24 Replies Latest reply on Oct 23, 2014 10:42 PM by alexdejesus

    What Is Going On With This Forum??

    alexdejesus Level 1

      I just spent the last hour typing to start a new thread in the Premiere Hardware forum only to get an error when I submitted. This has happened three times now, and the page tries to recover itself, only to fail again.Forum Fail.jpg

        • 1. Re: What Is Going On With This Forum??
          alexdejesus Level 1

          This has happened to me several times now while trying to post threads. It just refuses to post when I submit and get this unexplained error. Is anyone else experiencing this??

          • 2. Re: What Is Going On With This Forum??
            cc_merchant Level 4

            WD Blacks or any other conventional spinning disk are never hindered by SATA 3G ports. They are just too slow to fully utilize the bandwidth of a SATA 3G port. SSD's are hindered by the bandwidth of the SATA 3G port. Heck, they are even hindered by a SATA 6G port.

             

            Soon we will all be looking at SATA 12G or SAS 3 ports as the only feasible path to the future.

            • 3. Re: What Is Going On With This Forum??
              alexdejesus Level 1

              SO, do you think the new X99 boards with the ten 6 GB ports are going to help me with these drives? The WD Blacks are rated 6 GBs. Is that a misnomer? I'm looking for any improvement at al.

               

              THe X99 supports just one of the new SAS type drives, which max out at 1 TB. Does it make sense to upgrade now? How long do you think before the new drive types become more main stream and affordable? I don't see the point of doing anything if my spinning drives are going to bottleneck anyway.

              • 4. Re: What Is Going On With This Forum??
                cc_merchant Level 4

                SAS3 12 G SSD's (Toshiba PX and Seagate 1200, both clearly consumer grade devices) are rapidly coming down in price, but you still need an Areca ARC-1883iX controller to fully utilize their speed and it is going to take some time to become economically feasible. Enterprise SAS3 SSD's are prohibitively expense. Upgrading from a 4930 to a 59x0 is not a major performance step, but a huge financial step.

                • 5. Re: What Is Going On With This Forum??
                  ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                  Mechanical drives themselves are not capable of using all of the bandwidth of the 6Gb/s ports so 12Gbs wont help much. The only difference you can see has to do  with caching to the drives. Once the cache buffer is full then the drive performance will normalize to what a standard mechanical drive can do which is around 120MB/s

                   

                  Eric

                  ADK

                  • 6. Re: What Is Going On With This Forum??
                    cc_merchant Level 4

                    The only sensible way to use SAS3 12G ports now, well in the near future, is with devices like this:

                     

                    Raid machine.png

                    • 7. Re: What Is Going On With This Forum??
                      alexdejesus Level 1

                      cc_merchant wrote:

                       

                      The only sensible way to use SAS3 12G ports now, well in the near future, is with devices like this:

                       

                      Raid machine.png

                      PLEASE help me understand this because I'm seriously lost. $20,000 to achieve '"up to a 30% performance gain..." That's a joke, right? only 30% gain? Over what? My existing system that I built 3 or 4 months ago has a 16 TB (4 x 4 TB) WD Black RAID 0 on board the ASUS P9X79-E WS motherboard with i7-4930K processor and 64 GB RAM. I achieve speeds of 500/350-ish read and write. In all my years I have never been able to play back a Premiere timeline smoothly. One single track of video with a Neat or Magic Bullet filter and my system is crippled. I'm so frustrated by the performance that I have considered upgrading the system I just built to the X99. I have been thinking it was a CPU or PCI lane problem. That, if I could only unleash the 6 GBs these drives are rated for, but that won't do it.

                       

                      Listen, I don't mind a hefty price tag. But I need to be sure it will produce results. At this point, according to all your benchmarks, it makes no sense to spend the $5-6 thousand upgrading to the X99 and keep my existing drives. This RAID machine ought to work with my existing X79 system, right? And at that price, I expect more like 300% improvement, not a measly 30%. Please tell me so.

                      • 8. Re: What Is Going On With This Forum??
                        cc_merchant Level 4

                        Neat and Magic Bullet are the crippling factors here, even on a quad E7 CPU system with 120 cores. No matter what hardware you throw at it, these plug-ins just don't thread well and bring every system to a halt.

                         

                        The 30% improvement is measured in terms of disk transfer rates in comparison to SATA 6G SSD's. SATA 6G effective transfer rates are in the best of circumstances around 550/520 MB/s. Using the same SSD's with SAS3 12 G ports increases transfer rates to around 715/675 MB/s and hence can achieve write speeds of 8000 MB/s in a large raid array.

                        • 9. Re: What Is Going On With This Forum??
                          alexdejesus Level 1

                          I Need to overcome that crippling factor. You mean to tell me that even with this $20,000 Areca setup, that i would experience the same performance issues Because of a filter? What's the point, then? And why hasn't anyone figured this out yet with all this benchmarking you do?

                           

                          i'm not a hobbyist. I'm getting into live streaming now, and the events that i cover require quick turn around. I have large amounts of existing footage that I've been waiting to edit and get online. and i need performance. I need to be able to guarantee my clients. It's fun building systems, but so far, I am producing amatuer results with the info I'm getting here

                          • 10. Re: What Is Going On With This Forum??
                            ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                            I have stated many times that 3rd party FX limit performance with applications such as Premiere and AE due to the threading model and they are not GPU accelerated through the hardware MPE engine. Red Giant plugins have been the most common showing this for a while. HDD performance only helps up to the point of ideal transfer rates and latency for the player/codec. Then any further performance is unused. You can take 2 SSD drives in a raid 0 and have ideal performance for most codecs used today. That is not a major expense but that is the limit of the performance gain.


                            Eric

                            ADK

                            • 11. Re: What Is Going On With This Forum??
                              alexdejesus Level 1

                              I like the idea of a separate controller that I can move from system to system as I upgrade. So, on the P9X79-E WS, I can expect substantial performance gain with a controller card and, say, four 1TB SSDs in RAID 0? How much gain performance-wise over my current drive setup on the onboard controller? From 500/350 to what?

                              • 12. Re: What Is Going On With This Forum??
                                alexdejesus Level 1

                                cc_merchant wrote:

                                 

                                The only sensible way to use SAS3 12G ports now, well in the near future, is with devices like this:

                                 

                                Raid machine.png

                                MAy I ask what website is this from? Is there a brand name here? Do they make smaller units That don't cost $2000? can you use the Areca card without that enclosure? How are the drives connected?

                                 

                                COme on, folks. Please don't leave me hanging with partial information. How do I go from using internal drives on a system board to using a RAID controller? Do internal drives attach to the controller, or is it only for external boxes?

                                • 13. Re: What Is Going On With This Forum??
                                  ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                  Raid 0 on a controller card normally wont show a performance difference unless the board has limited 6Gbs ports or limited bandwidth for the 6Gbs ports. Many X79 boards were limited in this way and you could only get the actual performance of 2x SSD drives in a raid 0. Any beyond that and the performance was significantly reduced for the amount of drives. The X99 boards don't have that issue so far atleast the ones I have tested.

                                   

                                  Eric

                                  ADK

                                  • 14. Re: What Is Going On With This Forum??
                                    alexdejesus Level 1

                                    so on the x79 board this card will only improve drive performance if connected to a large external RAID of SSDs? 24 drives? Will it do anything at all for my 4 internal WD Black drives? How about if I installed 4 SSDs in RAID?

                                    • 15. Re: What Is Going On With This Forum??
                                      alexdejesus Level 1

                                      The little order form above shows the SAS cable with SFF 8644 connectors. I take it that is for the external 24-drive enclosure. How do the internal SATA drives connect?

                                      • 16. Re: What Is Going On With This Forum??
                                        ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                        No the raid card is vastly better with parity and redundant raids even with 4 drives. Raid 0 however is so refined at this point with controllers and caching models that even onboard raids perform well. The 4 WD black drives would perform the same on the onboard controller versus the raid controller if configured in raid 0. If configured in raid 10 then they will perform better with the raid card. 4 SSD's will perform the same on raid 0 but only if there are 4x sata 6Gbs ports on that board with full bandwidth. Most X79 boards however did not have that on 1 controller like the X99. So the only way to raid 0 all 4 drives in 1 array was to software raid. The easy fix though was to get a raid controller card which did give 4x 6Gbs ports on the same controller with full bandwidth.

                                         

                                        Eric

                                        ADK

                                        • 17. Re: What Is Going On With This Forum??
                                          alexdejesus Level 1

                                          The RAID MACHINE enclosure - do they make a smaller version? maybe 12 drives, or even eight? Are they all rack able? Where is best to order from?

                                          • 18. Re: What Is Going On With This Forum??
                                            Bill Gehrke Most Valuable Participant

                                            cc_merchant wrote:

                                             

                                            SAS3 12 G SSD's (Toshiba PX and Seagate 1200, both clearly consumer grade devices) are rapidly coming down in price

                                             

                                            cc_,

                                             

                                            I have disagree that either of those two 12 G SSD's are consumer grade, both are referred to as enterprise SSD's. The Toshiba PX02SMF020 200GB unit is priced at $1066 and the Seagate 200 GB ST200FM0073 is $708.  Both are available in much large sizes.  The sequential Read rate of the Toshiba is a good 1100 MB/s, but a lousy 410 MB/s write rate.  The Seagate drive has a sequential read rate of 800 MB/s and a write rate of 640 MB/s.  Those are manufacturers numbers and sometimes they are quite optimistic.

                                            • 19. Re: What Is Going On With This Forum??
                                              cc_merchant Level 4

                                              Those write speeds make it consumer grade IMO.

                                              • 20. Re: What Is Going On With This Forum??
                                                alexdejesus Level 1

                                                Well, i'm glad that you can delete your own posts on here. I went on a bipolar rant earlier. Thanks to Eric's last post I decided against the Areca controller card and the 24- drive 'RAID Machine'. But, I'm beating a dead horse trying to learn how to go faster on my X79 board. This conversation is making more pessimistic than ever. I'm kind of stuck with the four WD Blacks for now. I'd have to mortgage my house to get 16 TB worth of SSDs. My RAID sitting in the 4 SATA 6Gb/s Marvell ports, which I understand is slower than the 6 Gb/s Intel ports. My system drive and cache drives are on the 6 Gb/s Intel ports. All that's left are the useless 3 Gb/s Intel ports. Where, then, would I put two additional SSDs? How does the eSATA port do with some kind of external drive?

                                                I can see where the X99 board gives you more real estate to place 6 Gb/s drives, but useless if the spinning drives cannot capitalize.

                                                • 21. Re: What Is Going On With This Forum??
                                                  ECBowen Most Valuable Participant

                                                  If the 6Gbs Intel ports are used then the 2x  SSD's need to go on the secondary 6Gbs controller on the board. The performance on the Marvell should be ok. The E-sata port is often tied to the  secondary controller which likely is the Marvell in this case. If you use the SSD's on the internal Marvell then I would not use the E-sata port unless you have to. It will take bandwidth  away from the 2 internal 6Gbs ports.

                                                   

                                                  Eric

                                                  ADK

                                                  • 22. Re: What Is Going On With This Forum??
                                                    alexdejesus Level 1

                                                    P9X79-E WS IRQ Assn.jpgMy RAID 0 is on the four Marvel ports, and I have an external eSATA drive plugged in that I use for storage backup. That should be okay as long as I'm not using that media during editing, correct? Or is just being plugged in to eSATA costing me resources? The chart above looks to me like the eSATA is Asmedia shared with the USB3 ports. Can't tell what the Marvel is shared with other than the PCIE (ALL OF THEM?)

                                                    • 23. Re: What Is Going On With This Forum??
                                                      Bill Gehrke Most Valuable Participant

                                                      Alex, here is my 8 drive 2.5" enclosure from Supermicro.  It takes two half-height slots (like two optical drives).  Works great.  They also offer 4-pack which is a single half-height slot.

                                                      • 24. Re: What Is Going On With This Forum??
                                                        alexdejesus Level 1

                                                        I see that, Bill. Thanks. The box is pretty inexpensive, but what goes in it can get pretty costly. I would have to see the gain in speed to justify that purchase. I see some other units on that site as well, hmm...

                                                         

                                                        How would something like this work? A chassis with built-in SAS enclosures? How do they connect?

                                                        Amazon.com: NORCO 2U Rack Mount 8 x Hot-Swappable SATA (I or II)/SAS Drive Bays Server Chassis RPC-2008: Computers & Acc…

                                                         

                                                        I found a couple of low profile 2 1/2" tall CPU coolers that look like they fit the case. I'm not sure I'd have difficulty with anything else in the system, except the 850W PSU