19 Replies Latest reply on Dec 7, 2014 2:32 PM by icfives

    outlined text not retaining color fill in PDF saved in InD 6

    icfives Level 1

      After typing a word, creating outlines, then adding an outline stroke (say 1 pt), the original color fill does not appear in the  PDF version as I preview it in Acrobat Pro. The word appears as outline only.

       

      I have to go back and place the same word (before outlining) over the outlined version so it 'appears' as filled in the subsequent PDF.

       

      I have attached a screen capture. This image shows the red word, KINGDOM, was outlined but I laid the red text (not outlined) over it (in InD) to make it appear as being filled in the PDF. The blue words, ETERNAL and POWER, are also outlined and filled in InD but I did not overlay them (like KINGDOM), to show the appearance in the PDF.

       

      I also attached a screen capture of the original InD doc with same text as outlined (stroke 1pt) which looks correct here before saving as PDF.

       

      The word MINISTRIES is not outlined. It is original text.

       

      This did not occur in 5.5 as I recall. Any ideas? Is this an InD setting I missed or pref in Acrob Pro?  thanks

       

      icfives

       

      no fills InDes.pngfills InDes.png

        • 1. Re: outlined text not retaining color fill in PDF saved in InD 6
          MW Design Level 4

          Looks to me that there isn't a fill. It looks like in the ID version the stroke makes it appear filled in but in Acrobat it is displaying more accurate. Just a guess, though.

           

          If you select the outlined text, and with the fill proxy selected in the swatch panel, is there a swatch connected to the text?

           

          Mike

          • 2. Re: outlined text not retaining color fill in PDF saved in InD 6
            icfives Level 1

            thanks Mike for feedback. Here are screen captures more accurately depicting your concerns. These are InD outline texts with swatch pallet indicator for each. One shows the red KINGDOM text (not outlined) overlap which I used to lay over the outlined KINGDOM which was not filling in the PDF. The red KINGDOM then appeared as filled in in the PDF even though the outlined text underneath was truly not filled in.

             

            As the swatches indicate, the fill is there in blue and red outline versions before saving PDF.

             

            On another flyer project, same issue happened with a larger word. To solve that one, I took the bkgd into Pshop and added text there, bringing back into InD, which resolved it. But as you know, it's not as feasible to add a particular stroke width in Pshop, for same desired result, as in InD. So this solution is not preferable.

             

            Hope this helps...   icfives

             

            InD text fill.pngInD text fill2.png

            InD text fill3.png

            • 3. Re: outlined text not retaining color fill in PDF saved in InD 6
              MW Design Level 4

              Hmm. I guess I would need to see a sample file with the text outlined. I cannot get it to fail. Screen shot is from Acrobat after exporting the PDF.

               

              Note that the top text lines (magenta outline, black fill) is live text (as shown by selecting the ER letters). The lower text lines are after converting to curves (OK, ok, outlined text. Dumb term though) and changing the stroke and fill color.

               

              capture-002345.png

               

              BTW, what font are you using? It isn't an "open face" font is it?

               

              Mike

              • 4. Re: outlined text not retaining color fill in PDF saved in InD 6
                icfives Level 1

                Wellll.... I see where you're going with this and I believe you're on to something. I hope you can follow my screen shots.

                First indicates the font - Bauer Text Initials, only one weight which is NOT 'open face' that I can tell.

                Second is InD indicating font as outlined and filled/stroked with yellow.

                Third is Acrobat indicating word is indeed filled unlike the Bauer Text blue behind it.

                Fourth is Fusion Bauer Text info

                Fifth is Fusion Frutiger info

                Sixth is Fontographer Lefty font in yellow outlined displayed in Acrobat (still filled, unlike BauerT).

                Seventh is Fusion Lefty info.

                Even though I've used only two different fonts as test, I'm willing to believe it's something with the Bauer Text structure (?) that's not allowing the fill to be read by a PDF.

                Far as I can see in Fusion, BText is a bitmap font, not a Type 1 or Truetype. Suitcase Fusion indicates it's a Fontographer Postscript. I also attached capture of Fusion specs FYI.

                Whereas Frutiger, the yellow font (MINISTRIES) tested here, is Adobe Postscript font (capture attached)

                Further, I tested another Fontographer font (Lefty) against BauerText for consistency. But it filled. It's the squirrely looking font. Also sent Fusion capture of it's info.

                So must be bug-a-boo with Bauer Text?

                If this is true, then I'm glad it's the font rather than InD or Acrobat.

                Now that you have raised this angle, perhaps other fonts exist with this strangeness?

                 

                thanks again for feedback....   icfives

                 

                InD font selection.pngInD text yellow.png

                InD text yellow2.pngFusion BauerText.png

                Fusion Frutiger.pngInD text Lefty.png

                Fusion Lefty.png

                • 5. Re: outlined text not retaining color fill in PDF saved in InD 6
                  icfives Level 1

                  Sorry, I got the second and third screen capture descriptions reversed in last reply.

                  The second screen is of PDF in Acrobat.

                  Third screen is in InD..

                   

                  thanks    icfives

                  • 6. Re: outlined text not retaining color fill in PDF saved in InD 6
                    Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                    There is only one single and correct answer:

                     

                    DON'T OUTLINE TEXT!

                    • 7. Re: outlined text not retaining color fill in PDF saved in InD 6
                      MW Design Level 4

                      It's the only time I have seen your problem happen. It's not ID.

                       

                      I would swap out the font for Trajan. If all you are doing is adding a fake weight by the 1pt outline, Trajan Bold likely will work just fine.

                       

                      Mike

                      • 8. Re: outlined text not retaining color fill in PDF saved in InD 6
                        icfives Level 1

                        In this case, some fonts, like Bauer Text, only have one weight, no Light, Medium, Bold etc. So when using it where heavier weight is needed, only way to achieve that is to outline and add stroke. I've had to do this with other fonts with no problem in InD or Acrobat.

                        I believe it is this particular font that has this outline issue.

                        Also most all printers require fonts to be outlined in most cases even if in a PDF. This avoids any font issues during ripping and other printer production.

                        thanks for feedback...   icfives

                        • 9. Re: outlined text not retaining color fill in PDF saved in InD 6
                          icfives Level 1

                          Now that I'm seeing this particular issue with Bauer Text, I will know how to deal with it in future. I just wanted to be clear it wasn't InD or PDF. Trajan is a close substitute. Since Bauer is already established as part of this logo, it will need to remain.

                          Perhaps in future flyers (with this logo), I could save as jpg only which eliminates the outline issue.

                           

                          thanks...   icfives

                          • 10. Re: outlined text not retaining color fill in PDF saved in InD 6
                            Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                            If you need to outline the font, you should do it in Illustrator, not in InDesign, as the handling of the stroke is more flexible there. You can place it in InDesign as AI file.

                            • 11. Re: outlined text not retaining color fill in PDF saved in InD 6
                              icfives Level 1

                              That's good idea. Having been a dyed-in-wool Freehand (now extinct) user, I still find some intuitive reluctance in Illust. But to their credit, Illust has made efforts to assimilate FHand features. I do use it when necessary. But as result I try to get by as much as possible with InD and Pshop.

                              Certainly this could be an instance where Illust is more suited than InD. Thanks for tip....  icfives

                              • 12. Re: outlined text not retaining color fill in PDF saved in InD 6
                                Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                InDesign font converting can cause a loss of information or even letters, the frame, bullets, underlines, rules are lost any way.

                                But for thus task Illustrator is better, as it would not be needed to convert it neither, as Illustrator allows a lot of manipulation, including pathfinder commands with live text.

                                And when it comes to strokes and fill, in Illustrator you can add to the same path or text several strokes and several fills with different colors, widths, transparency settings, effects, etc which would be live updated when the text changes. This is a huge time saver over doing it in InDesign. I do a lot of flyers and posters for evangelical groups in Germany and Austria and I have always open InDesign, Bridge, Illustrator, Photoshop and Acrobat as I exchange my work between those programs all the time.

                                • 13. Re: outlined text not retaining color fill in PDF saved in InD 6
                                  icfives Level 1

                                  Thanks for the Illust tips. Another local designer who uses Illust more than I and works at local tshirt screener, told me about this Illust plugin.

                                   

                                  Interesting to hear your experience. I also have done several projects for local ministries mainly evangelical and some non profits. Love the work.

                                   

                                  Are you aware of this plugin, if so, what do you think of it? His samples of it looked pretty impressive. I'm sure I will have Illust questions. Are you in the Illust discussion group as well? Sounds like you know quite a bit about it.

                                   

                                  Phantasm plugin for Adobe Illustrator - Astute Graphics

                                  • 14. Re: outlined text not retaining color fill in PDF saved in InD 6
                                    Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                    No, I can't use so much plugins from external sources as I often get software before its time. 3rd party plugins are at that time only rarely updated to work with these versions, so I try to do everything in creation without plugins. Different issue is, when it comes to produce final things, which helps to export or to convert content. But I think this plugin might help to get some vector output which is now only as rasterized result possible.

                                    • 15. Re: outlined text not retaining color fill in PDF saved in InD 6
                                      Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

                                      icfives wrote:

                                       

                                      In this case, some fonts, like Bauer Text, only have one weight, no Light, Medium, Bold etc. So when using it where heavier weight is needed, only way to achieve that is to outline and add stroke. I've had to do this with other fonts with no problem in InD or Acrobat.

                                      I believe it is this particular font that has this outline issue.

                                      Also most all printers require fonts to be outlined in most cases even if in a PDF. This avoids any font issues during ripping and other printer production.

                                      thanks for feedback...   icfives

                                       

                                      Two thoughts:

                                       

                                      (1)     You don't need to outline text to be able to “thicken” a font. The solution is actually very, very simple. When you select the color for the text, preferably using a paragraph or character style if necessary, also set a color for the stroke and a stroke width. This will call the text to be filled and stroked without the massive damage that the outline process will do. And you don't need to use Illustrator to do this. And quite frankly, Illustrator's mechanisms for font outlining aren't effectively any different or better than InDesign's.

                                       

                                      (2)     It is absolutely not true that “most all printers require fonts to be outlined in most cases even if in a PDF.” In fact, I know of absolutely no reputable printer with such a requirement! As Adobe's representative to a number of print industry associations as well as chair of ISO TC130 WG2/TF2, the ISO committee responsible for PDF/X, I can assure you that absolutely no international or regional print association considers such outlining as appropriate PDF print publishing workflow practice or condones it. Any print service provider who requires such outlining or even believes that it somehow resolves some problems is clearly highly misinformed, relying on bubbameissas from the past and/or is using some very questionable workflow practices (such as opening every received PDF file in Illustrator to “fix” them). Our advise is to avoid any printer with such outlandish requirements for text outlining (and you can quote me!)

                                       

                                                - Dov

                                      • 16. Re: outlined text not retaining color fill in PDF saved in InD 6
                                        Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                        Illustrator can transform forms of single letters in a way without outlining the font which would be not possible in InDesign. Even pathfinder commands like add, intersect, etc. are possible on live text. And in Illustrator you can apply several strokes to a single text even with effects and transparency, that is why I recommended to make this task in Illustrator.

                                        • 17. Re: outlined text not retaining color fill in PDF saved in InD 6
                                          Danny Whitehead. Level 4

                                          I actually said 'Dov' before opening the thread, and we even got an appearance of my new favourite Yiddish word.

                                           

                                          When you select the color for the text, preferably using a paragraph or character style if necessary, also set a color for the stroke and a stroke width. This will call the text to be filled and stroked without the massive damage that the outline process will do.

                                          I've wondered about this before, but does font hinting survive the application of a stroke? I've never quite understood how font hinting is coded, but I thought it only applied to the characters in their original form.

                                          • 18. Re: outlined text not retaining color fill in PDF saved in InD 6
                                            icfives Level 1
                                            (1) You don't need to outline text to be able to “thicken” a font. The solution is actually very, very simple. When you select the color for the text, preferably using a paragraph or character style if necessary, also set a color for the stroke and a stroke width.

                                            Thanks Dov. I agree for the most part. However, with BauerText (not sure why), to stroke that font w/o outlining generates bizarre tangents off the serifs, unlike other serif fonts I tried. This is why I had to outline BText and stroke for heavier weight. This entire exercise is revealing several things, mainly that BText does not bode well with stroke & fill at least for PDFs.

                                             

                                            (2)     It is absolutely not true that “most all printers require fonts to be outlined in most cases even if in a PDF.”

                                            This may be the case nowadays. However in earlier days, any printer/service bureau I worked with, all wanted fonts converted to outline. Either that or supply the fonts for that particular job. Matter of fact, they detested Truetype fonts. Would not accept them. But technology has improved.

                                            • 19. Re: outlined text not retaining color fill in PDF saved in InD 6
                                              Willi Adelberger Most Valuable Participant

                                              Here in Germany many printers, even all online printers require to outline fonts in their specification on their web page. But most of them accept correct PDF files with embedded fonts. When I ask them why they require it, they say, it is because many people deliver files with the free fonts which many use which cannot be embedded but they have no problem with accepting correct files, their specifications are only a wrong simplification.

                                              • 20. Re: outlined text not retaining color fill in PDF saved in InD 6
                                                icfives Level 1

                                                Yes. I'm sure the printers are taking the most common denominator with customers to assure proper results. Also agree... local printers here prefer embedded fonts for PDFs. Going back/forth with edits or font adjustments can be both time consuming and interfere with production schedules. It's true with all the thousands of fonts out there (some not properly created), surely some will not rip properly w/o outlining I would suppose.

                                                • 21. Re: outlined text not retaining color fill in PDF saved in InD 6
                                                  Dov Isaacs Adobe Employee

                                                  Our experience is that if a PDF file with fonts embedded can be viewed properly in either Adobe Reader or Adobe Acrobat, the chances are infinitesimal that the fonts will cause problems on any RIP using either Adobe PostScript of the Adobe PDF Print Engine technologies given that they use the same font rendering technology as Acrobat (and for that matter, InDesign, Illustrator, and Photoshop)! I believe you would find the same thing to be true for RIPs using Global Graphics' Harlequin technology.

                                                   

                                                  Old legends die hard! This includes the snobbery associated with Type 1 fonts versus TrueType fonts associated with the infamous “font wars” of the early 1990s. It is not whether a font is in Type 1, TrueType, or OpenType which is the issue in terms of quality or rendering, but the care given in creating the font by the font foundry.

                                                   

                                                  Unfortunately, it is this misinformation, lack to education on the part of print service providers, and snobbery that causes the print industry many problems, including an extreme lack of credibility!!

                                                   

                                                            - Dov

                                                  • 22. Re: outlined text not retaining color fill in PDF saved in InD 6
                                                    icfives Level 1

                                                    thanks Dov. As I was first learning computer (Mac) along with graphics software at the time (early 90s), I could not afford the inflated prices of all the weekend seminars ($500+) teaching all these programs and operating systems. However, I did one or two free, one day versions.

                                                     

                                                    Of course one really has to take a class for any true benefit. Weekend seminars really don't accomplish much when steeper learning curves are involved.

                                                     

                                                    Consequently, I learned as best I could through manuals, bugging more accomplished computer friends, printers and service bureaus. That was my learning process. To my encouragement, most said I was learning quite quickly considering my situation.

                                                     

                                                    I'm sure, it would have been during this method of learning, I would come to learn things like converting fonts to outlines etc before sending files to printers. Truetype was extremely problematic. And yes, there was definitely a sense of arrogance in the air between Mac & IBM at that time. Not to support arrogance, but Mac was definitely superior (intuitive) graphically speaking. Now things have become more equal with operating systems and software. Not that I've had personal experience with PC/Windows to know the difference, but this is what I've heard.

                                                     

                                                    Since I'm not in a daily office environment or other consistent exposure to more current methodologies and computer savvy, I would agree that, to some extent, things learned (as I did) are not always the latest knowledge. Many my age have long since retired from computer designing or completely.

                                                     

                                                    That's not me. I still feel 40 and intend to continue with exciting graphics projects with realization that I don't have to be a computer expert to achieve this. This is, in large part, why I'm thankful for Adobe support through these groups. I'm quite amazed how quickly some answers appear. I would have thought perhaps days or more.

                                                     

                                                    Appreciate your feedback.   icfives