16 Replies Latest reply on Nov 9, 2006 9:11 AM by Newsgroup_User

    why not to use nested templates

    momagai
      We're considering using dreamweaver to build and manage our new site. (I am not new to dreamweaver, but haven't used it to manage a site, just to edit pages.) I found that it has nested templates, and thought "cool - that'll be handy." Then I look in the forums and again and again people are advised not to use them.

      Why not?

      And what are the alternatives?

      That is - are they buggy, or just confusing? What's so confusing?

      And here is the common scenario: you have a basic design, then several modifications to the design, and so you figure make a basic template, then a nested templates for each variation, then build your pages using the nested templates. If nested templates are not a good way to handle this, what is a better way?

      Thanks for your advice.
        • 1. Re: why not to use nested templates
          momagai Level 1
          By the way, if this has been covered in another post, could you please point me to it? Thanks.
          • 2. Re: why not to use nested templates
            Level 7
            I too have heard that nested templates are bad but I have used this method
            and had zero problems. It can be confusing at first but once I got used to
            it it turned out to be a great tool. That being said, I now know that
            includes and library items can eliminate the need for nested templates.


            "momagai" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
            news:eiqjf1$sp8$1@forums.macromedia.com...
            > By the way, if this has been covered in another post, could you please
            > point me to it? Thanks.


            • 3. Re: why not to use nested templates
              Level 7
              It's not that they are bad. If you are really comfortable with DW and
              Templates, you can use them successfully. But, they bring alot of complexity
              into your life, particularly if you are only marginally comfortable with
              DW/Templates.

              I have found now that I cannot construct a viable scenario under which I
              would be motivated to use nested templates. As you have pointed out, a bit
              of server scripting and include files lets me solve all those problems.

              --
              Murray --- ICQ 71997575
              Adobe Community Expert
              (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
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              "Pharaoh" <sneekler@verizon.net> wrote in message
              news:eiqknb$136$1@forums.macromedia.com...
              >I too have heard that nested templates are bad but I have used this method
              >and had zero problems. It can be confusing at first but once I got used to
              >it it turned out to be a great tool. That being said, I now know that
              >includes and library items can eliminate the need for nested templates.
              >
              >
              > "momagai" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
              > news:eiqjf1$sp8$1@forums.macromedia.com...
              >> By the way, if this has been covered in another post, could you please
              >> point me to it? Thanks.
              >
              >


              • 4. Re: why not to use nested templates
                Level 7
                > If nested templates are not a good way to handle this, what is a
                > better way?

                I use CSS/server-scripted pages to handle the variations. If I knew more
                about what are the modifications you think you need to the base layout, I
                could make better suggestions....

                --
                Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                Adobe Community Expert
                (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
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                "momagai" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
                news:eiqjcp$smi$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                > We're considering using dreamweaver to build and manage our new site. (I
                > am not
                > new to dreamweaver, but haven't used it to manage a site, just to edit
                > pages.)
                > I found that it has nested templates, and thought "cool - that'll be
                > handy."
                > Then I look in the forums and again and again people are advised not to
                > use
                > them.
                >
                > Why not?
                >
                > And what are the alternatives?
                >
                > That is - are they buggy, or just confusing? What's so confusing?
                >
                > And here is the common scenario: you have a basic design, then several
                > modifications to the design, and so you figure make a basic template, then
                > a
                > nested templates for each variation, then build your pages using the
                > nested
                > templates. If nested templates are not a good way to handle this, what is
                > a
                > better way?
                >
                > Thanks for your advice.
                >


                • 5. Re: why not to use nested templates
                  Level 7
                  "momagai" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote:

                  >We're considering using dreamweaver to build and manage our new site. (I am not
                  >new to dreamweaver, but haven't used it to manage a site, just to edit pages.)
                  >I found that it has nested templates, and thought "cool - that'll be handy."
                  >Then I look in the forums and again and again people are advised not to use
                  >them.
                  >
                  > Why not?
                  >
                  > And what are the alternatives?

                  I use nested templates, and I have no problems with them.

                  The one major disadvantage of templates (and this applies to any templates,
                  nested or not) is that if you change a template you have to reload every file
                  that uses that template, whereas if you define as much as you can using include
                  files, CSS, etc, you only have to change those files.

                  Despite this, I expect that for the forseeable future I will continue to use
                  templates to define the basic look and feel of my sites, though I will probably
                  move some of the 'prettification' to CSS. Even if this means uploading the
                  whole site occasionally, that's not really such a big deal.

                  Clancy
                  • 6. Re: why not to use nested templates
                    momagai Level 1
                    Thanks a lot for your replies. They should help us have a better-planned site than we do currently.

                    Though I don't know for sure, I expect the variations will be things like different navigation on the main and inner pages and additional navigation on the right on lower-level pages.

                    We hope to use includes and CSS as much as possible to avoid the uploading the whole site problem (which is a problem with our current site, which uses templates). I found the article on includes with template parameters and that sounds like a helpful method.

                    Mo
                    • 7. Re: why not to use nested templates
                      Level 7
                      Good luck!

                      --
                      Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                      Adobe Community Expert
                      (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
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                      http://www.dreamweavermx-templates.com - Template Triage!
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                      ==================


                      "momagai" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
                      news:eitomh$qsd$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                      > Thanks a lot for your replies. They should help us have a better-planned
                      > site
                      > than we do currently.
                      >
                      > Though I don't know for sure, I expect the variations will be things like
                      > different navigation on the main and inner pages and additional navigation
                      > on
                      > the right on lower-level pages.
                      >
                      > We hope to use includes and CSS as much as possible to avoid the uploading
                      > the
                      > whole site problem (which is a problem with our current site, which uses
                      > templates). I found the article on includes with template parameters and
                      > that
                      > sounds like a helpful method.
                      >
                      > Mo
                      >


                      • 8. Re: why not to use nested templates
                        momagai Level 1
                        Oh, and Murray, what kind of server scripting do you have in mind? I've done quite a bit of server-side programming so that might be a good solution.
                        • 9. Re: why not to use nested templates
                          Level 7
                          It wouldn't matter - PHP, ASP/VB, CF, .Net....

                          I have used this to dynamically select include files....

                          --
                          Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                          Adobe Community Expert
                          (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
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                          http://www.dreamweavermx-templates.com - Template Triage!
                          http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
                          http://www.dwfaq.com - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
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                          ==================


                          "momagai" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
                          news:eitp7n$rfj$1@forums.macromedia.com...
                          > Oh, and Murray, what kind of server scripting do you have in mind? I've
                          > done quite a bit of server-side programming so that might be a good
                          > solution.


                          • 10. Re: why not to use nested templates
                            Level 7
                            On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 18:42:50 -0500, "Murray *ACE*"
                            <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote:

                            >It wouldn't matter - PHP, ASP/VB, CF, .Net....
                            >
                            >I have used this to dynamically select include files....


                            Okay, you know I'm not an ASP'er, but somewhere in the foggy recesses of
                            my memory, there lurks the idea that ASP processes includes before
                            executing any of the VBScript. If that's correct, you couldn't use
                            VBScript to dynamically select an include file.

                            OTH, if that's just my senile dementia speaking, just point me to my
                            walker so I can go take a nap.

                            Gary
                            • 11. Re: why not to use nested templates
                              Level 7
                              You could be right - I know that PHP is t'other way 'round, though.

                              --
                              Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                              Adobe Community Expert
                              (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
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                              "Gary White" <gary@apptools.com> wrote in message
                              news:9ib6l29lhfkher3qg4quokds0g7na2ppav@4ax.com...
                              > On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 18:42:50 -0500, "Murray *ACE*"
                              > <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote:
                              >
                              >>It wouldn't matter - PHP, ASP/VB, CF, .Net....
                              >>
                              >>I have used this to dynamically select include files....
                              >
                              >
                              > Okay, you know I'm not an ASP'er, but somewhere in the foggy recesses of
                              > my memory, there lurks the idea that ASP processes includes before
                              > executing any of the VBScript. If that's correct, you couldn't use
                              > VBScript to dynamically select an include file.
                              >
                              > OTH, if that's just my senile dementia speaking, just point me to my
                              > walker so I can go take a nap.
                              >
                              > Gary


                              • 12. Re: why not to use nested templates
                                Level 7
                                On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 07:36:51 -0600, Gary White <gary@apptools.com>
                                wrote:

                                >On Wed, 8 Nov 2006 18:42:50 -0500, "Murray *ACE*"
                                ><forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote:
                                >
                                >>It wouldn't matter - PHP, ASP/VB, CF, .Net....
                                >>
                                >>I have used this to dynamically select include files....
                                >
                                >
                                >Okay, you know I'm not an ASP'er, but somewhere in the foggy recesses of
                                >my memory, there lurks the idea that ASP processes includes before
                                >executing any of the VBScript. If that's correct, you couldn't use
                                >VBScript to dynamically select an include file.
                                >
                                >OTH, if that's just my senile dementia speaking, just point me to my
                                >walker so I can go take a nap.
                                >
                                >Gary

                                But you can do it with Server.Execute. Same effect, different syntax.

                                Win
                                --
                                Win Day, Wild Rose Websites
                                http://www.wildrosewebsites.com
                                winday@NOSPAMwildrosewebsites.com
                                Skype winifredday
                                • 13. Re: why not to use nested templates
                                  Level 7
                                  On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 08:52:01 -0500, "Murray *ACE*"
                                  <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote:

                                  >You could be right - I know that PHP is t'other way 'round, though.


                                  Include is a native PHP directive. ASP, by my foggy memory, doesn't
                                  execute the include directive. IIS does it separately from the ASP
                                  parser. I guess, as Win says, there is a way to do it in ASP, but it
                                  doesn't use include.

                                  Gary
                                  • 14. Re: why not to use nested templates
                                    Level 7
                                    On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 07:45:56 -0700, Win Day
                                    <winday@NOSPAMwildrosewebsites.com> wrote:

                                    >But you can do it with Server.Execute. Same effect, different syntax.


                                    That's way beyond my very limited understanding of ASP, perhaps more
                                    than I ever wanted to know. ;-)

                                    Gary
                                    • 15. Re: why not to use nested templates
                                      Level 7
                                      I've already forgotten it.

                                      --
                                      Murray --- ICQ 71997575
                                      Adobe Community Expert
                                      (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
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                                      http://www.projectseven.com/go - DW FAQs, Tutorials & Resources
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                                      "Gary White" <gary@apptools.com> wrote in message
                                      news:ebj6l297hru986i9lquaspbs25m2pmncic@4ax.com...
                                      > On Thu, 09 Nov 2006 07:45:56 -0700, Win Day
                                      > <winday@NOSPAMwildrosewebsites.com> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >>But you can do it with Server.Execute. Same effect, different syntax.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > That's way beyond my very limited understanding of ASP, perhaps more
                                      > than I ever wanted to know. ;-)
                                      >
                                      > Gary


                                      • 16. Re: why not to use nested templates
                                        Level 7
                                        On Thu, 9 Nov 2006 11:04:42 -0500, "Murray *ACE*"
                                        <forums@HAHAgreat-web-sights.com> wrote:

                                        >I've already forgotten it.


                                        Forgotten what?

                                        Gary