a doument with a right binding, but it would work the same way with left binding.)

                     

                    1. Create a document with Facing Pages.

                    1-WireO-Bleed.png

                    2. Select the Spread in the Page Panel (Window > Page Panel) and in the panel’s flyout menu deselect "Allow Selected Spread to Shuffle". The spread’s page number will appear in brackets.

                    2-WireO-Bleed.png

                    3. Select a single page of the spread and drag it to the side until a vertical bar appears.

                    3-WireO-Bleed.png

                    4-WireO-Bleed.png

                    4. Now you have the result.

                    Left and right pages have their own spread and will have a bleed around each page without taking information from the other page.

                    5-WireO-Bleed.png

                    • 7. Re: Is There an Easier Way to Save a PDF for Perfect Binding?
                      rob day Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                      That was one of my concerns with the image that spans the spread is how to compensate for the creep.

                      Correctly allowing for creep in the pagelayout would be almost impossible. The creep amount is incremental based on where the page is in the signature, so you would have to know how the signatures will be laid out. Creep has to be handled by the printer's imposition software.

                      • 8. Re: Is There an Easier Way to Save a PDF for Perfect Binding?
                        Eugene Tyson Adobe Community Professional & MVP

                        For perfect bound book there is absolutely no reason to untick facing pages.

                         

                        Inside margins should be a little larger than the outside margins.

                         

                        But keeping it all as facing pages is preferred.

                         

                        The printers take care of the positioning of the pages, the creep, the bleed amounts etc. when they are imposing the job.