14 Replies Latest reply on Nov 1, 2006 5:41 AM by Newsgroup_User

    MX 2004 vs 8

    zacks_mom
      I am a brand-new user of Dreamweaver for a company who has an exsisting website in Dreamweaver 8. Our local Community College is offering a class on beginning MX 2004. Would this class help me to use 8?
        • 1. Re: MX 2004 vs 8
          Level 7
          IMHO, taking a class on Dreamweaver is pointless, to some extent. You really
          need to learn the basics: HTML and CSS. Dreamweaver is a great tool once you
          have those mastered. From what I hear - normally classes that teach
          Dreamweaver teach how to use it by means of "Design View" - which I'd stay
          far, far away from.

          You're probably better off grabbing a book on HTML (no reccomendations) and
          CSS (anything by Eric Meyer) - and then dip into Dreamweaver. As for
          learning Dreamweaver - set aside a couple hours and fiddle your way around.

          I honestly wouldn't invest money in a course...

          --
          Shane H
          shane@NOSPAMavenuedesigners.com
          http://www.avenuedesigners.com

          =============================================
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          "zacks_mom" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
          news:ei5sif$6i9$1@forums.macromedia.com...
          >I am a brand-new user of Dreamweaver for a company who has an exsisting
          >website
          > in Dreamweaver 8. Our local Community College is offering a class on
          > beginning
          > MX 2004. Would this class help me to use 8?
          >


          • 2. Re: MX 2004 vs 8
            Level 7
            I really agree with this. If you know HTML and CSS well enough to be
            comfortable in it, then DW will be a walk in the park.

            --
            Murray --- ICQ 71997575
            Adobe Community Expert
            (If you *MUST* email me, don't LAUGH when you do so!)
            ==================
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            ==================


            "Shane H" <shane@NOSPAMavenuedesigners.com> wrote in message
            news:ei5t3h$75v$1@forums.macromedia.com...
            > IMHO, taking a class on Dreamweaver is pointless, to some extent. You
            > really need to learn the basics: HTML and CSS. Dreamweaver is a great tool
            > once you have those mastered. From what I hear - normally classes that
            > teach Dreamweaver teach how to use it by means of "Design View" - which
            > I'd stay far, far away from.
            >
            > You're probably better off grabbing a book on HTML (no reccomendations)
            > and CSS (anything by Eric Meyer) - and then dip into Dreamweaver. As for
            > learning Dreamweaver - set aside a couple hours and fiddle your way
            > around.
            >
            > I honestly wouldn't invest money in a course...
            >
            > --
            > Shane H
            > shane@NOSPAMavenuedesigners.com
            > http://www.avenuedesigners.com
            >
            > =============================================
            > COMING SOON - Infooki [unboxed]:
            > http://infooki.sourtea.com/
            > Web Dev Articles, photography, and more:
            > http://sourtea.com
            > =============================================
            > Proud GAWDS Member
            > http://www.gawds.org/showmember.php?memberid=1495
            >
            > Delivering accessible websites to all ...
            > =============================================
            >
            >
            > "zacks_mom" <webforumsuser@macromedia.com> wrote in message
            > news:ei5sif$6i9$1@forums.macromedia.com...
            >>I am a brand-new user of Dreamweaver for a company who has an exsisting
            >>website
            >> in Dreamweaver 8. Our local Community College is offering a class on
            >> beginning
            >> MX 2004. Would this class help me to use 8?
            >>
            >
            >


            • 3. Re: MX 2004 vs 8
              Level 7
              On 10/30/06 5:12 PM, "Murray *ACE*" wrote:

              > I really agree with this. If you know HTML and CSS well enough to be
              > comfortable in it, then DW will be a walk in the park.

              For what it's worth, I'll add my agreement as well.

              I knew html and css for years before I ever touched Dreamweaver. I picked up
              nearly all of what I needed to know about DW in less than a day, because all
              I really had to learn was where the various menus and commands were located,
              and figure out how to set up my preferences to suit my way of working.

              If you know how to rebuild an engine, you won't have trouble using any tools
              you may acquire. But if you don't know how to rebuild the engine, the best
              tools in the world, and all the tool-using training you can find, won't make
              you a mechanic capable of rebuilding an engine.

              Don't "learn" Dreamweaver. Learn HTML and CSS. They're the engine; DW is
              just one tool among many.

              --
              Sonjay



              • 4. Re: MX 2004 vs 8
                Level 7
                "Shane H" <shane@NOSPAMavenuedesigners.com> wrote:

                >IMHO, taking a class on Dreamweaver is pointless, to some extent.
                >
                >You're probably better off grabbing a book on HTML (no reccomendations) and
                >CSS (anything by Eric Meyer) - and then dip into Dreamweaver. As for
                >learning Dreamweaver - set aside a couple hours and fiddle your way around.

                A couple of months would be much more like it!

                I would try to get some feedback on the course from people who have done it. It
                is impossible to learn HTML, let alone CSS, without being able to practise
                endlessly, which means you have to be able to drive Dreamweaver, and that is
                another very steep learning curve. I believe that there are simpler programs,
                but they are much less flexible, and do not produce good code. (And they also
                have a very steep learning curve.)

                I did buy Eric Myer "On CSS" in a weak moment. I must have been overly
                influenced by the back cover blurb, because I find his style so irritating that
                I have never been able to spend more than five minutes trying to read it.

                Clancy
                • 5. Re: MX 2004 vs 8
                  Level 7
                  On Tue, 31 Oct 2006 13:33:47 +1100, Clancy <clancy@cybec.com.au>
                  wrote:

                  >"Shane H" <shane@NOSPAMavenuedesigners.com> wrote:
                  >
                  >>IMHO, taking a class on Dreamweaver is pointless, to some extent.
                  >>
                  >>You're probably better off grabbing a book on HTML (no reccomendations) and
                  >>CSS (anything by Eric Meyer) - and then dip into Dreamweaver. As for
                  >>learning Dreamweaver - set aside a couple hours and fiddle your way around.
                  >
                  >A couple of months would be much more like it!
                  >
                  >I would try to get some feedback on the course from people who have done it. It
                  >is impossible to learn HTML, let alone CSS, without being able to practise
                  >endlessly, which means you have to be able to drive Dreamweaver, and that is
                  >another very steep learning curve. I believe that there are simpler programs,
                  >but they are much less flexible, and do not produce good code. (And they also
                  >have a very steep learning curve.)
                  >

                  Ah, but the point is to learn HTML and CSS by producing your OWN code,
                  not by allowing an application (any application) to produce it for
                  you.

                  I started in Homesite, when it was still owned by Allaire. You could
                  start in Notepad. Doesn't matter. The idea is to learn the CODE, not
                  the application.

                  I've been doing this for almost 6 years. There are still lots of
                  DW-specific things I'm learning, especially for server-side stuff.

                  Win
                  --
                  Win Day, Wild Rose Websites
                  http://www.wildrosewebsites.com
                  winday@NOSPAMwildrosewebsites.com
                  Skype winifredday
                  • 6. Re: MX 2004 vs 8
                    Level 7
                    On 10/30/06 9:33 PM, "Clancy" wrote:
                    > It is impossible to learn HTML, let alone CSS, without being able to practise
                    > endlessly, which means you have to be able to drive Dreamweaver

                    The point is to learn HTML and CSS *outside of* Dreamweaver. There are free
                    text editors for every computing platform. Get one. Install it. Make it your
                    friend.

                    Then, practice your HTML and your CSS in your text editor. That way, you're
                    learning HTML and CSS. You simply don't concern yourself with driving
                    Dreamweaver right off the bat.

                    Pretty soon you can use HTML to code paragraphs, divs, tables, ordered and
                    unordered lists, etc., and you can use CSS to set your margins, paddings,
                    borders, background colors, etc. You reach a point where it's so easy and
                    obvious, you wonder why it ever seemed difficult or complex.

                    NOW you're ready to learn to drive Dreamweaver. And there'll be nothing to
                    it. All you need to learn is things like where's the button for an unordered
                    list, where's the command to insert a table, and where's the stylesheet
                    panel. Easy-peasy. A day, or an afternoon, and you're good to go.

                    --
                    Sonjay



                    • 7. Re: MX 2004 vs 8
                      Level 7
                      OK, I'll be a voice of dissent in this thread. I think Dreamweaver courses
                      can hold a lot of value for beginners.

                      I learned my HTML and CSS as I was learning DW and many others do too.

                      You can produce reasonable websites through DW's Design View and
                      point-and-click interface.

                      Naturally, the more proficient you are at the core underlying skills of HTML
                      and CSS, the more competent you become and the better, and more
                      sophisticated, your websites will be.

                      I think Dreamweaver classes are worthwhile but I would prefer to learn on
                      the version of DW that you have installed.

                      My preference is for an online course such as those available at Lynda.com
                      http://movielibrary.lynda.com/html/modListing.asp?pid=2

                      --
                      Regards

                      John Waller


                      • 8. Re: MX 2004 vs 8
                        Level 7
                        Win Day <winday@NOSPAMwildrosewebsites.com> wrote:

                        >> ......
                        >>I would try to get some feedback on the course from people who have done it. It
                        >>is impossible to learn HTML, let alone CSS, without being able to practise
                        >>endlessly, which means you have to be able to drive Dreamweaver, and that is
                        >>another very steep learning curve. I believe that there are simpler programs,
                        >>but they are much less flexible, and do not produce good code. (And they also
                        >>have a very steep learning curve.)
                        >
                        >Ah, but the point is to learn HTML and CSS by producing your OWN code,
                        >not by allowing an application (any application) to produce it for
                        >you.

                        Zacks_mom doesn't say whether she is proficient in HTML or CSS, but if she isn't
                        she hasn't got a hope in hell of maintaining an existing commercial web site in
                        a remotely realistic timeframe. If she is, then a good course (if one exists!)
                        would be her best bet for getting up to speed reasonably quickly. On the other
                        hand it would probably be better to hire a consultant for a few weeks, and go
                        through the web site with him.

                        >I started in Homesite, when it was still owned by Allaire. You could
                        >start in Notepad. Doesn't matter. The idea is to learn the CODE, not
                        >the application.

                        I wrote a successful commercial antivirus software program (it is the one now
                        used in CA's security packages) from scratch, in assembler. But I was learning
                        to fight viruses at the same speed the baddies were learning how to write them.
                        Five years later it would have been completely impossible for a newcomer to have
                        broken into the field unaided, regardless of his skill or choice of software.
                        And no one today would even dream of using assembler for anything, with the
                        possible exception of the most basic building blocks of an operating system.
                        Using notepad to maintain an existing web page would represent a similar level
                        of insanity.

                        >I've been doing this for almost 6 years. There are still lots of
                        >DW-specific things I'm learning, especially for server-side stuff.

                        Zacks_mom's boss hasn't got six years to wait for her to learn how to maintain
                        his web site. And I expect most of the programmers working on Dreamweaver, or
                        Photoshop, understand a small portion of the program really well, and have a
                        reasonable understanding of how the various modules interact, but have only a
                        vague idea of the details of many of the other modules.

                        Clancy
                        • 9. Re: MX 2004 vs 8
                          Level 7
                          Clancy wrote:


                          > I did buy Eric Myer "On CSS" in a weak moment. I must have been overly
                          > influenced by the back cover blurb, because I find his style so irritating that
                          > I have never been able to spend more than five minutes trying to read it.

                          Probably a fair reflection in the light that Eric doesn't really get
                          involved in that many commercial projects. Hes has a reputation of being
                          reasonable at css (or he used to have) but its css that mainly pushes
                          the boundaries. A lot doesnt work cross browser. Youre much better of
                          just taking down other commercial sites you like and disassembling their
                          css to learn.

                          • 10. Re: MX 2004 vs 8
                            zacks_mom Level 1
                            thank you all for your input
                            i do not know html or css, so i will start there
                            those classes are offered a well
                            luckily the website is function fine and i have stumbled upon the areas that need to be updated every so often, so i'm limping along
                            • 11. Re: MX 2004 vs 8
                              Level 7

                              "Clancy" <clancy@cybec.com.au> wrote in message
                              news:1mcdk29in25uus52epscsjr6brb1sksrkm@4ax.com...

                              > I would try to get some feedback on the course from people who have done
                              > it. It
                              > is impossible to learn HTML, let alone CSS, without being able to practise
                              > endlessly, which means you have to be able to drive Dreamweaver, and that
                              > is
                              > another very steep learning curve.

                              "Driving Dreamweaver" is nothing but pointing and clicking. If you
                              understand HTML and CSS, and the basics of web page construction, it's easy
                              to figure out which buttons to click.

                              > I did buy Eric Myer "On CSS" in a weak moment. I must have been overly
                              > influenced by the back cover blurb, because I find his style so irritating
                              > that
                              > I have never been able to spend more than five minutes trying to read it.

                              And a balancing opinion: I've found Eric's books to be very clear,
                              well-written, and and straightforward and highly recommend them.


                              --
                              Patty Ayers | www.WebDevBiz.com
                              Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
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                              • 12. Re: MX 2004 vs 8
                                Level 7
                                Clancy wrote:
                                > I did buy Eric Myer "On CSS" in a weak moment. I must have been overly
                                > influenced by the back cover blurb, because I find his style so irritating that
                                > I have never been able to spend more than five minutes trying to read it.

                                For a long time, Eric Meyer was the *only* authority on CSS. Now, there
                                are several others who design and write well: Andy Budd and Simon
                                Collison spring to mind. Christopher Schmitt seems to be highly
                                regarded, but I couldn't stand the only book of his that I bought.

                                However, the best way to learn CSS is to understand the cascade and
                                interaction of style rules. I never got more than about half way through
                                "Eric Meyer on CSS", but it's probably the book that taught me most.
                                Why? Not because of Eric's designs or writing style, but because I saved
                                the stylesheet after every single change and reloaded the page in a
                                browser. It was a very long-winded process, but it showed me the impact
                                of each single rule. If you do that with any CSS book, you'll learn a
                                lot more than simply copying out a whole style block.

                                --
                                David Powers
                                Adobe Community Expert
                                Author, "Foundation PHP for Dreamweaver 8" (friends of ED)
                                http://foundationphp.com/
                                • 13. Re: MX 2004 vs 8
                                  Level 7
                                  Sonjay <my-name@mindspring.com> wrote:

                                  >On 10/30/06 9:33 PM, "Clancy" wrote:
                                  >> It is impossible to learn HTML, let alone CSS, without being able to practise
                                  >> endlessly, which means you have to be able to drive Dreamweaver
                                  >
                                  >The point is to learn HTML and CSS *outside of* Dreamweaver. There are free
                                  >text editors for every computing platform. Get one. Install it. Make it your
                                  >friend.

                                  >Then, practice your HTML and your CSS in your text editor. That way, you're
                                  >learning HTML and CSS. You simply don't concern yourself with driving
                                  >Dreamweaver right off the bat.

                                  You are still pushing Assembler. Anything moderately complex very quickly
                                  requires a lot of code, and trying to balance braces, etc, becomes exceedingly
                                  difficult. Dreamweaver, with its split view, makes it easy to work in HTML, yet
                                  see the effect of your changes immediately. Some of the new touches in 8 make
                                  it easier still, though the design view still tends to jump round erratically.

                                  >NOW you're ready to learn to drive Dreamweaver. And there'll be nothing to
                                  >it. All you need to learn is things like where's the button for an unordered
                                  >list, where's the command to insert a table, and where's the stylesheet
                                  >panel. Easy-peasy. A day, or an afternoon, and you're good to go.

                                  Yes. And like 99% of office workers using Word, you will use about 5% of the
                                  programs features. Dreamweaver is a rich but very complex program, and a person
                                  who learns by trial and error will never discover most of its more subtle
                                  features. And, like me with spaces, they may well fall into bad habits which
                                  will come back to bite them later.

                                  Clancy
                                  • 14. Re: MX 2004 vs 8
                                    Level 7

                                    "Clancy" <clancy@cybec.com.au> wrote in message
                                    news:5s0gk258i3dsgvurkr65m1icfjmuhuqfo8@4ax.com...

                                    > Dreamweaver is a rich but very complex program, and a person
                                    > who learns by trial and error will never discover most of its more subtle
                                    > features. And, like me with spaces, they may well fall into bad habits
                                    > which
                                    > will come back to bite them later.

                                    I don't know - I've never had any formal training, and neither have the
                                    excellent web developers I know, and we don't have any of those problems. We
                                    learned the way Win Day, Clancy and Murray are describing, and went on to
                                    run web dev companies, write books, and teach other people how to use
                                    Dreamweaver.


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                                    Free Articles on the Business of Web Development
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